The Religion of Mother Goose

M

Medicine*Woman

Jesus: Mythstory--Not History!
Valued Senior Member
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M*W: Has anyone ever noticed the hidden messages in Mother Goose Nursery Rhymes and Walt Disney animations? The hidden messages were written so that the Roman Catholic Church would be none the wiser.

A few come to mind:

Mary, Mary, quite contrary,
How does your garden grow?
With silver bells, and cockle shells,
And little maids all in a row.

Who was this Mary? Mary Magdalene, of course! She was the Mary who was seen in the garden by the tomb, and she is the progenitor of the Merovingian Dynasty. Silver bells could mean the Catholic Church, cockle shells represents life, and little maids are nunneries.

Mary, had a little lamb,
It's fleece was white as snow,
And everywhere that Mary went,
Her lamb was sure to do.

Again, Mary Magdalene, wife of Jesus. Mary fled to Southern France, and Jesus went with her and their children.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall,
All the Kings horses, and all the Kings men,
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

There are two possible meanings: Humpty Dumpty represented the King of England, possibly Henry VIII, but the rhyme implies the kingdom fell. I suspect that Humpty Dumpty might mean the Pope.

Snow White and the Seven Dwarves

Snow White signifies Mary Magdalene, and the Seven Dwarves represent the seven areas of southern France called Septimania, where Mary Magdalene and her family sailed to. The wicked witch, who offered Snow White the 'poison apple', of course, is the Catholic Church. Snow White could only be awakened (resurrected) by a kiss from the Prince (Jesus), implying Mary Magdalene and Jesus were lovers.

Another version of Snow White and Rose Red refers to Snow White as Mary Magdalene and Rose Red, the Catholic Church. Two bitter opponents!

Ring around the roses,
Pocket full of posies,
Ashes, Ashes,
We all fall down.

This was a game played by children during the Black Plague. They carried a pocket full of fresh flowers to ward off the stench of the dead corpses.

Anybody else remember any other questionable nursery rhymes?
 
M*W:

With the exception of one, all of your ideas here have no supporting evidence. Just because the name in the stories is "Mary" doesn't mean it's any sort of Biblical Mary. You're really stretching it.

Of course, the "Ring around the Roses" rhyme is not Mother Goose or Disney, as you well know, so why are you lumping it in with the rest?
 
TheERK: M*W:

With the exception of one, all of your ideas here have no supporting evidence. Just because the name in the stories is "Mary" doesn't mean it's any sort of Biblical Mary. You're really stretching it.

Of course, the "Ring around the Roses" rhyme is not Mother Goose or Disney, as you well know, so why are you lumping it in with the rest?
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M*W: ERK, You're wrong. I did not make these up. I read them somewhere, on a website I believe. I just think it is interesting how they have hidden messages. Look it up for yourself.
 
Medicine Woman said:
M*W: ERK, You're wrong. I did not make these up. I read them somewhere, on a website I believe. I just think it is interesting how they have hidden messages. Look it up for yourself.
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I'm not critiquing them because you wrote them, I'm just critiquing them for their content. Therefore, it doesn't matter who made them up--I still find the connections flimsy at best.

Perhaps you could provide a link to your source?
 
I agree with TheERK. I think you're drawing a VERY long bow here, Medicine*Woman.
 
Why you two (erk and James) say it is a strectch it brings about an even bigger point. The fables in mother goose when "intrepreted" can have a spirtuality injected into them. Decide that they are not fables at all but that they really happened and you have stories very similar to Noah's Arc, parting to the red sea, resurrection of Jesus ect ect.

I read in Michael Shermer's book "How we believe" a part where Shermer says we are pattern seeking animals and as such we can:

1) find a pattern that is correct and id it as such
2) find a pattern that is false and id is as such
3) find a pattern that is false and id it as correct
4) find a pattern that is true and id it as false.

The breakdown he alluded to is when we don't preform the second part of the forumula and assess weather the pattern is correct or incorrect (or make a valid attempt to).

What we know about Mother goose is"

1) it has the ablity to spirtualy intrepreted
2) it has never been disproven that the characters did not really exist based on fables of
3) that the parts in the book could not be based on reality

Knowing this maybe the mother goose fables do have a commonality with the Bible. The bigger question could be what is the formula for writing a set of fables that sway a large percentage of the populations perceptions of the world and intrepretations of morality?
 
Remember one thing, these fables are ancient. I read somewere one time (damn I can't remember the name in English) LOL. La Caperusita Roja. I thing is little red riding hood. Anyhow; the story tells of the big wolf swallowing her, and then comming out again. this was interpreted something like the sun going in at night, and rising again the morning.

Anyhow the fables are the way people of ancient times past stories, there were very few people who knew how to read or write, so most of these stories were passed on by word of mouth. By the telling of religious Text to children it could perhaps that these old fables were a way to explain to children biblical text. Streching it I know.

Mom has a book, "1001 tales" in spanish, all these stories are supposedly told by an old Arab man who was a slave, and he was ordered by a king, to tell them, to keep his children entertained. Many of these stories do come out in that book.

Weird. :eek:

G.
 
Um Mary, Mary, quite contrary,I'm fairly sure was probably based on Mary I (bloody Mary) the catholic monarch who burned Protestants. Silver Bells and cockle shells being instruments of torture (or pilgrimage) and pretty maids all in a row either being nuns or as I once heard the graves of stillborns she had as she couldn't conceive a child. The interpretation probably depends on whether you are catholic or not.
 
BobG: Um Mary, Mary, quite contrary,I'm fairly sure was probably based on Mary I (bloody Mary) the catholic monarch who burned Protestants. Silver Bells and cockle shells being instruments of torture (or pilgrimage) and pretty maids all in a row either being nuns or as I once heard the graves of stillborns she had as she couldn't conceive a child. The interpretation probably depends on whether you are catholic or not.
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M*W: BobG, you're probably right about this. I think Mother Goose dealt with ancient British governments. I can't remember when I actually read about the hidden meanings. I just thought of another one: Old King Cole -- he was supposed to be an ancient king of England, but I forget just when it was in history.

Old King Cole was a merrie old soul,
And a merrie old soul was he,
He called for his pipe, and he called for his bowl,
And he called for his fiddlers' three.

Now, the buzz words here are 'merrie', 'soul', 'pipe,' 'bowl,' and 'fiddlers' three.'

As in Robin Hood and His 'Merrie' Men, 'merrie' referred to (who else?) Mary Magdalene! 'Pipe' and 'bowl' are more confusing, but I think they refer to hedonistic pleasures. I also wonder if 'fiddler's three' refers to the 'trinity?'

There was a book out several years ago called The Annotated Mother Goose. I read it at the bookstore, but I didn't buy it.

I do appreciate your comments.
 
I'm not sure of the etymology here, but you're pushing it again to make merry men and Mary Magdalene connected. It's like saying Son of God is related to the Sun. Languages have altered and it's ludicrous to think that modern similarities were the same hundreds f years ago.

And, how any other Mary's are there? Well, one pretty famous Mary would be the virgin Mary. Wouldn't it be more likely for these Mary's to refer to her?
 
invert_nexus: I'm not sure of the etymology here, but you're pushing it again to make merry men and Mary Magdalene connected.
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M*W: Like I've stated, I did not make these things up. I've read about the hidden meanings that were written to make fun of the Catholic Church.
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invert_nexus: It's like saying Son of God is related to the Sun.
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M*W: Exactly! That's how the "Son of God" came to be!
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invert_nexus: Languages have altered and it's ludicrous to think that modern similarities were the same hundreds f years ago.
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M*W: I totally agree! But, when linguists studied ancient literature, they can be interpreted to mean something other than what was the original intent. My point exactly! What I've read is that a lot of these old nursery rhymes and stories poked fun at the RCC in hidden meanings.
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invert_nexus: And, how any other Mary's are there? Well, one pretty famous Mary would be the virgin Mary. Wouldn't it be more likely for these Mary's to refer to her?
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M*W: Yes, the most 'famous' Mary would be the BVM. HOWEVER, as shown in art and literature from DaVinci own down, the BVM was used as a cover-up for MM. The hidden meanings that we are now learning show MM to be the greater of the two Marys. The RCC concealed this, but the great artists and writers of the world exposed the greater Mary to be MM and not the BVM of the RCC.
 
Medicine Woman said:
Old King Cole was a merrie old soul,
And a merrie old soul was he,
He called for his pipe, and he called for his bowl,
And he called for his fiddlers' three.

Now, the buzz words here are 'merrie', 'soul', 'pipe,' 'bowl,' and 'fiddlers' three.'

As in Robin Hood and His 'Merrie' Men, 'merrie' referred to (who else?) Mary Magdalene! 'Pipe' and 'bowl' are more confusing, but I think they refer to hedonistic pleasures. I also wonder if 'fiddler's three' refers to the 'trinity?'
Click to expand...

M*W, you have to realize that not everything that sounds like "Mary" is actually referring to a Biblical Mary. You've already pointed out the hedonism aspect, so why not interpret it the obvious way? Merry is happy, and happiness is what hedonism about.

Also, you seem to think that the Holy Trinity has some sort of monopoly on the number three. You cannot assume, every time you see the number three, that it is a reference to the Biblical Trinity.
 
Um Mary, Mary, quite contrary,I'm fairly sure was probably based on Mary I (bloody Mary) the catholic monarch who burned Protestants. Silver Bells and cockle shells being instruments of torture (or pilgrimage) and pretty maids all in a row either being nuns or as I once heard the graves of stillborns she had as she couldn't conceive a child. The interpretation probably depends on whether you are catholic or not.
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Eww, I don't think I'll ever say that rhyme to kids any time soon, lol.


invert_nexus: It's like saying Son of God is related to the Sun.
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M*W: Exactly! That's how the "Son of God" came to be!
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Heh, so what about all those people before Jesus like someone named Jack who was the Son of Billy Bob? Was Jack and the millions of other sons in the world called "sons" because of the "sun"? I doubt it. A son is just that, a son. And yes, you're stretching it with "merry" and "merrie" as well.

- N
 
TheERK: M*W, you have to realize that not everything that sounds like "Mary" is actually referring to a Biblical Mary. You've already pointed out the hedonism aspect, so why not interpret it the obvious way? Merry is happy, and happiness is what hedonism about.

Also, you seem to think that the Holy Trinity has some sort of monopoly on the number three. You cannot assume, every time you see the number three, that it is a reference to the Biblical Trinity.
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M*W: And I don't assume such things. Having read about some of the well-known fairy tales having references to MM, I think it's an interesting topic.

The number 3 does not always refer to the trinity. I don't believe in the trinity nor in christianity. The number 3 to me is more synonymous with Maiden, Mother and Crone.

All I'm saying is that some things are not always what they seem. I like to look for the hidden meanings -- hidden meanings are rampant in literature and art.
 
First off, links still don't work. For some reason they seem to point to http:///
Did you do some weird url=http:/// or something? If you don't want to give them a title, you don't need a url=anything. If you just type in the address with no accompanying tags, it should tag it automatically.

Like I've stated, I did not make these things up. I've read about the hidden meanings that were written to make fun of the Catholic Church.
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Lots of speculation on stuff. However, I'm certainly not qualified to poopoo the work. But, it sounds doubtful to me.

Exactly! That's how the "Son of God" came to be!
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Now think about that... How is that possible? Do you find it likely that son and sun are homonyms in Hebrew? In Aramaic? In Greek? In Latin? I seriously doubt it. Didn't we cover this before a long time ago?

I totally agree! But, when linguists studied ancient literature, they can be interpreted to mean something other than what was the original intent. My point exactly! What I've read is that a lot of these old nursery rhymes and stories poked fun at the RCC in hidden meanings.
Click to expand...

It's certainly possible. Many nursery rhymes are also holdovers from pagan worship. A possible means of hanging on to forbidden doctrine.

Yes, the most 'famous' Mary would be the BVM. HOWEVER, as shown in art and literature from DaVinci own down, the BVM was used as a cover-up for MM. The hidden meanings that we are now learning show MM to be the greater of the two Marys. The RCC concealed this, but the great artists and writers of the world exposed the greater Mary to be MM and not the BVM of the RCC.
Click to expand...

It's really a shame that the the church did such a good job of eradicating evidence of both former pagan religions and whatever else it deemed heretical (such as the possibility of Mary Magdelene being the wife of Jesus, etc...) Basically, they did such a good job that there's really no chance that anybody is really right about their guesses. It's like theorizing on what the druids were like. The knowledge was absolutely eradicated.

The church has a lot to answer for (as if they ever will.) but, knowledge cannot be summoned into existence from nowhere. One can theorize all day long, but where's the proof? Maybe in the secret vaults of the vatican?
 
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