The rejection of Eden

[Quantum Quack]

My view,

The ability to reject "eden" is the ability to achieve self determination, thus free will.

The story of the "apple" is all about having the courage to stand up and make a decision even in the face of severe retribution.
God as such new exactly what choice Adam and Eve would make and as a parent does when he sees his children start to make decisions for them selves no doubt smiled to himself and thought...Job well done.

Adam and Eve are an analogy of the creation of free will and the ability to reject Gods (parental) generousity so as to create a life of your own.

Also it may be worth noting that by getting Adam and Eve to be freewilled also meant that God also achieved a greater degree of freedom in that like a parent, to have to make decisions always for your children binds the parent to the child and therefore when the children leave the nest the parents achieve greater freewill themselves. So in reflection God has given himself free will.
Hmmmm.......interesting concept...yes?

The rest of the writings in the bible show the continual struggle to finally achieve the state of freewill. It shows us clinging to our parents (God), reluctant to let go and be self suficient and determined.

It also shows that in reflection God is also struggling to achieve his own state of freewill and self determination ( notion only)

What say you?

 

[and2000x]

I think the concept is the same as outlined in Paradise Lost. Now do yourself a favor, and stop reading the Bible, it's trashy literature.

 

[Hevene]

I never read the bible, but heard some of it in bits and pieces.
I think it has great truth, but many misinterpretations. It is written long time ago when people's understanding of life is incomplete, and in the world today, there is a need to expand on what is already in the bible, remove the parts that nolonger works and add in the bits that will help to create a better world. It is foolish to believe the words in the bible completely, and in fact it is the bible and many other organised religion that had created the worlds problems. Things such as separation of humans, the use of violence in the name of god etc. It said that god had created human in the image and likeness of him/her/it, but think back to the time when it is written and open your mind, is it possible that we had created god in the image and likeness of us???? A god of hatred, fear, jealousy, a god with needs that must be met or else (hell) etc. Why would god do that, isn't god love? Why would love do such thing? If god is almighty, why would he need anything???

To Quantum Quack
You said: It also shows that in reflection God is also struggling to achieve his own state of freewill and self determination ( notion only)
This I think is all made up by us, god doesn't struggle, he/she/it doesn't need to. Everything is god, therefore god doesn't need anything, god have everything already. The only reason why we had started to think like this is because we imagined a lesser god, and imagined a god that is similar to us, ie we believed that we are somehow less. We kept on reducing ourself. But we are all one, ie we and god are one, we and everything else around us are one (made up of the same stuff and connected through the interchange of energy)

 

[Quantum Quack]

we know that the universe is evolving. We often refer to it as "God" so therefore "God" is also evolving.

Even though i have no bible i know that the new testament suggests that God has evolved from the hateful and venge full God of the old testament. If one looks at the bible with the evolution of God in mind then one can see that man has sensed this evolution.
To day God is also different to 2000 years ago, mankind reflects this.

So does the universe "God" evolve or not?

 

[Hevene]

God was never hatefull and vengefull, it was all made up by us, to create a society which uses this as a tool to restrict us. However, god is changing, just like we are changing, we are creating god through what we experience, we are god experienced. But god is always love, love is all there is, we think god was not love, because we were not love thousands of years ago (even today), therefore our understanding of god was limited long ago, but that doesn't mean god is limited. We are evolving, but god is changing.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Hevene,

May be I am wrong to point this out but earlier you have said that we suffer a state of separateness to God and this is to our detriment.

And yet you say that God "changes" and we "evolve", you have now only reinforced the belief of separateness that you mentioned.

We are either one with God as a reality (truth) and only our beliefs stand in the way or we are not one with God and our beliefs are irrelevant.
I don't wish to sound confrontational I only wish to stimulate further discussion.

 

[Hevene]

God changes as we changes, cause life is change. (god are we experienced) We are all made up of atoms, atoms made up of subatomic particles, they are moving all the time, changing, therefore everything is changing, constantly. But when we live a life in a world of the relative, we evolve, what i mean is that we evolves around a circle of life ie become knowing, become aware of god. When we fully do, we may choose to go back and the whole process begins again.
There is really no contradiction here, if you understand why we are here, in a world of the relative. Put it simply, in the absence of which that is not, which that is ... is not. God is love, that's all. But god only know love, but cannot experience it, because there's nothing but love. So there it is, the big bang where everything is created, the here and the there, the up and the down, love and fear, hot and cold etc, but everything is created so that we can experience what we really are, and decide every moment, who we want to be, and the world of the relative allows us to do that. In the world of the relative god changes as we evolve around the circle of life, but really god is just love.

ps. I like discussion for the difference in opinions ie the which that I am not allows me to experience who I am, which is great!!! and I'm loving it!!!

 

[Quantum Quack]

Hevene,

Do you see any value in the original questions about the rejection of the analogy called Eden?

Do you consider the writings of "God experienced" of any validity in the spiritual evolution of the "God experienced".

The reason for this question is that if man is "God experienced" then the writings of "God experienced" are valid, possibly criptically and distorted but valid all the same?

The reason alsio I discuss this is that like with most insprirations that man has the first inspiration leads on to the development of that inspiration.

The book of Genisis could be considered teh initial inspiration and everything afterwards written only being the development of that inspiration.

The inspiration of the creation of freewill in the evolution of man had a beginning and is still being developed even now.

I propose that the bible and with history in general we can see the development of our ( thus Gods) ability to be self determined.

Do you see any value in this proposal?

 

[Hevene]

The book of Genisis could be considered teh initial inspiration and everything afterwards written only being the development of that inspiration.

Do you think god had stopped talking to us???? Do you think that new inspiration is not possible??? Many do believe that, and look what happened? We haven't changed our basic beliefs for thousands of years.

Do you consider the writings of "God experienced" of any validity in the spiritual evolution of the "God experienced".

If I got this question correct, I think it is valid as this is the purpose of life. (many may think this is stupid, but any new ideas were considered like that at first)

I propose that the bible and with history in general we can see the development of our ( thus Gods) ability to be self determined.

We had always been able to be self determined, just that now we can do more with our technology and mind. But nevertheless, the ability was there long ago.

What I had been saying doesn't really match the original question, but I was just following the flow of this conversation.

Do you see any value in this proposal?

Of course I do, I am offering new ideas, offering someone new possibilities to see thing clearer. May be I'm not doing a very good job, and since it seems you don't want me to go on with this, may be you would like to read the source where my ideas came from. It's called "Conversations with God" and "the new revalations" by Neale Donald Walsch.

In love and light

 

[Quantum Quack]

many years ago what we chose to do or say was very dependent on what we thought God wanted. In many areas this still occurs.

How ever today in many parts of the world we are now making our decisions on what we want to do or say wiith out direct referrence to any ideology. To me this means that we are becoming more and more reliant on our own judgement and not that of some old writings or belief systems based on our interpretation rightly or wrongly on what god may or may not want.

This to me indicates the rise of greater self determination thus free will.

Years ago we had no oportunity to communicate with the rest of the world with telecommi=unications and the internet etc. This has given us greater choice that we are able to determine for oursleves.

Our technological evolution allows for greater self determination and choice.

Our intellectual development has lead to the greater quest of "Why is this so?" A greater ability to understand ourselves and our environment, a greater ability to reject ideology and dogma and hopefully in the future a greater sense of peace and prosperity for all. Again all leading to greater choice and self determination.

So in my view our ability to reject Eden ( even metaphorically) was the first religious step on the path to self determination and free will.

I do agree with you that belief is our greatest obstacle and this is just my point. People have believed that the Eden incident is about sin and this belief has lead religion and mankind on a merry dance for thousands of years.

If one can understand that Eden was about God and mankind achieving the grace of freewill then it all seems to make a little more sense. The need for religion, the need for contradiction, the need for so much pain and suffering as we strive for our self determination and free will evolution.

This is not a belief or even knowledge this is just an observation and an idea that I am , with your help, exploring.

 

[Mucker]

Now do yourself a favor, and stop reading the Bible, it's trashy literature.

Excuse me And200x! lol

The story of the "apple" is all about having the courage to stand up and make a decision even in the face of severe retribution.

I hope you're joking Quantum Quack! It seems to me the story of the apple shows how 'God' forbade something, which humanity then did, and thus they were cast from paradise. I beleive it shows the importance of following rules etc.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
The ability to reject "eden" is the ability to achieve self determination, thus free will.

It also shows that in reflection God is also struggling to achieve his own state of freewill and self determination ( notion only)

What say you?
----------
M*W: I agree. What this means to me is that God is the human race, and it is our struggle to achieve total independence from our Earthly limitations while evolving toward our all-powerful spiritual destiny.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
we know that the universe is evolving. We often refer to it as "God" so therefore "God" is also evolving.

Even though i have no bible i know that the new testament suggests that God has evolved from the hateful and venge full God of the old testament. If one looks at the bible with the evolution of God in mind then one can see that man has sensed this evolution.
To day God is also different to 2000 years ago, mankind reflects this.

So does the universe "God" evolve or not?
----------
M*W: Yes, QQ, as the human race evolves, so does God.

 

[Mucker]

Originally posted by Quantum Quack

We know that the universe is evolving. We often refer to it as "God" so therefore "God" is also evolving.

Even though i have no bible i know that the new testament suggests that God has evolved from the hateful and venge full God of the old testament. If one looks at the bible with the evolution of God in mind then one can see that man has sensed this evolution.
To day God is also different to 2000 years ago, mankind reflects this.

So does the universe "God" evolve or not?
----------

Posted by Medicine Woman

M*W: Yes, QQ, as the human race evolves, so does God.

I disagree! I would say God (like the mind, which he too posesses) is eternal and so god himself does not evolve, rather the human understanding of him evolves, as humanity itself becomes closer and closer to him, and begins to understand him more and more. It is for this reason it seems quite likely that all of humanity was neccessary for what has become, because no doubt early societies missed some of Gods teachings, which later societies have discovered, etc. and even though the two sides warred (and continue to war), because they have both equally wronged each other, those who make up the sides will have their judgement one day; thus each persons conscience shall be their guide.

I wonder if any of you had the task of creating a world whereby other 'beings' (or souls) could be given life, if you would do as good a job?! Is it not innevitable that some souls will abuse the world, however would you expect to be held responsible? But to then not give the souls free-will (within the environment) would be to withdraw judgement from the world, and the souls. One could not place souls in order of merit then; one could not judge souls who have no control over their actions!

I think if there was a better way to do things it would have been done!

p.s. Incidentally notice in a spherical world we have two sides!!! I'm sure you can all see the psychological factors they represent.

 

[Hevene]

Originally posted by Mucker

I disagree! I would say God (like the mind, which he too posesses) is eternal and so god himself does not evolve, rather the human understanding of him evolves, as humanity itself becomes closer and closer to him, and begins to understand him more and more.

I agree, otherwise, god seems to be limited, and god is not.
However, I don't agree with your comment about giving us free will then place a judgement on our choice. God does not place a judgement, but humans do. We say if that is right or that is wrong based on our understanding of what things should be like. But god created all the possibility so that we are able to experience whatever we choose to experience, decide who we want to be.

Originally posted by Medicine Woman

Even though i have no bible i know that the new testament suggests that God has evolved from the hateful and venge full God of the old testament. If one looks at the bible with the evolution of God in mind then one can see that man has sensed this evolution.

What is in the bible is written by human, interpreted by human, and because of our not so "perfect" understanding, the words in bible does not reflect the truth.