"The Public has a right to know"

BenTheMan

Dr. of Physics, Prof. of Love
Valued Senior Member
Julian Assange, of wikileaks has, in the past, released reams of documents regarding the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. Today, he's released internal comuniques between US embassies regarding (as I understand it, please correct me) such things as negotiations about the new START treaty, internal assessments of the situation in the middle east, and even day to day (mostly uninteresting) accounts of happenings in various embassies. I would post some links to CNN, but you guys are clever enough to do your own google searches.

The question is this: to what degree is the statement "The Public has a right to know" true?

I can buy this argument from people concerned about, say, civilian casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq. I can buy the argument from people who want a public record of the behind-closed-doors decisions which have real consequences in terms of human lives in those countries. Certainly, if you think that the current US conflicts are immoral, then you agree that full disclosure of such documents is important in establishing motive.

That's fine, and while I don't necessarily agree with you, I can understand your point.

However, releasing confidential diplomatic cables is a different story. Negotiations regarding, say, the START treaty are in everybody's best interest. The US and Russia have established a very fragile status quo, I think, which is in the interest of the US, Russia, and the rest of the world. Releasing such documents, in my opinion, can only serve to destabilize that relationship. Let me put it another way---if the common goal is to reduce the number of nuclear weapons in the world, then the two people who have the most nuclear weapons need to eliminate those stockpiles. (This is true, and cannot be argued.) If they are to reduce the number of nuclear weapons, they have to trust each other enough to reduce their stockpiles bilaterally---that is to say, the US isn't going to suddenly decide to decommission all of our nuclear deterrent without the Russians making similar commitments. Then, what good does a document release like this really do, other than splash communications which were never meant to be public across the front pages of newspapers around the world? Such an action seems to be wholly counter-productive to the nuclear disarmament process, in my mind.

At the heart of the issue is this---to what extent does the "public's right to know" conflict with other goals? To what extent should the public's "right to know" be curtailed, when it clearly conflicts with things like public safety, or world peace? Given that, is the release of documents which could reduce safety across the globe by destabilizing relationships between nuclear powers a good idea?

I probably won't comment in this thread, but I will keep up with it. I also want to point out that it doesn't necessarily matter what the actual content of the document dump is---I was interested in more of a theoretical discussion about the general issue.
 
I'm a believer in full disclosure and transparency. I do not want someone else to decide what I am entitled to know. When the government wants to hide something from me, they are violating my rights as their constituent to know what actions they are taking as my representative. I would prefer a representative who is above board rather than one who criminalises political activities and then tries to escape accountability for his actions by suppressing the release of information about his actions.

Note that in all cases it is the public which suffers, whether as a consequence of the actions or as a consequence of the leaks. In any case, the public has a right to know why they suffer and who is accountable for the suffering.
 
Say your son was in the CIA or KGB and their "cover" was blown by these leaks and their lives were in peril, would that be a good thing for them?
 
Say your son was in the CIA or KGB and their "cover" was blown by these leaks and their lives were in peril, would that be a good thing for them?

Yeah, if your occupation is that of a torturer and killer you can hardly use occupational hazard as a justification for non-disclosure. What if my son was a victim of the CIA or KGB? Wouldn't I want to know where his body was buried, even if it was a nameless skeleton in a mass grave?
 
Two different things there SAM, so you wouldn't mind that your son would be killed if he had his "cover" blown just to keep others in line?
 
Two different things there SAM, so you wouldn't mind that your son would be killed if he had his "cover" blown just to keep others in line?

No, I'm not a believer in undercover operations with no transparency. There is a reason that cops and soldiers wear uniforms.
 
@cosmictraveler

question to you. What if the CIA agent was a double agent and evidence of his involvement in a planned nuclear attack on his own country was leaked?

Would the public have a right to know?

In Saudi Arabia, the king has suppressed all information pertaining to the wikileaks from being released to the press. What do you think of that?

WikiLeaks? Not in Saudi Arabia
When the nation's foremost paper has no place on its pages for a story that has not only captivated the world but has Saudi Arabia at its center, something is awry.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/wikileaks-not-in-saudi-arabia-1.327674

Does the public have a right to know?
 
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I'm a believer in full disclosure and transparency.
It's one thing to disclose illegal actions and illegal deals made behind closed doors. It is legal and ethical to report crimes. I also feel it is ethical to expose lies by revealing truths.

However, It's entirely something else to reveal confidential and candid conversations, personal assessments, private information, and private negotiation proceedings. Particularly when done with complete disregard for consequence and for no specific reason.

To expect that any government can can operate without the protection of privacy and discretion is terribly naive.

~Raithere
 
What if the CIA agent was a double agent and evidence of his involvement in a planned nuclear attack on his own country was leaked?

Would the public have a right to know?

But again you fail to understand my point. Whether whatever happens, is it right to leak this confidential information if a persons life is at risk? Your question is about something else that would be different from my question.
 
It's one thing to disclose illegal actions and illegal deals made behind closed doors. It is legal and ethical to report crimes. I also feel it is ethical to expose lies by revealing truths.

However, It's entirely something else to reveal confidential and candid conversations, personal assessments, private information, and private negotiation proceedings. Particularly when done with complete disregard for consequence and for no specific reason.

To expect that any government can can operate without the protection of privacy and discretion is terribly naive.

~Raithere

Is it really? Is it naive to believe that public servants can operate with transparency? What would you consider are the advantages of secrecy over transparency in public service? As for "confidential and candid" conversations, do such things exist when one works for the people? Can a person invoke the right to privacy for speech or action as a political representative or a public servant?
 
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Is it really? Is it naive to believe that public servants can operate with transparency?
I believe it is naive to think that anyone can. Much less a public servant that has to navigate a volatile, vast, and massively complex political landscape of conflicting interests. This isn't to say that the official actions of government shouldn't largely be transparent. But I find the notion of complete transparency to be something that could only exist in a non-human world. It's rather like communism that way, a nice notion in theory but utterly unrealistic and inapplicable to human society.

What would you consider are the advantages of secrecy over transparency in public service?
I think this is obvious. If you find your mother-in-law overbearing, judgmental, and a bit scatter-brained do just blurt it out to her and your husband? What would happen if your confidential conversation with a friend about your difficulties in managing a relationship with her was exposed word for word? Would you ever be honest about your relationships again to this friend who betrayed your confidence?

As for "confidential and candid" conversations, do such things exist when one works for the people? Can a person invoke the right to privacy for speech or action as a political representative or a public servant?
Yes. Politicians should not be judged based upon what they say but upon what they do and the outcome of those actions.

~Raithere
 
I believe it is naive to think that anyone can. Much less a public servant that has to navigate a volatile, vast, and massively complex political landscape of conflicting interests. This isn't to say that the official actions of government shouldn't largely be transparent. But I find the notion of complete transparency to be something that could only exist in a non-human world. It's rather like communism that way, a nice notion in theory but utterly unrealistic and inapplicable to human society.

I think this is obvious. If you find your mother-in-law overbearing, judgmental, and a bit scatter-brained do just blurt it out to her and your husband? What would happen if your confidential conversation with a friend about your difficulties in managing a relationship with her was exposed word for word? Would you ever be honest about your relationships again to this friend who betrayed your confidence?

Yes. Politicians should not be judged based upon what they say but upon what they do and the outcome of those actions.

~Raithere

So according to you, the relationship of the politician with the constituent is that of one friend to another or that of a daughter in law to a mother in law? I beg to differ. I have trained people and employed them and believe me, I do not treat them the way I would a friend or a mother in law. I believe that representatives of the people are working for the people, they are not friends or in-laws. Do you treat your employer or employee with the same latitude as you would a spouse?

I think we should encourage transparency in politics and when it comes to the embarassment of state representatives exposed as lying left right and center and the preservation of their "privacy" well, I know which way I lean. I can dump an indiscreet friend but what will I do with a government that lacks all credibility?
 
There are a couple of things

1) yes undercover cops and informats need to be protected. Do spies have the same right? I don't know

2) just because its not criminal doesn't mean its not important. For instance there was a state government report on cutting the budget. Now because it was leaked budget decisions are judged against that report
 
So according to you, the relationship of the politician with the constituent is that of one friend to another or that of a daughter in law to a mother in law?
No, you missed the point which is that we cannot navigate social situations without discretion. Complete disclosure of every conversation and opinion is damaging to any social relationship. Even more so when it is a political relationship.

I think we should encourage transparency in politics and when it comes to the embarassment of state representatives exposed as lying left right and center and the preservation of their "privacy" well, I know which way I lean. I can dump an indiscreet friend but what will I do with a government that lacks all credibility?
It really depends upon what's being revealed. I don't see any point in revealing much of what recently came up on Wikileaks. For example, how does this in any way improve an already difficult situation:

There was no immediate comment from Turkish officials, and perhaps understandably so: The Turkish government led by Erdogan has been assessed harshly in the cables. Washington is increasingly worried that Turkey, which has the second largest military force in NATO, ceases to be a reliable partner as the government is divided and its key members are ideologically driven or even incompetent, the cables reveal.

Erdogan handed several top party and government positions to members from his old Muslim fraternity and has isolated himself from outside information by listening almost exclusively to a group of "sycophantic (but contemptuous) advisers." Ahmet Davutoglu, Turkey's foreign minister, is being described as a die-hard Islamist and "exceptionally dangerous." Turkey has the second-larges military force in NATO and is considered a stable U.S. Ally.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2010/11/29/Europe-reacts-to-WikiLeaks-expose/UPI-25771291063609/

Or what good does revealing this do anyone:

“Among the Wikileaks shockers are the descriptions of Silvio Berlusconi as "feckless, vain, and ineffective as a modern European leader", French prez Nick Sarko as a "naked emperor" and Iranian supremo Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as "Hitler". “
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/29/wikileaks_shocker/

Does it improve the government somehow to know that these things were stated? Does it improve the global political situation or does it make things more difficult? What's the moral imperative that makes it important to reveal such comments?

~Raithere
 
Finding the real story

One of the things about the WikiLeaks saga that puzzles me is that, as the spokespeople, journalists, and talking heads have all gone on about it, I'm still unsure why anyone is shocked by the contents of these leaks. What is disconcerting to me is the scale of the leaks, the idea that people are, either for disgust or want of fame, actually delivering this much information to WikiLeaks.

What the leaked documents actually reveal or suggest, however, isn't particularly spectacular to me. Unreported civilian deaths? Not what I would call a big shocker. A plan to spy on UN officials? Not what I would call a big shocker. Demeaning and possibly contemptuous rhetoric about other world leaders? Not what I would call a big shocker. Arab nations with an interest encouraging us to kick the shit out of Iran? Not what I call a big shocker.

In other words, I haven't heard anything that surprises me, except for the idea that over a half-million pages of "secret" American documents have been so easily delivered to an organization like WikiLeaks. The occasional leak here and there is expected, but this is a pretty big cache of documents. And that surprises me, at least mildly.

Which is, I think, possibly the real story here.

I mean, really, who is surprised by the idea that the U.S. has hidden, downplayed, or perhaps simply failed to mention certain civilian casualties in the war? Or that some governments wanted us to thrash it out in Iran? Or that some people in the State Department have poor opinions of Sarkozy, or Berlusconi, or Ahmedinejad? Spying on the UN? I'm pretty sure we've done that before, like back when we were pitching the Iraq invasion. And I'm pretty sure we did it even before that.

Is there anything we are learning out of these leaks that is truly, genuinely shocking? I'm hard-pressed to find it.

I mean, even if we include the suggestion that Defense and State are stuck in the last century as far as their security presuppositions are concerned, well, that's not a particularly mindbending idea.
 
No, you missed the point which is that we cannot navigate social situations without discretion. Complete disclosure of every conversation and opinion is damaging to any social relationship. Even more so when it is a political relationship.

And I said I don't believe in someone else deciding what I should know about a social relationship that is not intimate or personal. Given a choice between controlled media whether of the variety in KSA or USA and the free press we enjoy in India, I would take the free press every time be it Tehelka or Newstrack or the internet. I think Americans are lucky that they have access to the internet, to sources of news like wikileaks and al Jazeera otherwise they would be even more unaware of what their govt is doing than they are now. If it were up to the GOI, we would not be able to access any books or movies that were considered "offensive" and leaks about what happens behind closed doors in political circles would become taboo if every editor was treated the way the Shiv Sena treats Nikhil Wagle. Fortunately, we live in a society where we consider the law to be a tool of the people rather than a weapon of the government.


Is there anything we are learning out of these leaks that is truly, genuinely shocking? I'm hard-pressed to find it.

Agreed. The volume of data is really surprising. But if you've ever downloaded stuff from a mainframe, you'd realise its quite the norm if you have no idea what you are looking for.

If I had the time [and inclination] I would sort everything by country and policy to see what kind of diplomatic hoops were being jumped. e.g. cables sent from Washington to KSA and Israel re:Iran, to Iran re:Israel, to Israel re:KSA, to KSA re: Israel. I bet it would make for some very interesting patterns
 
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I'm a believer in full disclosure and transparency.

I'm torn.

I'll be honest, I'm having trouble caring about Wikileaks latest release.

On one hand, I am fully aware that all governments--even the best of them--need to be able to keep secrets. To think otherwise is naïve. On the other hand, I also believe in--what you say--full disclosure and transparency. I don't really have a solid definition as to where one begins and the other ends, but on this particular issue, I'm really having trouble caring. Our allies and quasi-allies all know our warts, it will come as no surprise to fellow diplomats that their American counterparts trash-talk and share embarrassing tidbits of info.

~String
 
I'm torn.

I'll be honest, I'm having trouble caring about Wikileaks latest release.

On one hand, I am fully aware that all governments--even the best of them--need to be able to keep secrets. To think otherwise is naïve. On the other hand, I also believe in--what you say--full disclosure and transparency. I don't really have a solid definition as to where one begins and the other ends, but on this particular issue, I'm really having trouble caring. Our allies and quasi-allies all know our warts, it will come as no surprise to fellow diplomats that their American counterparts trash-talk and share embarrassing tidbits of info.

~String

I don't know how Americans view their government representatives, because I've heard some of them declare they don't live in a democracy. Well I live in a democracy and I consider the state representatives to be on par with every voting adult with the same rights and responsibilities. Especially social responsibilities. If it would not be condoned in an adult Indian then it should not be condoned in a political representative. I am of the opinion that the means do not always justify the ends and giving latitude for criminal behaviour and freedom from accountability to political representatives is a slippery slope that ultimately creates more problems than it solves

Just think about it. Would you trust a lawyer who kept confidential the contract he was hired to write out? What is your opinion of a doctor who only discloses that part of your medical record which does not make him liable for medical malpractice? Would you prefer to be judged in a courtroom where you were not privy to the information used against you? Public service is just that: public service. If they have to keep it secret, then they are doing it all wrong
 
One of the things about the WikiLeaks saga that puzzles me is that, as the spokespeople, journalists, and talking heads have all gone on about it, I'm still unsure why anyone is shocked by the contents of these leaks.

Is anyone? I agree that this seems to entirely amount to the publication of what have long been "open secrets."

It's been argued elsewhere (and I tend to agree) that the most interesting part of these recent publications is that it unequivocably demonstrates the wide disconnect between the public statements and stances of Arab states, and their private statements to the US. This is again an "open secret," but one that was useful to the parties as such - it enabled everyone to hear what they wanted to hear, and discount what they didn't (Americans get to write off public statements, while the Arab street could turn a blind eye to back-room dealings).

The question is what impact the publications will have, given the long-standing divergence in public and private stances from these states. If the Arab leaders get into a lot of hot water over this, then probably their private stances will come to resemble their public rhetoric more closely. On the other hand, if the Arab street does not present the leadership with problems, the public rhetoric will come to resemble the private stances (and the whole bogeyman of the Arab street may become a historical relic). What is difficult to imagine is a continuance of the status quo, and I find that prospect rather interesting.
 
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