The Prophet, The Politician

[Michael]

Would you say that being a "Prophet" is really about being a Politician? I mean, if you stop and think about the logistics of leading large groups of people. That's politics. You have to balance varying interest groups, maintain the smooth workings of the organization, promote people within the hierarchy, etc.... etc.... etc..... Oh, sure, the "Gods" tell you something once in awhile, and usually this "something" is about carrying out your Political Will (also referred to as the Will of God).



You know, I never really trusted Politicians.
Because it's their job to lie.
I know there are no Gods or Goddesses - so I know damn well that Prophets are lying when they say they hear something from a God.

Which makes good sense.
Because Prophets are in reality Politicians.


Maybe that's why I'm atheist?
:shrug:

 

[S.A.M.]

Have you read Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet?

A prophet is an idealist. Someone who looks at society and compels society to look at itself.

 

[Doreen]

Would you say that being a "Prophet" is really about being a Politician?

Maybe some of them.

I mean, if you stop and think about the logistics of leading large groups of people.

Or it is being a leader. In fact, that is what leading groups of people is, being a leader. Politicians are a subset. So you are taking one subset of leaders, saying that is what leaders are and then saying that other leaders are that subset. Kind of sloppy.

That's politics. You have to balance varying interest groups, maintain the smooth workings of the organization, promote people within the hierarchy, etc.... etc.... etc..... Oh, sure, the "Gods" tell you something once in awhile, and usually this "something" is about carrying out your Political Will (also referred to as the Will of God).

I dont know, that does not seem to fit Jesus. I have never seen a politician hang out openly with prostitutes and the poor or refuse to defend himself physically or verbally.
If he had some slimy power mad agenda, most politicians would laugh at his approach.

You know, I never really trusted Politicians.
Because it's their job to lie.
I know there are no Gods or Goddesses - so I know damn well that Prophets are lying when they say they hear something from a God.

So you know there is no God, somehow. And you know that prophets are lying - not, for example, making a mistake or projecting or correct, or partially correct.

You are making metaphysical claims, if in the negative, and claiming to be able to read minds.

Are you a prophet?

Maybe that's why I'm atheist?
:shrug:

Since the damning feature of prophets in your mind is that they are politicians, you must think that everyone, Democrat or Republican or whatever who thinks a politician is honest and decent is very confused. As confused as you think religious people are. And yet you rarely post in Politics to help them with their confusion.

 

[lightgigantic]

Would you say that being a "Prophet" is really about being a Politician? I mean, if you stop and think about the logistics of leading large groups of people. That's politics. You have to balance varying interest groups, maintain the smooth workings of the organization, promote people within the hierarchy, etc.... etc.... etc..... Oh, sure, the "Gods" tell you something once in awhile, and usually this "something" is about carrying out your Political Will (also referred to as the Will of God).



You know, I never really trusted Politicians.
Because it's their job to lie.
I know there are no Gods or Goddesses - so I know damn well that Prophets are lying when they say they hear something from a God.

Which makes good sense.
Because Prophets are in reality Politicians.


Maybe that's why I'm atheist?
:shrug:

Actually one of the reasons you are an atheist is that you find the notion of religion bearing any notable social influence unpalatable.

If you have a god and a community that is at its mercy, why on earth wouldn't you expect some sort of political representation?

 

[sine.nomine]

Would you say that being a "Prophet" is really about being a Politician? I mean, if you stop and think about the logistics of leading large groups of people. That's politics. You have to balance varying interest groups, maintain the smooth workings of the organization, promote people within the hierarchy, etc.... etc.... etc..... Oh, sure, the "Gods" tell you something once in awhile, and usually this "something" is about carrying out your Political Will (also referred to as the Will of God).

Most prophets in the Bible were persecuted for relaying the message of God. Many were imprisoned and/or put to death by their own political leaders. Being a prophet isn't about being popular at all. Isaiah was the main prophet in the Old Testament, and God even told him that nobody would listen until much later.

 

[Michael]

Have you read Kahlil Gibran's The Prophet?

A prophet is an idealist. Someone who looks at society and compels society to look at itself.

This is true. But, why the need to suggest they are talking with Gods? I mean, Socrates didn't do that. Picasso didn't do that either. Neither did James Cameron.

There must be more to a Prophet than ONLY reflection.

Maybe some of them.

Or it is being a leader. In fact, that is what leading groups of people is, being a leader. Politicians are a subset. So you are taking one subset of leaders, saying that is what leaders are and then saying that other leaders are that subset. Kind of sloppy.

I dont know, that does not seem to fit Jesus. I have never seen a politician hang out openly with prostitutes and the poor or refuse to defend himself physically or verbally.
If he had some slimy power mad agenda, most politicians would laugh at his approach.
So you know there is no God, somehow. And you know that prophets are lying - not, for example, making a mistake or projecting or correct, or partially correct.

You are making metaphysical claims, if in the negative, and claiming to be able to read minds.

Are you a prophet?

Since the damning feature of prophets in your mind is that they are politicians, you must think that everyone, Democrat or Republican or whatever who thinks a politician is honest and decent is very confused. As confused as you think religious people are. And yet you rarely post in Politics to help them with their confusion.

It's silly to assume there may be a Pink Puff the Magic Dragon floating around in the sky breathing blue fire that makes the rain fall - just because I can't prove it isn't the case.

I needn't be a prophet to speak logically about rain.


Yes, the idea was sloppy, and I agree no Prophets aren't necessarily Politicians. However some are some connections.

Kin Jung Il II - Is a God.
The Ayatollah - Knows the Will of God

Yes, people who say they hear God telling them this or that (in their head) are lying (or psychopathic). People who say they THINK God wants you to do this or that - may be lying or may be telling the truth. Wouldn't you agree?

Actually one of the reasons you are an atheist is that you find the notion of religion bearing any notable social influence unpalatable.

If you have a god and a community that is at its mercy, why on earth wouldn't you expect some sort of political representation?

Well, if you had a God, I suppose it could come down to Earth and carry out it's own Will through the Law.

Most prophets in the Bible were persecuted for relaying the message of God. Many were imprisoned and/or put to death by their own political leaders. Being a prophet isn't about being popular at all. Isaiah was the main prophet in the Old Testament, and God even told him that nobody would listen until much later.

That does make for a good story and I'm sure that this allegory is repeated in many cultures in various scenarios. Chavez comes to mind.

 

[Doreen]

It's silly to assume there may be a Pink Puff the Magic Dragon floating around in the sky breathing blue fire that makes the rain fall - just because I can't prove it isn't the case.

Other people's alleged sillyness has no bearing on the hubris of your claims. Notice what you did. You made a claim. When it is pointed out that you are acting like a prophet, you say that other people are silly for claims they make.

I needn't be a prophet to speak logically about rain.

But you weren't talking about rain. Try me. Make an assertion about rain and see if I say it was a metaphysical claim.

Kin Jung Il II - Is a God.
The Ayatollah - Knows the Will of God

But examples do not a pattern make.

Yes, people who say they hear God telling them this or that (in their head) are lying (or psychopathic). People who say they THINK God wants you to do this or that - may be lying or may be telling the truth. Wouldn't you agree?

1) you've changed your position a step 2) no, I wouldn't. I do not know what they are hearing, those in the first group. They may be correct. They may be partially correct: iow they are hearing God but not perfectly. They may be wrong. They may be mentally ill. They may be hearing a voice that is not God's. They make be wishing so hard they hear what they wish for and not God. And in these last few cases God could exist and be hearable, but in these cases they are not hearing him or her.

 

[Michael]

Well Doreen, it was just a thought, I didn't say it was a very well thought out one!! haha...

OK, I shouldn't have alleged a sense of "silliness", however, I can't but help feel there's something silly about certain beliefs. It's silly, to me, to think Tom Cruse is a Prophet. It's kind of silly to think people flew here in 1960s DC-10 shaped intergalactic space ships. I find a magical Prophet who flies to the heavens to look around - silly.

That people die and keep dying over these silly thoughts I find absurd - and maybe that comes out in some of my posts as sounding like an arrogant prick, for this I apologize.



I haven't seen a new angle taken on the Religious Forum in some time. It's good to toss something out there and see where it goes. Even if it goes no where. Prophets may not always be politicians - but it sure does help politicians to be Prophets. From Julius Caesar to the last Chinese Emperor. Claims of divinity does wonders for one's political career. No?

 

[Doreen]

Well Doreen, it was just a thought, I didn't say it was a very well thought out one!! haha...

Oh, I am being too cranky. Apologies.

OK, I shouldn't have alleged a sense of "silliness", however, I can't but help feel there's something silly about certain beliefs. It's silly, to me, to think Tom Cruse is a Prophet.

Does someone believe this?

It's kind of silly to think people flew here in 1960s DC-10 shaped intergalactic space ships. I find a magical Prophet who flies to the heavens to look around - silly.

I'm not sure how we got here.

That people die and keep dying over these silly thoughts I find absurd - and maybe that comes out in some of my posts as sounding like an arrogant prick, for this I apologize.

No, my tone was inappropriate for you. I conflate atheists, sometimes. You are really rather fun and playful, even if you overreach sometimes.

I haven't seen a new angle taken on the Religious Forum in some time. It's good to toss something out there and see where it goes.

Yes, yes, salt in my guilt.

Even if it goes no where. Prophets may not always be politicians - but it sure does help politicians to be Prophets. From Julius Caesar to the last Chinese Emperor. Claims of divinity does wonders for one's political career. No?

Were these guys prophets? I don't think so. They did claim or others claimed for them divine essence of some kind. This is related, but I don't think they were considered prophets. Also the conception of God or gods in these cases is rather different from Abrahamic versions. The Abrahamic God is infallible. Roman gods, on the other hand, were superpowerful, but very human in their behavior. More like the X men - and some not very nice ones thrown in - than Jesus' dad or Allah. So claims of divine origin in these cases is quite different. It does not mean they cannot be wrong or make mistakes, it just means they are better than other people are to some degree part of the eternal.

To me a prophet renews a religion. They say new stuff or freshly interpret texts or beliefs in the religion. To some degree they remake the religion. I don't think Caesar or the Chinese Emporers did this, though I might be wrong. I think they mostly dealt with secular issues, but did take on the aura of the deities.

Don't take this as a defense, I just think this last point was kinda apples and oranges.

 

[scifes]

this thread launches eliminating the possibility that god(s) exists.
a negative can't be proven.
hence,
this thread is nonsense.

if you want to say that you think prophets are lairs because they claim god exist, just say so...
oh wait,

I know there are no Gods or Goddesses - so I know damn well that Prophets are lying when they say they hear something from a God.

you already did..

if there was ever an atheist blinded by belief, it's you...you're a negative image of a theistic nut.