The Practical value of religion : Brazil as an example

[Quantum Quack]

In discussions between various opinions on the value of religion especially Christianity, the practical value of religion is often over looked in favour of a more intellectual or scientific approach as to veracity, validity and integrity etc.
What seems to be often over looked in these discussions is the practical value of religion with regards to the role religion plays in the every day lives of followers and devotees.
This is where I feel Brazil can be used as an example to promote the contention that regardless of whether one believes in Christianities point of view or not it is undeniable that with out the guidance of religion Brazil for example would be in a state of significant if not total societal dysfunction, chaos and confusion.

It is not the purpose of this thread to enter into arguement [ although this is the likely outcome] about the esoteric reality of religion but more to discuss if possible the very real practical value that religion has to countries that have huge problems with poverty and the tremendous despair that this type of poverty can generate.

I am in the process of visiting Brazil and indeeed am writing this thread from a borrowed computer in a city called Campinna Grande. From my Australian perspective I see incredible poverty, ranging from the infamous Favella [ neighbourhoods constricted of tarps, rubbish and slats of wood or any other material discarded by the less poor to the simple poor where rooms [up to 3]are smaller than what we in the west would consider to be a small bathroom with out cielings or flooring. [ with a large family living within]
It seems that a significant proportion of the population of this sizable city live within this range of poverty and of course the church has a very strong presence.

What occurred to me was that even with the moral guidance of the church the people here live behind razor wire and electric fences, padlocked high front gates and barbed wire and if the church was not present to provide moral guidance and a set of ethical principals for the mainly illiterate to semi-illiterate population, this city and for that matter most of this country Brazil would fall into to anachy and total chaos.

So I ask the question to myself and share the same with you :

What is the practical value of religion? What alternative would you offer to a population where chronic poverty is inescapable for most. How would you inspire ethical and principaled behaviour with out using religion as a vehicle?

Please in your consideration, include the tragedy of a significant proportion of a population that has not the benefit of a high education or language skills nor in the main any capacity to use such devices as computers, ipods or mobile phones.


Care to discuss?

 

[spidergoat]

They will need science and especially a science education in order to improve their country. Praying for wealth won't work. Perhaps religion is keeping them poor by preventing scientific curiosity.

It sounds like things could not get much worse, why attribute any benefits to religion at all?

 

[Light Travelling]

They will need science and especially a science education in order to improve their country. Praying for wealth won't work. Perhaps religion is keeping them poor by preventing scientific curiosity.

It sounds like things could not get much worse, why attribute any benefits to religion at all?

So would you say an active campaign of going in to these areas and Convincing everyone that;
There is no god
no afterlife
no afterdeath reward or punishment for deeds committed.
That it is all about survival of the species
Survival of the fittest
Convincing them that there is no truth to any supanatural theory whatsoever.

Would that make the situation better or worse??



And I guess where this thread will end up, is about morals. i.e. how morals are logically justified without any religion.

Perhaps religion is keeping them poor by preventing scientific curiosity. ?

What has made them poor is 'the west' vs third world politics and economic policy. It is not lack of curosity but lack of resource that limits them.

 

[lightgigantic]

They will need science and especially a science education in order to improve their country. Praying for wealth won't work. Perhaps religion is keeping them poor by preventing scientific curiosity.

It sounds like things could not get much worse, why attribute any benefits to religion at all?

Actually even materially advanced countries have problems - and its not like science is going to solve them

Its the nature that as soon as one becomes a bit materially powerful or opulent that one becomes puffed up with a false sense of confidence, but the experience of dying, getting old or getting sick is the same for everyone - we may discriminate but death and misfortune (as well as happiness) visits everyone equally outside of classes of material prosperity - its the nature of material existence to never be perfect but one becomes more susceptable to illusion if one has apparently high birth, opulence etc and cannot see this so clearly - as a practical example the WHO does regular surveys to determine who are the "happiest" people, and the top countries always end iup being places in South america, mexico or bangladesh or something

 

[Light Travelling]

I would say there undoubtably are inherent morals whithin the human - once an evolution of consciousness has taken place where an animal can recognise others as being basically the same as the self (which humans have) then empathy ensues, which forms the basis of morality.

Although it seems to me that this empathistic morality is something that seems to be fairly easy to psychologically swith off. Escpecially in self preservation situations like the slums of Brazil.

It is religion that attempts (although sometimes badly) to keep this innate empathatic morality at the forefront of our consciousness.

 

[lightgigantic]

I would say there undoubtably are inherent morals whithin the human - once an evolution of consciousness has taken place where an animal can recognise others as being basically the same as the self (which humans have) then empathy ensues, which forms the basis of morality.

Although it seems to me that this empathistic morality is something that seems to be fairly easy to psychologically swith off. Escpecially in self preservation situations like the slums of Brazil.

It is religion that attempts (although sometimes badly) to keep this innate empathatic morality at the forefront of our consciousness.

You would be surprised how much religion has contributed to morality - in many places where religion is relatively new on the block communities are not so far from jungle culture which doesn't necessarily dicate such elementary things that you are alluding to - for instance many would argue that if they can kill you that they are the good guy and that you are the bad guy - the evidence is that if you are dead they can take your stuff and you won't be around to put up much of a protest

 

[Light Travelling]

I was thinking about reasons for morality that aren't linked to religion, but thinking further, this only covers some very basic morals and would not encompass any type of say sexual morality, and of course it is lack of empathy (of recognising others as same as self) that allows such things as racism to take place.

The morals that even the most atheistic of us in the west now take pretty much for granted are founded on thousands of years of religious influnce. Religiously based morals which we have all been indoctrinated with since birth. Our morals are inextricably linked with religion and I would say it is almost impossible to disentangle what moral values come from religion, what come from rational and what are innate?

 

[lightgigantic]

lol - well given that all mental proceedures like logic are attributed as a sub catergory of religion it is not surprising - there is a social paradigm given in the vedas of religious principles, economic development, sense gratification and liberation (dharma artha kama moksa)

the idea is that one establishment gives th eopportunity to lead to the next - liike for instance if there are religious principles then such things that require relative civil atmospheres (like agriculture and commerce for eg) can develop - which in turn can lead to increased prosperity which in turn can lead to pondering on the higher values or significances of life (even the pursuit of science requires a social civil atmosphere for research, as well as literally tons of money) - and all this pursuit of knowledge ultimately culminates in the notion that we have no ultimate connection with material existence -

It seems that the example of the pinnacle of sense gratification in recent times was the 1950's in america (which btw has a strong foundation in religious principles, despite whatever may be going on at present) but then came the hippy movement which was an unsuccessful attempt at liberation, which resulted in a slip back to sense gratification - and perhaps with the latest going on in the middle east the americans are begin to struggle on the newly revisted platform of economic development (IMHO anyway ....)

 

[Light Travelling]

well given that all mental proceedures like logic are attributed as a sub catergory of religion

Please explain further?

 

[Fire]

You would be surprised how much religion has contributed to morality

And to it's decline of course. The morals of both developed and impoverished religious countries are questionable. If religion is very popular in impoverished countries then it appears to do a poor job on reducing crime. And of course in America, a developed religious country, I certainly don't share my morals with your average christian. They don't seem to mind the thousands that die in collateral damage in a war they invented for no good reason (although maybe they wouldn't agree with it if they happened to be christians?), yet they don't wish a clump of cells to be destroyed as 'collateral damage' in the war against very real diseases which millions of adults and children suffer from.

Actually even materially advanced countries have problems - and its not like science is going to solve them

I know, but you have to admit, a secular country should be one that all but the most religious fundamentalist would desire.

 

[Enterprise-D]

lol - well given that all mental proceedures like logic are attributed as a sub catergory of religion it is not surprising - there is a social paradigm given in the vedas of religious principles, economic development, sense gratification and liberation (dharma artha kama moksa)

Nonsensical. Please show an accepted definition as to where or how logic is even related to religion, far less being a "sub category".

the idea is that one establishment gives th eopportunity to lead to the next - liike for instance if there are religious principles then such things that require relative civil atmospheres (like agriculture and commerce for eg) can develop - which in turn can lead to increased prosperity which in turn can lead to pondering on the higher values or significances of life (even the pursuit of science requires a social civil atmosphere for research, as well as literally tons of money) - and all this pursuit of knowledge ultimately culminates in the notion that we have no ultimate connection with material existence -

This rambling paragraph is a maze of words that basically says: scientific pursuits and religious ponderings are luxuries that develop after a certain level of socio-economic standard is arrived at.

Correct?

If so I would agree with you somewhat, however this does not imply that they both happen at the same level of evolution. Religious theories develop on a much earlier ladder-rung of human development.

Side note: IMO We are on the cusp of rejecting religion on a grand scale (within a decade or two) and moving ahead with advanced science.



To address the thread topic. Given my response to Lightee, I (grudgingly) admit that religion in some circumstances may be practical. To expound: I mentioned that religious theories develop earlier. I also put forward that religion as a policing and political tool are powerful in a lesser developed society. Brazil, while being a large contributor to various socio-economic sectors of the planet, still has a very large poplace that are very simplistic and academically under exposed. In such a circumstance, religious authority may be necessary as a crowd control clamp and perhaps even granting the general masses a (false) sense of self worth.

Let me liken this to math class. While in early days, children are taught that there is nothing less than zero. While growing up, we dispense with that idea and learn of negative numbers. Growing even further, we even entertain the idea of complex numbers.

What I am saying here is that Brazil as a community mind set, is at the point where they have not learned that there is anything less than zero (liken this to "anything other than god"). Use of religious authority might be practical in this situation, to keep more base behaviour under control until the masses become further educated.

 

[spidergoat]

So would you say an active campaign of going in to these areas and Convincing everyone that;
There is no god
no afterlife
no afterdeath reward or punishment for deeds committed.
That it is all about survival of the species
Survival of the fittest
Convincing them that there is no truth to any supanatural theory whatsoever.

Would that make the situation better or worse??

That does not constitute scientific literacy. Let's start with teaching science (among other things), and let people make their own conclusions.

Survival of the fittest is not a personal ideology. Evolution does not require an individual to "buy into it" like a religion, for it to work. It works wether we believe in it or not.

 

[lightgigantic]

Please explain further?

There is no great pursuit of logic or science unless there is an established social civility by established religious principles - it falls back to the dharma artha kama moksa paradigm - having the spare time to ponder on the deeper significances of life is easier if you don't have to wonder where your next meal is going to come from or whether some ravaging horde of barbarians will rape and pillage you

 

[Enterprise-D]

I am scathed somewhat to find that I am in a *grumble* position of some measure of agreement with Lightee

Religion wielded as a crowd control 'political' tool is a force to be reckoned with in a largely superstitious society that has not progressed to widespread scientific understanding or acceptance. In the Brazil example, while they aren't "ravaging hordes", Brazil folks seem to be largely religious and will respond more quickly to a church authority. (Any Brazil folks on the board? Perhaps who may share some insight into Brazil on the whole, Campina Grande specifically?).

 

[spidergoat]

I wonder how well the Catholic Church's stand on contraception is serving them.

 

[Enterprise-D]

LOL stop it! You bad!

Seriously though, all overly religious communities seem to be very selective on their respective authority's rules. Boredom is the best catalyst for a high sex drive...so...contraception all the way!

 

[Quantum Quack]

Great response guys. Unfortunately I haven´t got easy access to the internet so I will have to wait a while before responding myself. Needing to write a post out by hand first is a real pain....oh well.....I think however all points are valid however one must consider the scale of the issue especially here regrading Brazil. We are not talking about just a few thousand persons here we are talking about a 10s of millions of persons....shall post soon...

 

[Quantum Quack]

I must admit prior to actually coming to Brazil I had a similar but not quite as extreme view as Spider Goat is displaying. Now that I am here in the thick of it I find my earlier view to be in error and in error considerably. I guess with out actually experiencing the chaos and desparation of the extremely poor one can not really even begin to cast judgement or opinion that can come close to describing the reality of such a state.

It is over whelming, the financial figures that go through you head when you attempt to rationalise this issue. For example: Just to provide a cheap tooth brush and a smal portion of tooth paste to all the poor in Brazil would bankrupt most countries.
Just providing essential services is near impossible, not to mention schooling which in Brazils schools includes science and other non-religious subjects.

The people here are constantly complaining about a corrupt government and how they do very little for solving the issue of resoursing a path out of destitution yet even from my un-educated eye I can see that the task of supporting such a low income producing society is simply way to hard if not impossible if one wants growth and future improvement. The immediate need is just simply too big.
So it seems to me that the goverenment is struggling just to keep people alive with little resources being available to generate a more affluent future.

Now as I once held Spider Goats view I simply have to step down from such an unrealisting perception of the problem and take another look.

As it seems to be always the case when a government is unable to provide for various reasons, the church seems to step in and with the help of millions of volunteers and charitable donations facilitate provisons for those who can not provide for themselves. In most cases religious worship is not even required to gain support.
However if one is watching their children starve to death and along comes the church that puts food on their table and a tooth brush in their hands is it no wonder that those persons would worship the root of such generousity?

The church [ religion ] giving the despairing poor a purpose to their suffering and a sense of equality and dignity as they consider that every one is equal in the eyes of God. And as they watch their children fall ill and die from preventable illnesses they find some consolation that the life just lost and the lives that continue do so for some purpose or reason even if they are not privy to those reasons.

Whilst suffering they consider that one only needs to live morally and with ethics to make their suffering worth while. Sure some will say that this is mere self delusion and that they suffer for naught but I challenge those that hold such a view to go to such a community and try to tell them so to their faces. Tell them that their sufference is an exercise in futility, and that their hopes and aspirations in this world and what they believe to be the next are a fraud and delusion.

So I ask is there an alternative to the very real and practical value of what the church and it´s religion supply a needy community?

Can just simply supplying a food and goods drop of emergency rations and commodities be any where sufficient in providing motivation and a reason to go on?
It seems that people need much more than just food and stuff, they need also inspiration and motivation too.

What way is there to maintain societal cohesion and stop those poor from just simply taking what they need from persons they see as corrupt and selfish?
How does one teach a child simple morality with out even a fictional authority figure to support such? [Given that most poor families are single mothers and no father to provide that moral or character development that we in the West take for granted]

I see the very real value of Religion as being tremendous at this level of societal evolution, [ as mentioned earlier by another poster]
It is all very well to declare a system as foul but to do so with out providing a suitable alternative is considerably more foul.

please excuse the rambling nature of this post.

 

[spidergoat]

Don't you think the church is exploiting the gap in the government's social responsibility?
Isn't the church promoting co-dependency?
You say the government is corrupt and isn't that the central issue here?
Does the country have to be so needy?
Doesn't that point out the fact that the country doesn't have the resources to support so many people?
Abandon the church, use condoms, end the corruption that prevents free education (Cuba and most European nations can do it)... In this way, people can attain social mobility, become middle class, and get some real power. Why shouldn't they steal from the corrupt?
They should overthrow them, but the Church prevents this, instead offering them the carrot of the afterlife. Certainly abandoning religion without first fixing the basic issues of making a living is impractical, on that I agree.

Morality doesn't need an "authority" to be a valuable lesson in how people should act. I think this is a myth, and a legacy of patriarchal religion.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Brazil is not a giant slum. We are very hard working people. A lot of us work very hard throughout our lives and live just as well as the lower middle class in north america. The main difference between those not-so-poor people and north americans is that they are not addicted to convinience. We don't have dishwashers, for example. Or extremely unhealthy fatty snacks.

The problem in Brazil is not even education, anymore. The problem is that we are, and for a long time have been, constantly abused by the US, the IMF and the World Bank. To make a long story short, when our economy was booming about 50 60 years ago, the US didn't like the competition. So they secretly manipulated some people from the military to install a dictatorship here. They slowed down the economic growth and increase debt considerably. Now, all the money that we make goes to pay debt that never ends. Basically, just the interest. So now, all the money that we could use to invest in our people is going to the US.

Nice, eh?