The Paul File

... 526 has no prohibition against use of Federal Funds for this pipeline ...
That is true If and only if the shale oil, imported under federal contracts is NOT used to make mobile fuel; however, the main use of keystone pipeline extension is to deliver the crude to the gulf coast refineries that were designed for converting heavy crude into mobile fuels. 567 prohits this keystone pipeline to those refineries from being built with federal funds.

I have never said 567 make it illegal for keystone extenison to be built as you claim or infer I did. In fact I have said I think it would be legal for privated funds to build it for making gasoline or even federal funds building it, I now add, IF used only as a petro-chemical feed stock for a plastics plant. - See the footnote you cut out of context in your false cherry picking post trying to make it seem that I said what you claim I did.

Here is that footnote you omitted again but now with section, made bold, clearly showing I did not say 567 made keystone construction illegal as you claim I did:
"
* and then what is prohibited is use of federal funds, but I cannot put all the law´s restrictions in every sentence I write, after having already mentioned them. I have said that private importation of shale oil with no use of federal funds is probably not prohibited by this particular federal law, but likely is by various state laws, due to the NIMBY effect. "
 
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I have never said 567 make it illegal for keystone extenison to be built as you claim or infer I did.

Quit lying Billy.

Billy T in post 1303 said:
Congress will need to change that environmental law before Obama or any POTUS can authorized Keystone. A link to the law has been posted several times, but basically it makes it illegal to import petroleum from any source that over all (from ground to car´s tank) increases the CO2 release

EISA was passed BEFORE the first two phases of Keystone were built, so clearly there was nothing in the law which made it illegal to import Canadian Shale or Oil sand based crude.
 
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Quit lying Billy.
no lie there. It is illegal for federal agency to contract for THIS keystone extension - the one going to the gulf refineries to make fuel for mobile use. A "keystone 4" delivering petro-chemical feed stock to a plastic plant would not be a violation of 576 even if built under frederal agency contracts.
 
Billy the first two phases went to refineries for fuel for mobile use, there is no difference with this next phase.
 
the law resticting import by federal agancies was only passed in 2007. I think the two earlier parts of Keystone pipline were contructed well prior to the passage of 567.

No Billy, they weren't.

The US Authorization didn't even come until 2008

the National Energy Board of Canada approved the construction of the Canadian section of the pipeline, including converting a portion of TransCanada's Canadian Mainline gas pipeline to crude oil pipeline, on September 21, 2007.

On December 19, 2007 Bush signed EISA into law

On March 17, 2008, the U.S. Department of State issued a Presidential Permit authorizing the construction, maintenance and operation of facilities at the United States and Canada border.

Phase 1 wasn't completed until June of 2010
Phase 2 wasn't completed until Feb of 2011


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Independence_and_Security_Act_of_2007
 
no lie there. It is illegal for federal agency to contract for THIS keystone extension - the one going to the gulf refineries to make fuel for mobile use. A "keystone 4" delivering petro-chemical feed stock to a plastic plant would not be a violation of 576 even if built under frederal agency contracts.

No Billy, that's not how our oil pipeline and crude storage system works.

The current pipeline goes to multiple refineries and to the oil hub and tank farm in Cushing, Oklahoma

This is where nearly 20% of the US Crude is stored waiting for delivery to refineries in huge tanks holding a total of about 50 Million Barrels of oil.

Oil leaving Cushing via pipelines/tankers will be a mix of crude oil including plenty of West Texas Intermediate oil.

By the same token, most Gasoline leaving our refineries will almost always contain some Canadian oil stock, so there is almost no way to not buy gasoline that does not contain Petroleum that started from Canadian oil sands/shale.
 
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If your facts in post 1345 & 1344 are correct then I too would conclude that Dr Kent Moors is wrong in HIS statement below, which I only quoted in my original post requested by MadAnthonyWane found at: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2893045&postcount=220

“… U.S. statute, namely, §526 of the Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA) of 2007. This prohibits federal agencies from procuring (which includes importing) synthetic fuel unless its life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions are less than those for conventional petroleum sources. … Congress must change this legislation or the Alberta oil flow into the Lower 48 is not possible by statute. …”

From: http://oilandenergyinvestor.com/2012/01/ultimate-fate-of-keystone-pipeline

Kent Moors is one of the world´s energy experts – a consultant to most of the major oil companies and to several governments, including the US, but most recently to Poland in its “fracking” for natural gas programs.

I had already concluded that there were conditions under which shale oil could be legally imported and listed several so never quoted Moors´ “into the Lower 48 is not possible by statute” part.
 
Well clearly he is wrong because our largest supplier of Crude oil is Canada and as part of that, the existing first two phases of the Keystone pipeline brings about 1/4 of that 2 million barrels per day into our country where it enters our pipeline/storage system and is blended into virtually all our fuels.

ftp://ftp.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/p...ons/company_level_imports/current/import.html

Others on his own site also noted he was quite wrong about this:

Gary Wieland: After reading your article on the Keystone Pipeline "It Comes Down to This" I have lost some respect for your knowledge of the Oil Industry. I have been in the business for nearly 40 years and much of what your are saying is incorrect about the tar sands oil and its transportation in the Keystone Pipeline. First the oil is heavy but it is NOT being processed into SynFuel before shipment. That requires a refinery and that IS why it is being shipped to the south. If this were true your contention would put and end to the enviromentalists concerns about dirty oil, refining emissions, etc.

Second the Act forbidding Federal Angencies from buying Synfuel would have nothing to do with this petroleum liquid even if your statement on Synfuel were true because it is not the Federal Agencies buying fuel. Private companies are buying the crude, transporting it to refiners in the south, and then selling these products on the open market.
 
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That is true If and only if the shale oil, imported under federal contracts is NOT used to make mobile fuel; however, the main use of keystone pipeline extension is to deliver the crude to the gulf coast refineries that were designed for converting heavy crude into mobile fuels. 567 prohits this keystone pipeline to those refineries from being built with federal funds.

I have never said 567 make it illegal for keystone extenison to be built as you claim or infer I did. In fact I have said I think it would be legal for privated funds to build it for making gasoline or even federal funds building it, I now add, IF used only as a petro-chemical feed stock for a plastics plant.

What that section actually bans is for federal agencies to sign procurement contracts for fuels from such sources for mobility uses.

But I don't see where you've established that the Keystone XL project would have required procurement contracts by federal agencies (for any reason, but specifically for mobility). AFAIK, the whole thing is proposed to be built by various Canadian entities and ConocoPhillips, and the Federal government only figures in in terms of environmental impact approvals and the like. So that Section 526 stuff wouldn't apply (although it will prevent, say, the DoD from buying the transport fuels that come out of the refineries).

Unless I'm missing something? Has anyone here, or in any of the linked sources, actually provided support for the claim that federal agencies would have to engage in procurement contracts for transport fuel in order for the Keystone XL pipeline to be built and operated? Because that claim is crucial to the point, and seems oddly untouched. It isn't even made explicitly, just implied.
 
So that Section 526 stuff wouldn't apply (although it will prevent, say, the DoD from buying the transport fuels that come out of the refineries).

Only if the Sierra club wins it's law suit against the DOD.

But I think reality will prevent that absurdity from happening.

Part of the refining process is to combine crudes to get certain specific weights and to also blend the outputs of multiple different refining operations so there is no way to tell from the delivered output fuel what percent started out as Canadian Crude, and in many regions of the country you couldn't buy fuel that didn't include Canadian Crude as one of it's feed stocks.

They are after all, our largest supplier of oil at over 2 million barrels of oil per day.
 
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Nice summary.

What I don't understand is why an sane "Liberal Progressive" would want to vote for Obama.... Oh, yeah, they're not real liberal progressive. More like Liberal Conservative.
 
Nice summary.

What I don't understand is why an sane "Liberal Progressive" would want to vote for Obama.... Oh, yeah, they're not real liberal progressive. More like Liberal Conservative.

Why is your man not out there beating Romney? How do you see him winning the Republican nomination? What happens if Paul doesn't win the nomination? What then? What does that do to the movement?
 

Paul won't get the nomination, but even if he did and even if by some major fluke he was elected, that doesn't make him KING.

He would never get that list of things through Congress.

Other things, like "war is over", is not something the President can even decide unilaterally.

The war with Al Qaeda is over when they quit, not when we do.
 
Why is your man not out there beating Romney? How do you see him winning the Republican nomination? What happens if Paul doesn't win the nomination? What then? What does that do to the movement?
I agree that "Liberty and Individualism" as an ideal isn't really appealing to people with as much wealth as Americans used to have. Kind of reminds me of the cage-rabbits in Watership Down. Liberty requires individual responsibility which requires a lot of work. Free society required work. People don't like to work. Not only that, but IMO they're becoming a bit more ignorant each generation. This is nothing new, it's common History. Nations rise, Nations fall.

IMO we are living in age of the Technocratic. Instead of unelected Aristocrats we now have unelected Technocrats. I wonder which is better? My guess is Aristocrats as they actually felt a sense of duty and were trained from childhood to discharge that duty. A Technocrat will happily sell out a generations of Americans to the Chinese if they think it'll help them make the right connections in the financial industry. Nevertheless, like all unelected rulers, both suffer from the same misguided notions.


What will happen to Libertarianism? Hard to say. No one really understands how social institutions arise from within society. I assume it'll slowly continue to grow. It seems, much like atheism, once people know there's no Uncle Sam looking out for them, they just don't go back to thinking there is :shrug:

Some do, most don't.

If you're asking who I'll vote for. As I said, I'm voting for Ron Paul. Unlike you and other pre-programmed politico-bot liberal conservatives *beep beep* I must vote along party lines *beep beep* I vote for the candidate I think will do the best for the country's future.

Paul won't get the nomination, but even if he did and even if by some major fluke he was elected, that doesn't make him KING.

He would never get that list of things through Congress.

Other things, like "war is over", is not something the President can even decide unilaterally.

The war with Al Qaeda is over when they quit, not when we do.
It doesn't make him King, but, he can eliminate five federal departments: Energy, Commerce, Interior, Education, and Housing and Urban Development.

He can cut the fat from the NIH. While you guys may not know much about the NIH. In my field it's traditionally thought of as a place where scientific failures go to work. See, a successful/real scientist would work at a private or state university. You have no idea how massive the waste is at the NIH. They used to throw away Hamilton syringes ($350 a pop) after one use. All that needed to be done was wash the syringe. But, why do that when you can just buy a box of new ones and throw them out when you're done. Mine are 10 years old and still work like brand new out of the box.

Ron would like to get rid of the IRS, get rid of income tax, end the Federal Reserve system of banking. These are things free moral people do support.

They are things Farmers and (not unsurprisingly) their Cattle do not support. I can only assume it's because they either don't understand that they're acting immorally or don't care.
:shrug:
 
It doesn't make him King, but, he can eliminate five federal departments: Energy, Commerce, Interior, Education, and Housing and Urban Development.

No he can't.

He could eliminate the heads of those from his Cabinet if he wanted, but the fundamental basis of those Agencies and the annual funding that keeps them going is in the hands of Congress, not the President.

The DOE for instance started out as the Atomic Energy Act of 1946, modified by the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, Reorganized under the Energy Reorganization act of 1974 (which created the Nuclear Regulatory Commission)

The Dept of Interior was created by Congress way back in 1849.

etc

He can cut the fat from the NIH. While you guys may not know much about the NIH. In my field it's traditionally thought of as a place where scientific failures go to work. See, a successful/real scientist would work at a private or state university. You have no idea how massive the waste is at the NIH. They used to throw away Hamilton syringes ($350 a pop) after one use. All that needed to be done was wash the syringe. But, why do that when you can just buy a box of new ones and throw them out when you're done. Mine are 10 years old and still work like brand new out of the box.

I find this highly unlikely.
No dept is going to get away with ordering huge quantities of non-disposable syringes costing $350 each without a valid reason.

Ron would like to get rid of the IRS, get rid of income tax, end the Federal Reserve system of banking. These are things free moral people do support.

No, I'm both free and moral and I don't support either.
In fact you have shown no plausible way you can have a Federal Govt and no Income tax and an agency to collect it.
 
No he can't.

He could eliminate the heads of those from his Cabinet if he wanted, but the fundamental basis of those Agencies and the annual funding that keeps them going is in the hands of Congress, not the President.
I'd like to know the finer details. Of course there'd be a massive mandate if Paul won, most weaselly Senators blow in the direction of the wind.

Regardless, that's his plan.

Spending Cuts

eliminate 5 cabinet-level agencies (Education, Interior, Commerce, Energy, and Housing and Urban Development)
privatize the FAA and the TSA
cut the federal workforce by 10%
cut funding (down from 2006 levels) for the

  • Food and Drug Administration by 40%
  • Centers for Disease Control by 20%
  • Department of Homeland Security by 20%
  • National Institutes of Health by 20%
  • Environmental Protection Agency by 30%
  • Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration by 20%

cut the Department of Defense budget by total 15%; eliminate all foreign war funding
freeze funding for most other federal agencies at 2006 levels
eliminate all foreign aid
eliminate international drug programs
substantially reduce foreign travel
eliminate international organizations and commissions
administer Medicaid and other joint federal-state social welfare programs (SCHIP, food stamps, etc) through block-grant funding mechanisms to the states
I find this highly unlikely.
No dept is going to get away with ordering huge quantities of non-disposable syringes costing $350 each without a valid reason.
They had a reason. Their syringes were used to inject a miniscule amount of radioactive I125 labeled protein. Which is easily washed off with .... OMG..... "H2O" and safely diluted into the sink :shrug:

People piss higher concentrations in their urine when they're treated with I125 for thyroid problems.

No, I'm both free and moral and I don't support either.
In fact you have shown no plausible way you can have a Federal Govt and no Income tax and an agency to collect it.
I disagree.

IMO you can't morally use violence to take a persons income who has done nothing to you. The use of force is immoral unless in self defense. This is why I said earlier, it's only the government that can initiate force legally.

Anyway, just think about it logically. Suppose you caught some fish. Suppose a group of people didn't catch as many. Maybe they'd like your fish. Do you think they have the moral right to beat you up and take your fish? That doesn't make sense.

That seems moral to you? :bugeye:

At the end of the day governments are just groups of people. Groups of people don't get a pass on morality just because they're a group. It's still not moral to rape a woman, just because you can gather up a group of guys all saying it is. It's still not moral :shrug: You can dress a human in a blue suite, give him a title, and pretty sticker, and he's still acting immoral if he initiated violence against you and steals your stuff.

AND, sadly, on top of income tax, we also have the Federal Reserve immorally inflating the currency - which is, when your trapped using the USD, another means to steal from you.

I suppose it really depends on what sort of society you can see yourself living in. If you think the one you're living in now is a good one, vote for Obama or Mitt, if not, then vote for Paul or someone who might actually try and change things. IMO, it's that simple.


Oh, and you're not "free" just try choosing not to pay your income tax or property tax or State tax or any number or taxes - you'll find out it's not the same as choosing not to buy an iPhone. Very different scenarios. At the end of the day, all of this is really just interactions with other humans.

Why would anyone think it bright to give some of those humans the legal right to initiate violence for your peacefully choosing not to give them your wealth? What can you do with your wealth? You could hoard it, but then you don't get to enjoy it. Also, if we had competing currencies, your hoarding probably won't matter. You can invest it. That seems reasonable and good for society so long as it's for peaceful purposes. You can loan it out. That's also reasonable. You could spend it. Well, that's supporting the economy.

Why on earth would you want to give it to some dip-shit in the government who couldn't make in the "real" world and let them decide what to do with your wealth? That just doesn't make much sense. Oh, sure, if you want to do so, YOU can. But, I don't think you can decide that for other people. And I'm positive you can't morally take from other people.
 
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I think Ron Paul will have to increase spending on drug treatment programs if he intends to legalize drugs.
 
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