The occult background of worldly knowledge

[lightgigantic]

Many reports are on record of occult experiences, gotten by extrasensory perception, mystical visions, precognitive dreams and so on. Apparently even animals are tuned to occult experiences, as indicated by their panicked flight from an area hours before an earthquake strikes. Millions of people find all this to be very fascinating today. They look to the occult as a new frontier of knowledge. For millions of other people, occultism is fantasy. Real knowledge is the "hard data" of the senses, mind and intellect.

But the distinction people make between worldly and occult knowledge is misleading in a number of ways. Even worldly knowledge has occult origins. For example, our speech is full of phrases like, "A wonderful idea came into my head," "An inspiration struck me," "It occurred to me," "Suddenly it was clear to me." Since childhood we've grown accustomed to the popping of ideas, inspirations and intuitive hunches into our everyday field of experience. Thus we take it for granted. But the plain fact is that they pop up out of an unknown dimension. And, as a further irony, with these ideas that spring from an occult source, we try to understand and explain the "everyday" world around us!

 

[James R]

Many reports are on record of occult experiences, gotten by extrasensory perception, mystical visions, precognitive dreams and so on.

Anecdotes, many of which collapse under the most basic scientific scrutiny.

Apparently even animals are tuned to occult experiences, as indicated by their panicked flight from an area hours before an earthquake strikes.

There is no evidence that animals display any kind of ESP with respect to earthquakes. Perhaps in some cases their ordinary senses can pick up things that humans are not aware of, but certainly there is no good evidence of any mystical powers.

But the distinction people make between worldly and occult knowledge is misleading in a number of ways. Even worldly knowledge has occult origins. For example, our speech is full of phrases like, "A wonderful idea came into my head," "An inspiration struck me," "It occurred to me," "Suddenly it was clear to me." Since childhood we've grown accustomed to the popping of ideas, inspirations and intuitive hunches into our everyday field of experience. Thus we take it for granted. But the plain fact is that they pop up out of an unknown dimension.

There is no evidence for that.

Much more likely is that our brains are constantly making new connections between fragments of knowledge and sense perceptions that we possess.

Nothing has ever been shown to come from an "unknown dimension".

 

[lightgigantic]

JamesR

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Many reports are on record of occult experiences, gotten by extrasensory perception, mystical visions, precognitive dreams and so on.
”
Anecdotes, many of which collapse under the most basic scientific scrutiny.

and also there is many that don't

“
Apparently even animals are tuned to occult experiences, as indicated by their panicked flight from an area hours before an earthquake strikes.
”
There is no evidence that animals display any kind of ESP with respect to earthquakes. Perhaps in some cases their ordinary senses can pick up things that humans are not aware of, but certainly there is no good evidence of any mystical powers.

occult is simply used in the sense that it comes from a mysterious origin

“
But the distinction people make between worldly and occult knowledge is misleading in a number of ways. Even worldly knowledge has occult origins. For example, our speech is full of phrases like, "A wonderful idea came into my head," "An inspiration struck me," "It occurred to me," "Suddenly it was clear to me." Since childhood we've grown accustomed to the popping of ideas, inspirations and intuitive hunches into our everyday field of experience. Thus we take it for granted. But the plain fact is that they pop up out of an unknown dimension.
”
There is no evidence for that.

yes, that's what makes it occult

Much more likely is that our brains are constantly making new connections between fragments of knowledge and sense perceptions that we possess.

and there is evidence for this or are you simply telling us an opinion or guessing?

Nothing has ever been shown to come from an "unknown dimension".

I guess if it had been it wouldn't be unknown -lol

but seriously, since the empirical can only indicate the relative, it seems that everything comes from the unknown - one infinite stretch at the macrocosm and another infinite stretch at the microcosm, and a few confident empiricists sharing their opinions in the middle ....

 

[Nutter]

...and there is evidence for this or are you simply telling us an opinion or guessing?

Wilt thou allow him the academic freedom of encompassing in a single utterance the options of both guessing and telling us an opinion?

 

[cosmictraveler]

Thus we take it for granted. But the plain fact is that they pop up out of an unknown dimension.

And, as a further irony, with these ideas that spring from an occult source

An unknown dimension? Can you explain to me what that means? I always thought that anything that our minds/brains come up with come only from themselves not from an unknown dimension. If it were unknown then how did our minds/brains even locate it then extract something from an unknown source? Sounds as if you are trying to make up a story about what reality is. Our own thoughts come from ourselves not from the unknown.

 

[Nutter]

An unknown dimension? Can you explain to me what that means? I always thought that anything that our minds/brains come up with come only from themselves not from an unknown dimension ... Our own thoughts come from ourselves not from the unknown.

That is a very interesting conjecture. How did you come up with that?

 

[cosmictraveler]

I thought about the statement and rationalized it in my brain/mind. After deducing the answer I then formed words and made my statement from my mind/brain.

 

[Nutter]

I thought about the statement and rationalized it in my brain/mind ...

Very good, very good.
So the statement existed before you thought about it?

 

[cosmictraveler]

As I stated, I thought about what was said in my mind/brain and formed my opinion of what was said. I then extracted my own words from my own mind/brain and produced the statement from within myself, not from the unknown reaches of space and time.

 

[lightgigantic]

As I stated, I thought about what was said in my mind/brain and formed my opinion of what was said. I then extracted my own words from my own mind/brain and produced the statement from within myself, not from the unknown reaches of space and time.

its not clear why experiencing a thought through the medium of the mind makes the mind the absolute cause

 

[cosmictraveler]

its not clear why experiencing a thought through the medium of the mind makes the mind the absolute cause

Well, in my humble opinion I think so.

 

[James R]

lightgigantic:

Anecdotes, many of which collapse under the most basic scientific scrutiny.

and also there is many that don't

Yes, some require some more advanced scientific investigation.

occult is simply used in the sense that it comes from a mysterious origin

That's not how the term is usually used.

Much more likely is that our brains are constantly making new connections between fragments of knowledge and sense perceptions that we possess.

and there is evidence for this or are you simply telling us an opinion or guessing?

There is some evidence from neuroscience. In comparison, there is no evidence at all that thoughts and ideas come from "another dimension".

but seriously, since the empirical can only indicate the relative, it seems that everything comes from the unknown - one infinite stretch at the macrocosm and another infinite stretch at the microcosm, and a few confident empiricists sharing their opinions in the middle ....

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

 

[Grantywanty]

There is no evidence that animals display any kind of ESP with respect to earthquakes. Perhaps in some cases their ordinary senses can pick up things that humans are not aware of, but certainly there is no good evidence of any mystical powers.

There is a lot of evidence that they know in advance: the recent tsunami, for example. We don't know how they do this; scientists do not have a clear explanation based on the known senses or why the animals would draw conclusions from these senses. Have tsunamis really been frequent enough to have trained the animals to immediately react to single instances in their lifetimes?

The questions raised do not prove ESP. My belief is that ESP is a natural phenomenon but an unknown one to scientists.

I feel like your reaction is to say that it doesn't exist or it is one of these phenomena that we already have reduced in scientific studies. But the history of science shows that new phenomena working via processes hitherto unknown can be at play.

You see. To me you are making an effort to close a door and there is no scientific reason to, nevertheless it is habit of many who defend science.

Rattlesnakes sensing prey with their heat sensors.
Elephants communicating with ultrasound.

Patterns were noticed by both indigenous peoples and then later by scientists that made them wonder if a NEW sense or form of communication was involved.
The indigenous peoples were not irrational for believing in what could easily have been called esp and poo pooed.
And it was not simply hearing, feeling vibrations etc. ie. senses already well chartered.

I am not fond of the term ESP and I can see how this adds to the problem here, but I feel both sides have some responsibility on the issue.

What ends up happening is a denial of the real, which I believe is a lot bigger than what scientists tend to assume it is. Or more complex. Hell, I lack an adjective.

 

[lightgigantic]

Well, in my humble opinion I think so.

primitive tribespeople are also apt to think that because a radio transmission is received through an amplifier, that the amplifier is the ultimate cause of the noise

 

[lightgigantic]

JamesR

“

“

Anecdotes, many of which collapse under the most basic scientific scrutiny.
”
and also there is many that don't
”
Yes, some require some more advanced scientific investigation.

given the foundation of such inquiries (ie the senses) there appears to be a glass ceiling on such advancements (How do you propose to investigate the mind with your sense of sight?)

“
occult is simply used in the sense that it comes from a mysterious origin
”
That's not how the term is usually used.

it was precisely the word used in reaction to Newton's proposals on the nature of gravity by the scientific community at the time

“

“
Much more likely is that our brains are constantly making new connections between fragments of knowledge and sense perceptions that we possess.
”
and there is evidence for this or are you simply telling us an opinion or guessing?
”
There is some evidence from neuroscience.

what does that mean?
10% evidence and 90% guessing?

In comparison, there is no evidence at all that thoughts and ideas come from "another dimension".

in the absence of evidence, I guess that leaves us with a "mysterious origin"

“
but seriously, since the empirical can only indicate the relative, it seems that everything comes from the unknown - one infinite stretch at the macrocosm and another infinite stretch at the microcosm, and a few confident empiricists sharing their opinions in the middle ....
”
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

empiricism can (hope) to draw connections between two objects that are physical (revealed by the senses) - for instance one can observe the relationship between water poured on fire.

But if one follows cause and effect far enough, empiricism pitters out - IOW one can indicate anything by the senses and never get a concise answer on what it is or where it came from. Thus empiricists are sharing (or more realistically, debunking each other to assert themselves) opinions between one infinite point at the macrocosm and another identically infinite point at the microcosm of which they have no entrance

 

[Photizo]

primitive tribespeople are also apt to think that because a radio transmission is received through an amplifier, that the amplifier is the ultimate cause of the noise

Hmmmm. Are you labeling the members of this august forum "primitive"?

 

[Leo Volont]

Examples from language only reflect what may well be ancient superstitions. People use the words that are given them.

However, yes, we do know of the Paranormal.

Back during the Vietnam War, the best Sergeants did not appoint their Point Men turn for turn, as each man's turn came up. That would get everybody killed. I knew one Sergeant who would put his platoon on break and then sneak up on them, remaining hidden in the bush (a dangerous thing to do, considering all the snakes, but he was brave ). The troops that would make good 'point men' would sense that they were being observed, and would actually turn and look into the brush, sometimes directly in his direction. But some of the troops would continue as usual. These are the guys that could never sense an ambush.

Now, ambushes are almost EASY to sense. You have a dozen really nervous guys aiming guns and getting ready to kill. Now who COULDN'T sense that?

I realized then that most people are psychic at least to that extent. Nowadays when I have to meet somebody at the airport, I don't bother with hand scribbled signs. I simply look for who I am looking for, and they turn around and look back. We both sense it when we find each other.

I could suggest staring at anybody, and that would make them turn around. But it doesn't always work. Especially with beautiful women. They are so used to being watched, they learn to ignore it. But if you are on speaking terms with any beautiful woman, ask her if she knows when she is being watched. The answer is "of course". They know they are being watched and they know by whom. They simply never turn around and look back... why should they? Looking back would be to return a flirt, and that is seldom what they want to do.

Oh, almost 50 years ago, when I was getting my flying licence, without knowing why, I looked back over my shoulder, just in time to dive out of the way of a Jet Liner barreling down at me.

Oh, when I was in College, decades ago, I slept through only a few classes. it turned out that each time the class had been cancelled. Somehow my sleeping self knew that I could sleep in.

Yes, there is a great deal of the paranormal that every single one of us must know about... well, except for those few guys that didn't sense the Sergeant off in the bushes. Oh, wait, maybe some guys could sense that if they did not turn around, they could get themselves out of some of the most dangerous duty of the War... going out in front to detect ambushes and land mines. yeah, these guys HAD TO BE Psychic, or they got killed.

 

[cosmictraveler]

primitive tribespeople are also apt to think that because a radio transmission is received through an amplifier, that the amplifier is the ultimate cause of the noise

So now you use this to try and establish a fact for your case, I think you had better give it up if this is the best analogy that you can think of.

 

[maxg]

But the distinction people make between worldly and occult knowledge is misleading in a number of ways. Even worldly knowledge has occult origins. For example, our speech is full of phrases like, "A wonderful idea came into my head," "An inspiration struck me," "It occurred to me," "Suddenly it was clear to me." Since childhood we've grown accustomed to the popping of ideas, inspirations and intuitive hunches into our everyday field of experience. Thus we take it for granted. But the plain fact is that they pop up out of an unknown dimension. And, as a further irony, with these ideas that spring from an occult source, we try to understand and explain the "everyday" world around us!

I DO think these experiences merely represent some kind of "intuitive" knowledge (by which I mean ideas worked out in the subconscious/unconcious that then rise to our conscious perception). They may appear "occult" in the sense that we don't currently understand how they work but there is a lot about mental activity that we don't understand. I certainly don't think there's anything supernatural about them.

 

[lightgigantic]

So now you use this to try and establish a fact for your case, I think you had better give it up if this is the best analogy that you can think of.

I use it try and establish skepticism of your case actually