The "No Fly" List

[Pangloss]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/terror/cst-nws-nofly22.html

The above article is an interesting report on current complaints against the "no-fly list" used by the new US Transportation Security Administration as part of the homeland security measures. The list has been criticized by several prominent Democrats, including Ted Kennedy and John Lewis, who found themselves placed on the list. (I believe Tiassa posted an interesting article about Kennedy's problems with the list last week.)

The main focus of this article is that apparently it's becoming very difficult for people to get OFF the list. They do mention a toll-free number ((877) 266-2837), but all that does is get you some paperwork that has to be filled out and notarized. Meanwhile the ACLU has filed two lawsuits on the issue.

I would imagine that everyone would like to see better security on airplanes, but this is starting to shape up as another example of, well, to quote typical Republican thinker George McGovern, "extremism in the defense of liberty". Um, hey George, can we try something a little *short* of extremism first? I dunno, just a thought........

 

[Nasor]

As someone who was on this list for a while, I can tell you that it’s a huge pain in the ass. There are two lists. One is an actual ‘no-fly’ list, and it’s impossible for you to get on a plane if you’re on it. The other is a ‘hassle the hell out them’ list, which is the one I was on.

Before you can get on the plane you’re interviewed by police, all your baggage is searched, your shoes and belt are taken away for a brief examination, you have metal and explosive detectors run over you, and you’re actually patted down. This lasted about 2 years, during which I flew eight times and had to go through it every singe time I got on a plane.

Why was I on the list? Because my name was the same as a known alias for some terrorist, or alleged terrorist, or someone-or-other. Once you are on the list there’s basically no way off. It’s not you the individual who’s actually on your list, it’s your name, which has no connection to you as a real person as far as the airport people are concerned.

Don’t bother trying to contact the TSA or anyone else about getting your name taken off, because it’s impossible; there’s no appeals process of any kind. The phone number listed in that article is a complete waste of time. In order to file a request to get your name taken off you have to know which agency put you (or more accurately your name) on the list in the first place, which is something that the TSA won’t tell you. Since virtually any federal agency from the FBI to the State Department to the U.S. Postal Service can put names on the list, the average person has zero chance of successfully filing an application to be removed. I guess if you actually know that the FBI or some other particular agency is investigating you as a suspected terrorist then you might be able to take a stab at getting off the list, but for the average person who’s only on the list because someone they’ve never heard of used a similar name to buy a passport once, there’s basically nothing you can do.

Fortunately, about a year ago the hassling just stopped and I haven’t been singled out since. I’ve read that the list is constantly being updated, so apparently one of those ‘updates’ took my name off.

 

[Pangloss]

Interesting post, Nasor, thanks.

 

[Stokes Pennwalt]

Interesting post, Nasor, thanks.

Yeah. Seriously, that's some stupid shit. Kinda funny how Ted Kennedy was on it for a little bit though.

 

[Repo Man]

This sounds like some sort of beaureaucratic nightmare straight out of Kafka, or Terry Gilliam's excellent movie Brazil.

As usual, I seriously doubt that this measure will stop (or even slow) terrorists entry or movement in the U.S.

 

[Bells]

Nasor, you have given the perfect demonstration of bureaucracy gone mad and where common sense has given way to panic and the removal of rights.

Kinda funny how Ted Kennedy was on it for a little bit though.

Heh. I shouldn't laugh because it is so annoying and frankly rightly upsetting to anyone who has been put on that list... but the stupidity of such a list does amuse me in some sick sort of way. I wonder if old Teddy got on the list because a terrorist used his name as an alias or because Teddy has been so vocal about Bush.

 

[spidergoat]

You don't have to wonder why Ted Kennedy was on that list, accident my ass! The same way you don't have to wonder why Howard Stern got fined after the Janet Jackson incident, the Bush administration is a bunch of lying, brutal thugs.

 

[Pangloss]

I could see putting Kennedy on the "no drive" or "no bridges" lists, but no fly? That's just silly.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Is such a list really useful? I can understand that the US government tries to limit the possibilities for terrorist, but as far as I know, those criminals can just choose another identity, using a new set of forged or stolen papers. So I seriously doubt that the list does much to hinder them, rather, it hinders the innocents. It must be a big problem for people who have no time to go through these increased security measures everytime they board a flight in the USA. I think of managers and others whose job it is to travel over the globe, and normally those people have an urge to travel fast because time is money.

 

[Stokes Pennwalt]

I could see putting Kennedy on the "no drive" or "no bridges" lists, but no fly? That's just silly.

Hahahaha.

 

[Tiassa]

From Olbermann's Countdown, August 20, 2004:

. . . it turns out Senator Kennedy may not even have the worst story in Congress.*

A Georgia congressman says he has been stopped 35 to 40 times just over the last year, even subjected to body searches.* He‘s John Lewis, the same John Lewis who was beaten senseless in what was supposed to be the non-violent March in Selma, Alabama, and who stood with Martin Luther King before the Lincoln Memorial.

Source: MSNBC

Out of sheer curiosity, have any famous names from the conservative side of the aisle encountered difficulties? I mean, don't get me wrong. "John Lewis"? Yeah, I can see how that would cause trouble before even "Edward M. Kennedy". But the senior senator from Massachusetts and the U.S. Representative for the greater portion of Atlanta? Maybe if they'd been stopped in FAT or PDX, but at their home airports? That's just gotta sting.

 

[Pangloss]

By the way, I think it's safe to say these will continue, in the light of what's happened now in Russia. (Explosives were found at both of those near-simultaneous crash sites today.) If anything it'll get stepped up. And don't expect it to stop if Kerry gets elected. The TSA and Tom Ridge have both enjoyed bipartisan support from the get-go, in spite of the high-level complaints mentioned above.

 

[Killjoy]

...to quote typical Republican thinker George McGovern, "extremism in the defense of liberty". Um, hey George, can we try something a little *short* of extremism first? I dunno, just a thought........

I just want to point out that the statement -

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!

was actually made by Barry Goldwater during the speech he gave accepting of the Republican nomination as candidate for the Presidency in 1964.

George McGovern was, in fact, a Democrat who served as a US senator, and ran for President against Richard Nixon in 1972.

 

[Pangloss]

Indeed, thanks for the correction.

 

[fireguy_31]

I could see putting Kennedy on the "no drive" or "no bridges" lists, but no fly? That's just silly.

That made me laugh - good stuff Pang...

Nasor
Wow, that would be a major pain in the ass - no pun intended *rubber glove?* (sorry, i'll be serious now) Seems to me that a persons liberty is gone at the very moment they're not afforded an opportunity to defend themselves against accusations. It really boggles my mind how a supposed Democratic Government/Society has the power to do such a thing, never mind the ability of getting away with it.

Maybe someone here can enlighten me: Does the TSA run those names forwarded to them through some sort of screening or follow-up process? I mean, is there any justification that those people [alias's] pose a threat? If so, what is that justification and from what authority does it receive assent?

 

[Nasor]

Maybe someone here can enlighten me: Does the TSA run those names forwarded to them through some sort of screening or follow-up process? I mean, is there any justification that those people [alias's] pose a threat? If so, what is that justification and from what authority does it receive assent?

Any federal agency can put names on the list. The TSA just takes the list and uses it. They don’t try to conduct any sort of investigation, they just take whatever they get from the FBI etc. The only way to get off the list is to appeal to whatever agency put you (or more accurately your name) on the list in the first place, and ask them to take you off.

 

[SpyMoose]

My first and last names are both shockingly common, like one step away from Bob Smith. I wonder what that means for my chanses of getting on an airplaine.