The logical implications of rejecting God

[1Dude]

“I realize I am going to die, and forever cease to exist. My life is just a momentary transition out of oblivion into oblivion. And the universe, too, faces death. Scientists tell us that the universe is expanding, and everything in it is growing farther and farther apart. As it does so, it grows colder and colder, and its energy is used up. Eventually all the stars will burn out, and all matter will collapse into dead stars and black holes. There will be no light at all; there will be no heat; there will be no life; only the corpses of dead stars and galaxies, ever expanding into the endless darkness and the cold recesses of space – a universe in ruins. The entire universe marches irreversibly towards its grave. So not only is the life of each individual person doomed; the entire human race is doomed. The universe is plunging toward inevitable extinction – death is written throughout its structure. There is no escape. There is no hope.

Look at it from another perspective: Scientists say that the universe originated in an explosion called the “Big Bang” about fifteen billion years ago. Suppose the Big Bang had never occurred. Suppose the universe had never existed. What ultimate difference would it make? The universe is doomed to die anyway. In the end it makes no difference whether the universe ever existed or not. Therefore, it is without ultimate significance.

The same is true for the human race. Mankind is a doomed race in a dying universe. Because the human race will eventually cease to exist, it makes no ultimate difference whether it ever did exist. Mankind is thus no more significant than a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs, for their end is the same. The same blind cosmic process that coughed them up in the first place will eventually swallow them all again.

And the same is true for each individual person. The contributions of the scientist to the advance of human knowledge, the researches of the doctor to alleviate pain and suffering, the efforts of the diplomat to secure peace in the world, the sacrifices of good men everywhere to better the lot of the human race – all these come to nothing. In the end they don’t make one bit of difference, not one bit. Each person’s life is therefore without ultimate significance. And because our lives are meaningless, the activities we fill our lives with are also meaningless. The long hours spent in study at the university, our jobs, our interests, our friendships – all these are, in the final analysis, utterly meaningless. This is the horror of modern man; because he ends in nothing, he is nothing.” (1994, William Lane Craig)


John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

 

[shrubby pegasus]

im missing your point. why is some ultimate significance required for you to find meaning and concern for the human condition. we are creatures of free will anc conscienceness. i find satisfaction in the beauty and complexity of the universe around.

 

[1Dude]

why is some ultimate significance required for you to find meaning and concern for the human condition.

I guess, simply because I really cannot find any meaning in my life without it. I also have concern for the human condition and I also find satisfaction in the beauty and complexity of the universe. But even that to me is vanity and nothingness in the big picture of things without God. Thank you very much for your response and your question! I will consider your words further!

 

[JustARide]

1Dude,

It seems you want to equate meaning with permanence. If something does not last forever or leave some permanent mark on the matter of the universe, then it is ipso facto meaningless, in your view.

I can understand this outlook because I once would have agreed with you. Even as a kid, I wanted to make sure everything I created would last--and not just a few days, but forever. As humans we tend to look for some end result, some realized goal that retroactively imbues everything that led up to it with some significance (eg "If I hadn't learned to walk, then ride a bike, then drive a car, I wouldn't be where I am today.") Much of this is true; our greatest achievements are usually the result of a series of actions undertaken to specifically reach some goal. So, we like to extend that idea beyond our own lives, hoping that our actions lead the ultimate goal of Heaven... or Hell. (One might wonder if Heaven gets boring after a while, considering there is nothing left to achieve.)

But if permanence is your sole measure of meaning, then what of life on Earth? If you love your father and he dies, did his life mean nothing? Certainly not to you. True his memory will likely be forgotten in the collectively remembered "history of the world," but does that extinguish his meaning altogether?

I would argue the most valuable things in life are often fleeting. What makes a moment special, if not that it cannot be relived in exactly the same fashion? What makes the life of a great person unique, if not that his/her life was temporary?

Your post reminded me a quote from the late great Stanley Kubrick:

"The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent, but if we can come to terms with this indifference, then our existence as a species can have genuine meaning. However vast the darkess, we must supply our own light."​

I don't pretend to know the answers to the big questions--how we got here, where we're going, what it all means. But I know something is not worthless because it only lasts for a little while.

I find the Christian God to be somewhat of a lackluster answer to the meaning question--mainly because belief in eternal life, reward and punishment still does not necessarily give meaning to existence. It merely prolongs it, with a grander facade. The Christian God does not offer meaning so much as judgment. Everything we do will be judged, and we will delight or suffer eternally in the consequences. That's just a glorified version of what we have down here. "Here are the rules. Follow them and have a shot at happiness or disobey them and be punished." Would that make your life more meaningful? Or just add another layer of rules and rewards?

Or a better question might be: does the fact that you obey laws and are thus judged capable by society on Earth give your life meaning right now? If not, then why do you think an eternal version of the same system will?

The traditional notion of Heaven also lacks a number of things that in fact make life on Earth more meaningful--tension, creativity, risk, open possibility, surprise. That's part of the irony of Heaven. People assign all sorts of magnificent attributes to it based on what we like down here. Hence, the streets will be "paved with gold." But what makes gold so valuable down here is not its color (which can be easily copied or faked), but its rareness. So might a Heaven full of gold actually devalue gold? The question of an eternal afterlife might fall in the same category. Would time mean anything in eternity? Would there be any reason to actually do anything in Heaven?

Meaning is more elusive, I think. All I can say is that it is not as simple as whether something lives on forever or only lasts a day. But maybe that's just me.

Josh

 

[Raithere]

"In the end they don’t make one bit of difference, not one bit. Each person’s life is therefore without ultimate significance. And because our lives are meaningless, the activities we fill our lives with are also meaningless. The long hours spent in study at the university, our jobs, our interests, our friendships – all these are, in the final analysis, utterly meaningless. This is the horror of modern man; because he ends in nothing, he is nothing.” (1994, William Lane Craig)

This is simply the result of ego, the need that many people have to be of some special significance. Once you're able to release this desire you become quite content. There is no meaning without life and life is now.

~Raithere

 

[SpyMoose]

the universe is expanding, and everything in it is growing farther and farther apart. As it does so, it grows colder and colder, and its energy is used up. Eventually all the stars will burn out, and all matter will collapse into dead stars and black holes. There will be no light at all; there will be no heat

That’s a big negative there partner. Like the law of conservation of energy states, energy can neither be created or destroyed. It doesn’t just wiffle out into nothing, it just escapes us. Energy is not immune to gravity. Once gravity has joined all matter back together again (see law of universal gravitation) all the energy that has been moving outward at the speed of light since the universes creation must eventually return, probably to a black hole like singularity. Everything released by the big bag will be reunited into a singularity, and who knows, maybe that’s what it takes to bang again. This is not my own theory, theists do not have the monopoly on speculation over where the universe came from and where it is going. The difference is, models like this have basis in facts, and may not be wholly accurate. Models dreamed up by theists are based in wishful fancy, and will be treated as wholly accurate by theists. If anyone is going to overlook highschool level science in favor of their own goals I guess it’s a theist.

 

[Katazia]

1Dude,

Ah I love the way Christians paint and encourage a depressing story of the uselessness of mankind to justify their fantasies, but here the story is somewhat out of date, and what is being asserted as indisputable facts are in fact ever changing theories.

Let’s start with the punchline –

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

The all time famous quote designed to be a real tear jerker. But the real big problem with this essential basis of Christianity is that God ended up not giving anything – Jesus is meant to have been resurrected which kinda blows away any concept that God has suffered some major loss for which we should feel sorry for him. Had Jesus really died and was lost forever then we could perhaps feel some sympathy for God. Otherwise John 3:16 is a lie – nothing was lost or given up or given.

But to the universe issue – current theories (mainly inspired by new theories on dark matter) show that the universe is more probably expanding and collapsing in a possible infinite loop. No one as yet knows for certain how the big bang started or whether it was the first or that its result is the entire universe, or whether it is just a bubble in a much larger universe of an infinite number of bubble universes.

The next real step for science is to achieve immortality through probably neuroscience, anti-aging and high technology. And when that is achieved we will have a differnt outlook on life and the future.

But the meaning of life depends on who perceives the meaning – on an individual basis everyone can determine their own meaning. But in the end what does it matter if life has no meaning as long as it continues. For me I enjoy life because I am alive – I have no need for it to have meaning.

Kat

 

[spidergoat]

Just because a personified, patriarchal, middle eastern-style god is wrong, doesn't make the scientific view right. Science has alot to say about small specific things, but they are at a loss to describe what is going on in the universe as a whole. As the universe cools, it complexifies. The process is similar to crystalization. Out of the furnace of the early universe, came mankind; possibly the most complex structure yet existing, if measured by density of connections in the brain. That makes people quite central to the process of everything. Yet physics has nothing to say about this, it doesn't predict it. They relegate the study of people to anthropology, sociology, biology, and religion, but people are one aspect of how the universe behaves.

You think you are going to die, because you place an artificial frame of meaning around the individual body. This is nothing more than a fantasy. The universe didn't do this, your culture did, and you believed it. It is like saying, " oh, what a shame being a leaf, you only live one year, and then you are gone forever," not realizing that you are the tree. You say the universe is expanding, so we are doomed. While I tend to agree the universe expands, think what could happen before then. Think what has happened with technology in a mere 100 years. We went from wooden sailing ships to the moon. What will happen in the next hundred is truly inconcievable, to say nothing of the next million. We will become like Gods. In fact I think this is the function of the idea of God. God is the idealized human, no longer subject to the limitations of the body, its internal desires transformed into external forces at will. This is our future.

And because our lives are meaningless, the activities we fill our lives with are also meaningless. The long hours spent in study at the university, our jobs, our interests, our friendships – all these are, in the final analysis, utterly meaningless. This is the horror of modern man; because he ends in nothing, he is nothing.” (1994, William Lane Craig)

I suppose this view is how religious people look at atheistic, scientific people. It is the product of religion, in the same way as rock and roll fans look at classical music- as perhaps pretty sounds that ultimately amount to nothing. What are people supposed to do in heaven that is so meaningful? Lets look at this. They are said to celebrate the glory of God, traditionally by singing "halleluyah", which is a nonsense word, meaning the same thing as horray, or yippee. So, heaven is something like a big party, where everyone is happy. I say that's great, and its greatness lies precisely in its meaninglessness. If happiness in heaven is so worthy of attainment, why not happiness on Earth, too? Why not happiness without heaven? Why not transform Earth into Heaven?

 

[1Dude]

Josh:

I can only tell you what happened in my own heart on this matter. I used to have to live an internal lie to be happy. It was irrational and inconsistent for me to hold both that life is ultimately meaningless and hopeless, and yet still remain happy. It was impossible for me personally to believe in despair but live in happiness. I was definitely able to temporarily divert my mind from thinking about it now and then through a good book or a good movie. But when it was over and done, despair always came back and stayed until the next distraction. My life had built in logical contradictions at a foundational level. There are a lot of things I have not figured out but I do know that Jesus Christ gave me the hope that was missing in my life. Since I now believe in hope I can finally live in happiness and be internally consistent. The above may not apply to anyone else but me.

Thank you for your excellent post. I have to tell you, I have seen some of your posts on other threads and so far I have been really impressed. You have a very smart, considerate and thoughtful mind!

 

[moementum7]

Ahh, a student thirsty for knowledge!
Looking to fill that undfineable void eh?
Forging a conscious philosophy. Good man.
Full time job isn't it.
Good ol' philosophy.
But why do we need philosophy?
A philosophic system is an integrated view of existence. As a human being, you have no choice about the fact that you need a philosophy. Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation -- or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: self-doubt, like a ball and chain in the place where your mind's wings should have grown.

A good start to proper knowledge is understanding the fundamentals of existence and your relationship to it. Such as understanding the concepts of an Axiom.

An axiom is an irreducible primary. It doesn't rest upon anything in order to be valid, and it cannot be proven by any "more basic" premises. A true axiom can not be refuted because the act of trying to refute it requires that very axiom as a premise. An attempt to contradict an axiom can only end in a contradiction.

The term "axiom" has been abused in many different ways, so it is important to distinguish the proper definition from the others. The other definitions amount to calling any arbitrary postulate an 'axiom'. The famous example of this is Euclidean geometry. Euclid was a Greek mathematician who applied deductive logic to a few postulates, which he called axioms. In this sense, "axiom" was used to mean a postulate which one was sure was true. Later, though, it was shown that his postulates were sometimes false, and so the conclusions he made were equally false. The "axiom" he used was basing his geometry on a two dimensional plane. When his work was applied to the surface of a sphere, though, it broke down. A triangle's three angles add up to 180 degrees on a plane; they do not add up to 180 degrees on the surface of a sphere. The point is that Euclid's "axioms" were actually postulates.

True axioms are more solid than that. They are not statements we merely believe to be true; they are statements that we cannot deny without using them in our denial. Axioms are the foundation of all knowledge. There are only a few axioms that have been identified. These are: Existence Exists, The Law of Identity, and Consciousness.
It is with the integration and understanding of these axioms that makes all other knowledge possible.
This is a good place to start.
Thanks for your time.

 

[JustARide]

Josh:

I can only tell you what happened in my own heart on this matter. I used to have to live an internal lie to be happy. It was irrational and inconsistent for me to hold both that life is ultimately meaningless and hopeless, and yet still remain happy. It was impossible for me personally to believe in despair but live in happiness. I was definitely able to temporarily divert my mind from thinking about it now and then through a good book or a good movie. But when it was over and done, despair always came back and stayed until the next distraction. My life had built in logical contradictions at a foundational level. There are a lot of things I have not figured out but I do know that Jesus Christ gave me the hope that was missing in my life. Since I now believe in hope I can finally live in happiness and be internally consistent. The above may not apply to anyone else but me.

I can relate to your situation in some respects -- though ultimately, I've resolved some of my own internal dissonance in a different manner.

For a few years, right around the end of college and to some extent in high school, I really struggled with the question of meaning. I saw my life going nowhere quick and wondered "Is this it?" My story may in fact be the reverse of yours. I grew up in a Christian household (albeit not terribly strict) and tacitly accepted the tenets of Christianity into my teens -- did youth group, worship services, the whole nine. But eventually, religion became stale and unusable. College opened my eyes to questions I had earlier dismissed for no reason other than they contradicted some part of my church's doctrine. I saw a "light" of sorts, but it wasn't coming from religion or Jesus or God (at least one I was familiar with). In a way, I had a new religion - one where asking and doubting were virtues rather than sins.

But I can empathize... I tried to hide in diversion as well, and as you know, it doesn't work. The fundamental questions will come back to haunt you if you don't face them (though, admittedly, some people seem to have absolutely no curiosity when it comes to philosophy or even asking "big questions"... c'est la vie). For many, this confrontation is inevitable.

My life philosophy - if one has such a thing - is rooted in a kind of Taoist/Agnostic hybrid. I toyed with atheism for a while but found it left just as big a hole as Christianity did. Both fundamentalist theism and atheism, I decided, were too certain in their assertions. So I adopted what I believe to be the humble practice of agnosticism - not as a philosophical stopping point, mind you - but as a springboard.

Why am I mentioning all of this? Well, if the question here is meaning, then I think it's worth considering that meaning takes many different forms for different people. Western thought tends to value linear time, product, tidy resolution, and reason. These are not necessarily bad things and I can see how Christianity largely satisfies these needs; it has the narrative tension, the conflict, and the tidy good/bad resolution at the end. But it is my contention that meaning can also be found in things that are not so clear-cut. Maybe it's my more European sensibilities talking, but what I enjoy about life is not so much the Hollywood happy ending (or the hope for it), but the continuation of the mystery, the open-ended question. Agnostics are often accused of worshipping their own uncertainty, and I admit I may be guilty of that (hence my addiction to David Lynch films), but I think meaning can be found in not-knowing.

After all....

What makes opening presents fun as a child? Not knowing what it is inside.
What makes a story interesting to read? Not knowing what happens next.
Likewise, what makes life's questions meaningful? That fact that they exist.​

Christianity and atheism both answer far too many questions, in my view. Their premature declarations smack of a level of desperation to me. As Isaac Asimov said, "To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." That would be my only caution as you search for answers (even if those answers lead you back to what you currently believe). Some might say it depends on what you want: truth or happiness. I'd say it's possible to leave the question of meaning largely open, but continue to hope, and thus have your proverbial cake and eat it too.

My little revelation came after reading the Tao Te Ching, an admittedly vague spiritual guide, but a useful one in terms of framing the larger questions, and James Carse's "Finite and Infinite Games." I found maintaining that sense of awe, mystery, and wonder is key to remaining fulfilled. Coming to peace with the big question is more difficult for some -- they need concrete answers. If that's the case, I still urge you to leave your possibilities open and not to hold to one dogma only because it keeps you happy. A little confusion is worth the risk.

You mentioned in your original post how seeing the universe itself as meaningless necessitates seeing one's job, money, possessions, relationships, etc. as also pointless. That is a natural conclusion, but I might add that that broad view, while depressing for some, can also be turned into a positive. When we consider life from such a cold distance, we can put the more tedious aspects of it in perspective. I quote the comedian Bill Hicks often because he echoes this point:

"It's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love."​

Whew. Sorry about the length. But hey, we're talking about the meaning of life, right?

Thank you for your excellent post. I have to tell you, I have seen some of your posts on other threads and so far I have been really impressed. You have a very smart, considerate and thoughtful mind!

You must not have read any of my posts in sci-fi!

But thanks for the consideration.

(If only all posts were this civil... but I digress.)

Josh

 

[1Dude]

Josh:

I am not sure exactly what your Christian upbringing background was but here is a little of mine. I was raised in a Christian home but I was a skeptic at heart as I was growing up. I never really made myself study the things that were taught in order to make them a part of my life. I did not really accept the Christian faith as my own until I was in college when I was forced to deal with the challenges I encountered there. At that point in my life I became determined to find out the truth as best I could about the Christian faith. I was really tired of not knowing. I was tired of my own agnosticism. I needed to base my life on something real, something solid. A Catholic friend of mine handed me a 600 page catechism book which I devoured to see if that faith was true. I compared what I found there to the Bible and decided that Catholicism was a muddy mix of truth and error. I then looked into the history of the Catholic Church and discovered the atrocities that it had committed in the name of Christ. These two things made me throw it out as a reliable source of truth. Please do not get me wrong. There are many good people in the Catholic Church and I do not wish to attack them but I also believe that their leadership has largely become puffed up in arrogance, pride, and power. They have become, perhaps, like the scribes Jesus described below.

Luke 20:45-47
“And while all the people were listening, He (Jesus) said to the disciples, "Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love respectful greetings in the market places, and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets, who devour widows' houses, and for appearance's sake offer long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation."

In my opinion, many, not all, of their leadership have become the very thing that Jesus detested. I saw all of this but could not blame any of it on Jesus Christ for He strongly and directly spoke out against this kind of arrogance and abuse of power. I could have rejected all of Christianity on this basis but I chose to look further. I decided to take a look into Christian apologetics to see if there was really any solid evidence for the Christian faith. I eventually found a copy of Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. The evidence in that book and others eventually brought me to a place where I placed my faith in Jesus Christ. It became for me faith based on evidence. Again, I admit that I do not have everything figured out but I have to tell you that to me it is far and away better to have a foundation on Jesus Christ than to have no foundation at all. Agnosticism held exactly that for me, no foundation at all.

Thanks again for your thoughtful discussion!

 

[JustARide]

I eventually found a copy of Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. The evidence in that book and others eventually brought me to a place where I placed my faith in Jesus Christ. It became for me faith based on evidence. Again, I admit that I do not have everything figured out but I have to tell you that to me it is far and away better to have a foundation on Jesus Christ than to have no foundation at all. Agnosticism held exactly that for me, no foundation at all.

Thanks again for your thoughtful discussion!

About finding evidence of a religion's truth -- what would you say is most important to you: logical proof, scientific documentation of Biblical stories, consistent dogma, maybe a--for lack of a better word--"spiritual" kind of truth? Or something else?

I was given a copy of John McDowell's Evidence that Demands a Verdict, but it failed to convince me of much, mostly because I saw holes in the reasoning (eg. the fallacies behind the Three-L Defense). So I guess I'm curious what really drives the conclusion so many reach to follow Christianity. Is it really proof or "evidence" of something? To me, it seems like you navigated your way out of agnosticism because you needed something definable to worship (a "foundation," in your words), so is evidence really necessary?

And one other question I always have ... If it came to pass that your conclusions about God, Jesus, or the afterlife were wrong, would you then look back and feel your decision had been premature? Or is having a faith right now--whatever that faith may be--worth the bet, if only to provide some foundation for living?

You'll have to excuse all the questions... it seems I rarely encounter a religious conversation that isn't filled with evangelical calls to action, outright arrogance, or instant name-calling.

Josh

 

[§outh§tar]

Vanity of vanities!
All is vanity, says the Preacher.


Only in God is fulfilling peace found, striving on one's "own accord" is extreme futility and the end result will be the same as the animals.

"If" it came to pass that my conclusions about God, Jesus, and the afterlife were wrong, then I would scorn Satan, for he too would be futile in tricking me, thanks to the Almighty God, who sent His Spirit of Holiness to shield me from the snares of the wicked one.

The heavens reflect, or show "evidence" of God. So does humankind. When man chose to rebel and shake his fist at God, God wisely left him to his own devices, which proved to be but futile, as I have previously stated.

 

[Katazia]

SouthStar,

Well if you are going to preach then I may as well add balance to the topic.

Only in God is fulfilling peace found,

Only the use of freedom that comes when one learns to think for oneself can peace be found. The reliance on superstitions and the fairy tale myths of gods brings confusion and feelings of guilt and distress.

striving on one's "own accord" is extreme futility and the end result will be the same as the animals.

Taking personal responsibility for one’s actions takes courage and intelligence, only the weak minded and gullible depend on fairy tale superstitions to provide a delusion of comfort.

"If" it came to pass that my conclusions about God, Jesus, and the afterlife were wrong, then I would scorn Satan,

If you were wrong about them then you would be wrong about Satan as well since he is part of the same mythology. Please try to show some consistency and perhaps even an attempt at logic with your ranting.

for he too would be futile in tricking me, thanks to the Almighty God, who sent His Spirit of Holiness to shield me from the snares of the wicked one.

You should consider that you have the roles of God and Satan reversed – Satan reveals the harshness and truth of reality and where we must use our intelligence, knowledge and courage to endure, but God says all that is worthless and tries to lure you to his side with false promises of a non existent paradise afterlife, but insists you worship him as payment, which of course feeds his oversized and evil ego which is his true goal.

The heavens reflect, or show "evidence" of God.

Hmm, don’t think anyone has been to heaven and returned to reveal any such evidence yet. Or have you died and already returned?

So does humankind.

Humans arose through abiogenesis and then evolution. No gods have ever been involved.

When man chose to rebel and shake his fist at God,

Don’t be silly, you can’t shake your fist at something that doesn’t exist, for example, in which direction would you face?

God wisely left him to his own devices, which proved to be but futile,

You mean science right? Which has enabled mankind to slowly move from the drudgery, ignorance and terror of religious superstitions, to knowledge, wisdom, and discovery of real truth. Something that religions have fought against since their inception.

Kat

 

[JustARide]

Only in God is fulfilling peace found, striving on one's "own accord" is extreme futility and the end result will be the same as the animals.

Ahh, there's that arrogance we were missing. Thanks.

Josh

 

[§outh§tar]

SouthStar,

Well if you are going to preach then I may as well add balance to the topic.

Only the use of freedom that comes when one learns to think for oneself can peace be found. The reliance on superstitions and the fairy tale myths of gods brings confusion and feelings of guilt and distress.

Taking personal responsibility for one’s actions takes courage and intelligence, only the weak minded and gullible depend on fairy tale superstitions to provide a delusion of comfort.

If you were wrong about them then you would be wrong about Satan as well since he is part of the same mythology. Please try to show some consistency and perhaps even an attempt at logic with your ranting.

You should consider that you have the roles of God and Satan reversed – Satan reveals the harshness and truth of reality and where we must use our intelligence, knowledge and courage to endure, but God says all that is worthless and tries to lure you to his side with false promises of a non existent paradise afterlife, but insists you worship him as payment, which of course feeds his oversized and evil ego which is his true goal.

Hmm, don’t think anyone has been to heaven and returned to reveal any such evidence yet. Or have you died and already returned?

Humans arose through abiogenesis and then evolution. No gods have ever been involved.

Don’t be silly, you can’t shake your fist at something that doesn’t exist, for example, in which direction would you face?

You mean science right? Which has enabled mankind to slowly move from the drudgery, ignorance and terror of religious superstitions, to knowledge, wisdom, and discovery of real truth. Something that religions have fought against since their inception.

Kat

Since you claim to be adding "balance" to my statement I understand that you have come in utter opposition to what I have said, which I will take into account.

First, define this "freedom" you are talking about. Mankind has been enslaved by sin since the fall of Adam. Read the book of Romans if you are ignorant on this fact. If someone had to teach you how to lie, how to break promises and so on because you just did not know how then I will agree that you are right. Then again, no one taught you how to do these things and yet you KNEW how to do them, someone had to teach you, rather, how to conform to society's values. (Remember, as I respond, I am taking into account the fact that you oppose what I said).

only the weak minded and gullible depend on fairy tale superstitions to provide a delusion of comfort.

I am especially amused by this statement since it so adequately describes you. Such irony! As I have explained using the childhood scenario earlier, EVERYONE is weakminded and gullible, I will be shocked if you disagree with this. On different, levels, maybe, but nevertheless "weakminded" and "gullible". Your flawed theories give you the, and I quote, "delusion of comfort". Your fairy tale superstitions of being "independent" of God.

Instead of addressing each of your comments and making this reply tedious, I will leave you to soak in what the apostle Paul spake. (Culled from BibleGateway.com)

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

I hope you read through since this addresses a lot of the topics. Thanks.

 

[Q25]

“I realize I am going to die, and forever cease to exist. My life is just a momentary transition out of oblivion into oblivion. And the universe, too, faces death. Scientists tell us that the universe is expanding, and everything in it is growing farther and farther apart. As it does so, it grows colder and colder, and its energy is used up. Eventually all the stars will burn out, and all matter will collapse into dead stars and black holes. There will be no light at all; there will be no heat; there will be no life; only the corpses of dead stars and galaxies, ever expanding into the endless darkness and the cold recesses of space – a universe in ruins. The entire universe marches irreversibly towards its grave. So not only is the life of each individual person doomed; the entire human race is doomed. The universe is plunging toward inevitable extinction – death is written throughout its structure. There is no escape. There is no hope.

Look at it from another perspective: Scientists say that the universe originated in an explosion called the “Big Bang” about fifteen billion years ago. Suppose the Big Bang had never occurred. Suppose the universe had never existed. What ultimate difference would it make? The universe is doomed to die anyway. In the end it makes no difference whether the universe ever existed or not. Therefore, it is without ultimate significance.

The same is true for the human race. Mankind is a doomed race in a dying universe. Because the human race will eventually cease to exist, it makes no ultimate difference whether it ever did exist. Mankind is thus no more significant than a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs, for their end is the same. The same blind cosmic process that coughed them up in the first place will eventually swallow them all again.

And the same is true for each individual person. The contributions of the scientist to the advance of human knowledge, the researches of the doctor to alleviate pain and suffering, the efforts of the diplomat to secure peace in the world, the sacrifices of good men everywhere to better the lot of the human race – all these come to nothing. In the end they don’t make one bit of difference, not one bit. Each person’s life is therefore without ultimate significance. And because our lives are meaningless, the activities we fill our lives with are also meaningless. The long hours spent in study at the university, our jobs, our interests, our friendships – all these are, in the final analysis, utterly meaningless. This is the horror of modern man; because he ends in nothing, he is nothing.” (1994, William Lane Craig)


John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

let me get this straight,everything ends even the Universe,but if you believe in jebus you will live forever!?
if that makes sense to you,youre one silly poophed

imo this life is all we have,thats why living is EVERYTHING,

 

[1Dude]

let me get this straight,everything ends even the Universe,but if you believe in jebus you will live forever!?
if that makes sense to you,youre one silly poophed

Thank You Q25!

 

[§outh§tar]

believing in jebus will NOT let you live forever.


Try confessing your sins and admitting that Jesus is God and you will surely be on the correct path.