The Line between Evil and Insanity

C

Cellar_Door

Whose Worth's unknown
Registered Senior Member
It would hardly be original to point out that evil is a subjective concept. What is considered evil has changed over the centuries and depending on where you happen to be. However, none of this changes the fact that it exists. We use the word all the time. Often referring to religion, historical events, modern-day criminals or characters in books.

So to avoid confusion, I'd like to point out that any subsequent use of the word will be referring to 'Moral Evil'. That is to say, a deliberate move to go against what civilised peoples of the world currently consider to be moral behaviour. It's not watertight, but it'll do.

Case 1 of 3. Albert Fish. 1870 - 1936

Rape, paedophilia, torture, cannibalism, murder, mutilation, extreme self-harm and masochism, coprophagia and drinking urine were among his many perversions. Read the link for the gory details. He often targeted the (for want of a better term) mentally-retarded .

Long family history of mental illness, compulsive liar and diagnosed with religious psychosis. Would hear voices (supposedly from God and Saint Peter ) that would tell him to harm children. Pleaded insanity but was declared sane. Subsequently executed.


Obviously dangerous, but insane? Does insanity excuse any of his crimes? Would he be worse in your eyes if he was rationally minded? Do you agree with his execution?
 
I have an interest in serial killers, and I'm familiar with Mr. Fish and his disturbing letters.

Cellar_Door said:
...Rape, paedophilia, torture, cannibalism, murder, mutilation, extreme self-harm and masochism, coprophagia and drinking urine were among his many perversions. Read the link for the gory details. He often targeted the (for want of a better term) mentally-retarded .

Long family history of mental illness, compulsive liar and diagnosed with religious psychosis. Would hear voices (supposedly from God and Saint Peter ) that would tell him to harm children. Pleaded insanity but was declared sane. Subsequently executed.


Obviously dangerous, but insane? Does insanity excuse any of his crimes? Would he be worse in your eyes if he was rationally minded? Do you agree with his execution?
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He also had the unfortunate habit of jamming pins between his testes and anus. Mr. Fish was not a sane man. He harmed himself, and that lack of self-preservation is a pretty good sign something is amiss. And if Albert were alive today, I wouldn't want him in with the general population or even the general prison population. He would need to be isolated.

I'm not sure what you mean by "excuse." Can you explain that?

I think I'd be angrier toward someone who was totally cool, sane, and collected with a fully intact sense of preservation. That chilling antisocial behavior while having a rational mind is just terrifying.

I don't believe in the death penalty, so, no, I don't agree with it here.
 
Problem: Sanity is as subjective a concept as evil.

If Mr. Fish only fantasized about his illegal actions, harmed himself in private, and read stories to children at the library in his spare time, is he insane? Evil?

Let's get closer to the theoretical border between these ideas.

If I am a serial killer, but only of pedophiles and violent criminals...

If I enjoy playing with the intestines of road kill...

If I'm convinced my left foot is trying to escape to dominate the world with song...

Are you sure your friends and loved ones aren't thinking these things? If not, and if they are, would you say they are insane? evil?
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
Problem: Sanity is as subjective a concept as evil.

If Mr. Fish only fantasized about his illegal actions, harmed himself in private, and read stories to children at the library in his spare time, is he insane? Evil?

Let's get closer to the theoretical border between these ideas.

If I am a serial killer, but only of pedophiles and violent criminals...

If I enjoy playing with the intestines of road kill...

If I'm convinced my left foot is trying to escape to dominate the world with song...

Are you sure your friends and loved ones aren't thinking these things? If not, and if they are, would you say they are insane? evil?
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Insanity isn't designated toward thoughts but actions. The law, society cares not what people think only what they do.
 
Lucysnow said:
Insanity isn't designated toward thoughts but actions. The law, society cares not what people think only what they do.
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How odd, Lucy, you have that exactly backwards!

The law does, indeed, care about the thoughts of the accused ....and in courts, they often excuse the actions, even heinous murder, because of what the accused thought. I.e., "The devil made me do it!" ahh, "Not guilty by reason of what he was thinking."

Baron Max
 
No dumbass they care about thoughts in terms of motivation of action. Jesus Baron there are free back-to-school programs why don't you try them? Chewin' tobacca don't make your thoughts any clearer bubba
 
Lucysnow said:
No dumbass they care about thoughts in terms of motivation of action.
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Originally Posted by Lucysnow: "Insanity isn't designated toward thoughts but actions. The law, society cares not what people think only what they do."

I rest my case.

And, Lucy, I've always found that those who resort to personal attacks are usually the ones who have little or no thoughts of any value to anyone. You're more than welcome to continue the personal attacks, sometimes they're fun to read. But you should know that it's not very nice ...in terms of all those "values" of which you pretend to hold so dear.

Baron Max
 
No Baron ye yet again fail to comprehend. Insanity isn't designated towards thoughts, thinking a thing no matter how bizarre isn't a crime nor a sign of insanity. To break it down in language you can understand 'crazy is what crazy does'. The courts only cares about thoughts in terms of intent.

Freedom and justice in no way undermines the value of calling a spade a spade whether you deem it nice or not.
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
Problem: Sanity is as subjective a concept as evil.

If Mr. Fish only fantasized about his illegal actions, harmed himself in private, and read stories to children at the library in his spare time, is he insane? Evil?
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Then he's mentally ill/insane.

If I am a serial killer, but only of pedophiles and violent criminals...
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No one deserves to be murdered.

If I enjoy playing with the intestines of road kill...
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Weird, implies a certain degree of battiness to me, probably don't wanna hang out with you, but not a big deal.

If I'm convinced my left foot is trying to escape to dominate the world with song...
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I get your point. Again, I would want to help someone with irrational thought if it was bothering them.

Are you sure your friends and loved ones aren't thinking these things? If not, and if they are, would you say they are insane? evil?
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Depends on which things and what they're acting on. I know my family and friends can be as crazy as anyone else. What's your point? Nothing profound in what you said. You didn't exactly show me fear in a handful of dust.
 
And mental health is not determined by thoughts alone. Its determined by action, if a thought gets in the way of functioning, disturbs peace of mind leading to depression etc. Merely thinking 'bad' thoughts is not a sign of mental imbalance. Look at how many people 'think' of killing. does it make them insane? No.
 
John99 said:
its a medical one first. law only comes into it if a crime is committed.
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I'll put your Everlasting Gobstopper in the post. That hardly makes Lucy's post incorrect. Insanity is very much determined by how we react to and deal with thoughts.
 
John99 said:
its a medical one first. law only comes into it if a crime is committed.
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John how does this make what I said wrong? Medically a normal functioning person can think what they want without being challenged by the medical society, same with the law you can think what you want it is action that is judged or examined not the 'thought'.
 
This was the question:

If Mr. Fish only fantasized about his illegal actions, harmed himself in private, and read stories to children at the library in his spare time, is he insane? Evil?

The answer to the question would be no. Why no? Because thinking something is not a criminal offense and is not a sign of insanity.
 
Not at all. If you're having a case of the deep down crazies and just go say, "Look, doc, I keep having this idea in my head that I'm pregnant by an alien. Now, this seems pretty batshit to me, but I'm pretty sure I am," you may be schizophrenic, but you're probably less so than when a friend of mine tried giving herself an abortion because she thought she was pregnant by aliens and she tearfully confided this. She committed no crime, but this helped get her committed.
 
S.A.M. said:
There is nothing wrong with a man committing untold atrocities to get what he wants, no matter how illogical it seems.

Its The American Way©.
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*Blinks big blue American eyes.*

Only if it's about money or power, SAM.
 
Not at all. Its like waterboarding. Its only a crime if someone else does it. Otherwise, its just the pursuit of truth, justice and liberty [aka happiness].

Similarly, the man is only considered insane because other people say he is. He makes perfect sense to his own mind. Kinda like Baron Max. :D
 
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