The Infidel Guy
- Thread starter Ellimist
- Start date
I could start this discussion somewhere else, but what does everyone think of these arguments against the existence of god?
http://www.infidelguy.com/library/index.php?title=Arguments_against_the_existence_of_God
http://www.infidelguy.com/library/index.php?title=Arguments_against_the_existence_of_God
Instead of just linking to Reggie's site (and maybe boosting your referral points 
), why not summarize some of the arguments? That way you might spark some interest. If I get a chance later, I'll summarize one or two and post a link to the source(s).
), why not summarize some of the arguments? That way you might spark some interest. If I get a chance later, I'll summarize one or two and post a link to the source(s).SkinWalker said:
Well... I could... but I just don't have time... when I get the time, I will return to do it... hell, it has taken me 5 days to get back here just to respond...
But...
"If God's existence could be logically proven or empirically demonstrated, faith in God's existence would become irrelevant. Therefore, if Christianity is true, it follows that no argument in favour of God's existence can be valid."
I love that.
from infidelguy.com
ON FREEWILL
1.) God has an unchangeable blueprint/plan of the Universe.
2.) Whatever begins to exist in the Universe is part of God`s unchanging plan.
3.) Human thoughts and actions begin to exist in the Universe.
4.) All human thoughts and actions are planned by God.
5.) Man has no Free-will.
ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN ANALOGY
1.) Watches exist. (One can substitute any man-made object here)
2.) We know watches are designed by humans, conscious beings.
3.) Since the watch has a conscious designer, the Universe must be designed by a conscious designer.
4.) We do not have any past experience, however, with any other Universes as we do with watches.
5.) Therefore, the watch designer analogy doesn’t provide evidence for the existence of God.
ON FAITH
1.) Faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.
2.) Faith is all that is required to accept a belief as true.
3.) All faiths are true.
ON PRAYER
1.) Humans can’t change God’s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer doesn’t change things.
ON LOVE
1.) God’s love is greater than man’s love.
2.) God’s love is greater than one can love oneself
3.) One who loves oneself wouldn’t want to be tortured for eternity.
4.) Hell cannot exist.
GOD’S LIMITATIONS
1.) God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it occurs.
2.) God can’t change the future because he is omnscient.
3.) God has no Free-will.
ON PROPHECY
1.) A Prophecy is a divine prediction of something.
2.) Something prophecized by God will happen no matter what man does to prevent it.
3.) Man has no freewill.
ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn’t believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.
ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God knows everything “before” it happens.
2.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden knowing that man would eat from it.
3.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
ON ABORTION
1.) God is the reason and cause for all biological processes.
2.) Spontaneous abortion is a biological process.
3.) Spontaneous abortions happen among millions of women everyday.
4.) God causes millions of abortions everyday.
ON JESUS
1.) God cannot die.
2.) Jesus was God in human form.
3.) Jesus can`t die.
4.) Jesus sacrificed nothing.
ON THE BODY OF CHRIST
1.) God’s flesh was known as Jesus.
2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven
3.) God is no longer Jesus.
4.) Jesus doesn’t exist.
Commentary: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem. However, if Jesus “is” God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God.
ON AGNOSTICISM - R. Finley & Dan Burke
1.) Agnostics, by definition, have no knowledge of the existence of any god(s).
2.) Theists claim knowledge of and belief in a god or gods.
3.) Agnostics cannot accept as true, something of which they have NO knowledge.
4.) The agnostic is without belief in god(s).
5.) Atheists are without belief in god(s).
6.) The agnostic is an atheist.
7.) Agnosticism is NOT a position between atheism and theism.
ON GOD’S ETERNAL WISDOM – Dan Burke
1.) God knows all things eternally.
2.) Eternity never ends.
3.) It will take an eternity to know eternity.
4.) God will never `be able` to `finish` knowing eternity.
5.) God is not all knowing, therefore not all powerful.
ON GOD’S COMPETENCE – Dan Burke
1.) God destroyed every living thing on the planet except for Noah, his family and two & seven of each `kind` of animal with a great flood.
2.) God did this because he was upset with how `wicked` the world had become and wanted to eliminate the wicked people.
3.) By killing off all the humans except Noah and his family, Noah`s family had to inbreed to re-populate the Earth.
4.) The animals were not `wicked`, but most were killed anyway.
5.) There are still wicked people today.
6.) God is incompetent.
ON COMPLEXITY - Davros
1.) The complexity of a tree, or a watch, implies an intelligent designer.
2.) God is complex.
3.) God was therefore created and must have an intelligent designer!
4.) The creator of God is even MORE complex
5.) He/she/it must therefore have a designer to ad infinitum.
ON THE GOODNESS OF GOD
1.) God is good all of the time.
2.) Everything that God creates is good.
2.) God created evil according to Isaiah 45:7.
4.) Evil is good.
ON GOD, CREATION & EVIL – Dan Burke
1.) According to the Bible, God created all things, including evil. (Isaiah 45:7)
2.) If Isaiah 45:7 is rejected, then the Bible is admittedly wrong and God is only the co-creator of all things.
3.) If Isaiah 45:7 is accepted, then God created evil and therefore *is* evil (therefore, not omni-benevolent).
4.) Either way, God is not God (as defined), and the claim is negated out of existence.
Commentary: Typically, God, as defined, includes the attributes of omnscience, omnibenevolence, omnipresence and omnipotence. If one of the primary attributes of a being is shown to not exist, the being with those alledged attributes ceases to exist. For example; if someone says a black lizard is in a box, but upon opening it a white lizard is there instead, the black lizard does not exist within the designated parameters given. Sure, the black lizard may have turned white. But that’s not what was said. So, sure the lizard may exist, but not a black one. In comparison, sure a god may exist, but not an omnibenevolent Yahweh.
ON QUESTIONING GOD/S
1.) Via the process of ‘interrogation’ we can learn whether something is true.
2.) Man’s ability to interrogate the divine is flawed.
3.) We can not know if the divine is true.
Commentary: This was in response to an email sent from someone that read over some of my questions and informed me that it was essentially useless to question God because my ability to rationalize or question “him” was flawed. My response, I believe, totally shows the utter futility in making such a claim. Some people would make the claim in response to this that there are some things you just know and do NOT need to ‘interrogate’ its actuality. My first thought is, how, do you know it? I will respond to this camp as follows.
ON KNOWLEDGE OF GOD
1.) I know god exists because I know it.
2.) Many people in thousands of other faiths make the same claim about their god/s.
3.) All of religion`s gods are true.
Commentary: Obviously we need more than just, “I know it because I know it.” Religious beliefs are mostly demographic. If a Christian were born in Afganistan, re* would more than likely be a Muslim. "I know it because I know it", doesn`t cut it.
ON CLAIMING UNIVERSAL MONOTHEISM
1.) All gods are the same god.
2.) The various gods practiced by differing faiths all have different or even conflicting views of what they want for mankind.
3.) God’s word is different for various groups of people.
4.) If there is only one God, no one can truly know what his word is absolutely.
Commentary: Obviously, this is very difficult for the dogmatic theist because their god concept is unchanging and has an absolute plan for man that doesn’t vacillate at a whim. But this is where this logically leads if all gods are the same god. One could also argue that all of the other religions have it wrong. I respond to that as well in the next series of premises.
ON WHICH RELIGION IS RIGHT
1.) The truth of a religion or spiritual belief is faith based
2.) Faith is belief without evidence.
3.) Evidence leads us to determine whether something is true.
3.) There is no evidence that a religious or spiritual belief is true
4.) To claim that a faith is true is illogical.
ON SIN & PERFECTION
1.) God is perfect and has free will.
2.) God created man perfect with free will.
3.) God's perfect nature disallows him to sin.
4.) Even though man was perfect sin still entered the world.
5.) Man could not have been made perfect.
ON SIN & PERFECTION: Part Two
1.) Man was not created perfect.
2.) God knew man would choose sin because man isn't perfect.
3.) God punishes predictable sinners with Hell.
4.) God is an unjust God.
Legend:
*re = a new term becoming more commonly used to address someone agenderly, mentioning a person in general.
Take these in, bask in their glow of logic, and enjoy. :-D
ON FREEWILL
1.) God has an unchangeable blueprint/plan of the Universe.
2.) Whatever begins to exist in the Universe is part of God`s unchanging plan.
3.) Human thoughts and actions begin to exist in the Universe.
4.) All human thoughts and actions are planned by God.
5.) Man has no Free-will.
ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN ANALOGY
1.) Watches exist. (One can substitute any man-made object here)
2.) We know watches are designed by humans, conscious beings.
3.) Since the watch has a conscious designer, the Universe must be designed by a conscious designer.
4.) We do not have any past experience, however, with any other Universes as we do with watches.
5.) Therefore, the watch designer analogy doesn’t provide evidence for the existence of God.
ON FAITH
1.) Faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.
2.) Faith is all that is required to accept a belief as true.
3.) All faiths are true.
ON PRAYER
1.) Humans can’t change God’s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer doesn’t change things.
ON LOVE
1.) God’s love is greater than man’s love.
2.) God’s love is greater than one can love oneself
3.) One who loves oneself wouldn’t want to be tortured for eternity.
4.) Hell cannot exist.
GOD’S LIMITATIONS
1.) God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it occurs.
2.) God can’t change the future because he is omnscient.
3.) God has no Free-will.
ON PROPHECY
1.) A Prophecy is a divine prediction of something.
2.) Something prophecized by God will happen no matter what man does to prevent it.
3.) Man has no freewill.
ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn’t believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.
ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God knows everything “before” it happens.
2.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden knowing that man would eat from it.
3.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
ON ABORTION
1.) God is the reason and cause for all biological processes.
2.) Spontaneous abortion is a biological process.
3.) Spontaneous abortions happen among millions of women everyday.
4.) God causes millions of abortions everyday.
ON JESUS
1.) God cannot die.
2.) Jesus was God in human form.
3.) Jesus can`t die.
4.) Jesus sacrificed nothing.
ON THE BODY OF CHRIST
1.) God’s flesh was known as Jesus.
2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven
3.) God is no longer Jesus.
4.) Jesus doesn’t exist.
Commentary: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem. However, if Jesus “is” God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God.
ON AGNOSTICISM - R. Finley & Dan Burke
1.) Agnostics, by definition, have no knowledge of the existence of any god(s).
2.) Theists claim knowledge of and belief in a god or gods.
3.) Agnostics cannot accept as true, something of which they have NO knowledge.
4.) The agnostic is without belief in god(s).
5.) Atheists are without belief in god(s).
6.) The agnostic is an atheist.
7.) Agnosticism is NOT a position between atheism and theism.
ON GOD’S ETERNAL WISDOM – Dan Burke
1.) God knows all things eternally.
2.) Eternity never ends.
3.) It will take an eternity to know eternity.
4.) God will never `be able` to `finish` knowing eternity.
5.) God is not all knowing, therefore not all powerful.
ON GOD’S COMPETENCE – Dan Burke
1.) God destroyed every living thing on the planet except for Noah, his family and two & seven of each `kind` of animal with a great flood.
2.) God did this because he was upset with how `wicked` the world had become and wanted to eliminate the wicked people.
3.) By killing off all the humans except Noah and his family, Noah`s family had to inbreed to re-populate the Earth.
4.) The animals were not `wicked`, but most were killed anyway.
5.) There are still wicked people today.
6.) God is incompetent.
ON COMPLEXITY - Davros
1.) The complexity of a tree, or a watch, implies an intelligent designer.
2.) God is complex.
3.) God was therefore created and must have an intelligent designer!
4.) The creator of God is even MORE complex
5.) He/she/it must therefore have a designer to ad infinitum.
ON THE GOODNESS OF GOD
1.) God is good all of the time.
2.) Everything that God creates is good.
2.) God created evil according to Isaiah 45:7.
4.) Evil is good.
ON GOD, CREATION & EVIL – Dan Burke
1.) According to the Bible, God created all things, including evil. (Isaiah 45:7)
2.) If Isaiah 45:7 is rejected, then the Bible is admittedly wrong and God is only the co-creator of all things.
3.) If Isaiah 45:7 is accepted, then God created evil and therefore *is* evil (therefore, not omni-benevolent).
4.) Either way, God is not God (as defined), and the claim is negated out of existence.
Commentary: Typically, God, as defined, includes the attributes of omnscience, omnibenevolence, omnipresence and omnipotence. If one of the primary attributes of a being is shown to not exist, the being with those alledged attributes ceases to exist. For example; if someone says a black lizard is in a box, but upon opening it a white lizard is there instead, the black lizard does not exist within the designated parameters given. Sure, the black lizard may have turned white. But that’s not what was said. So, sure the lizard may exist, but not a black one. In comparison, sure a god may exist, but not an omnibenevolent Yahweh.
ON QUESTIONING GOD/S
1.) Via the process of ‘interrogation’ we can learn whether something is true.
2.) Man’s ability to interrogate the divine is flawed.
3.) We can not know if the divine is true.
Commentary: This was in response to an email sent from someone that read over some of my questions and informed me that it was essentially useless to question God because my ability to rationalize or question “him” was flawed. My response, I believe, totally shows the utter futility in making such a claim. Some people would make the claim in response to this that there are some things you just know and do NOT need to ‘interrogate’ its actuality. My first thought is, how, do you know it? I will respond to this camp as follows.
ON KNOWLEDGE OF GOD
1.) I know god exists because I know it.
2.) Many people in thousands of other faiths make the same claim about their god/s.
3.) All of religion`s gods are true.
Commentary: Obviously we need more than just, “I know it because I know it.” Religious beliefs are mostly demographic. If a Christian were born in Afganistan, re* would more than likely be a Muslim. "I know it because I know it", doesn`t cut it.
ON CLAIMING UNIVERSAL MONOTHEISM
1.) All gods are the same god.
2.) The various gods practiced by differing faiths all have different or even conflicting views of what they want for mankind.
3.) God’s word is different for various groups of people.
4.) If there is only one God, no one can truly know what his word is absolutely.
Commentary: Obviously, this is very difficult for the dogmatic theist because their god concept is unchanging and has an absolute plan for man that doesn’t vacillate at a whim. But this is where this logically leads if all gods are the same god. One could also argue that all of the other religions have it wrong. I respond to that as well in the next series of premises.
ON WHICH RELIGION IS RIGHT
1.) The truth of a religion or spiritual belief is faith based
2.) Faith is belief without evidence.
3.) Evidence leads us to determine whether something is true.
3.) There is no evidence that a religious or spiritual belief is true
4.) To claim that a faith is true is illogical.
ON SIN & PERFECTION
1.) God is perfect and has free will.
2.) God created man perfect with free will.
3.) God's perfect nature disallows him to sin.
4.) Even though man was perfect sin still entered the world.
5.) Man could not have been made perfect.
ON SIN & PERFECTION: Part Two
1.) Man was not created perfect.
2.) God knew man would choose sin because man isn't perfect.
3.) God punishes predictable sinners with Hell.
4.) God is an unjust God.
Legend:
*re = a new term becoming more commonly used to address someone agenderly, mentioning a person in general.
Take these in, bask in their glow of logic, and enjoy. :-D
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
It is only a shame that they do not quite believe in freedom of speech on his site. There, the atheists like to win their arguments... the atheists pay the bills. So as soon as a theist gets even a smidge of a following there, it is decided they are not paying to present a theist message, and they clamp down a ban. So what you are getting there is an unfair representation of things -- Apologists for Atheism up against opponents who are allowed to argue as long as they don't present a compelling or popular argument. It is like a Retreat for Atheists where they can go to be sheltered and can thus be free to fantasize that their own arguments are superior.
There is no point me going through some kind of anlysis of that dude's thoughts. i saw some of them and very quickly knew them through familiarity...tediously so
he premises a 'God'.....and also a mechanistic universe, and wonders from THERE....
even non-mecahanistic science dont think universe is designed as in from 'outer'
if there were one point i would really wanna get across it is the investigating the PREMIS of a 'God'.....the idea of us being puppets controlled by this superdude.....ubermensch
this is big-man makin big-god more like, in his own idealized image. no mention of Nature no where, no tails, no animal connections, plant connections, and so on. just suuuupermannnnn
what has happened is that we have all been duped. duped to accept empty 'faith'. believe it or not, anciently spiritual experience didn't demand blind faith, in words words words, but understood DIRECt spiritual experience with the aid of halluinogenic sacraments......With such there is no doubt. one dpesn't NEEd 'faith' in such ecstasy, the experience Is experience. the meaning IS meaning
people -in my experience manifest taboo-like behaviour when this is mentioned that manifests in different reactions, from total silence to hostility to ridicule. this doesn't depotentiate the
hint......
he premises a 'God'.....and also a mechanistic universe, and wonders from THERE....
even non-mecahanistic science dont think universe is designed as in from 'outer'
if there were one point i would really wanna get across it is the investigating the PREMIS of a 'God'.....the idea of us being puppets controlled by this superdude.....ubermensch
this is big-man makin big-god more like, in his own idealized image. no mention of Nature no where, no tails, no animal connections, plant connections, and so on. just suuuupermannnnn
what has happened is that we have all been duped. duped to accept empty 'faith'. believe it or not, anciently spiritual experience didn't demand blind faith, in words words words, but understood DIRECt spiritual experience with the aid of halluinogenic sacraments......With such there is no doubt. one dpesn't NEEd 'faith' in such ecstasy, the experience Is experience. the meaning IS meaning
people -in my experience manifest taboo-like behaviour when this is mentioned that manifests in different reactions, from total silence to hostility to ridicule. this doesn't depotentiate the
hint......
they want a debate unlike you whos only intereseted in proselityzing and triping on your weird dreams.Leo Volont said:
have you ever met anyone who likes to lose?
..besides not like you or any theist actualy stands a chance in the face of logic..
do you actualy have any good arguments???
try www.infidels.org/index.html
btw atheism is not a religion,no need to Capitalize it.
Leo Volont said:
Perhaps you can offer a link to one of these threads so we can see the "unfairness" for ourselves?
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
SkinWalker said:
You can't point to any unfairness, because they don't keep unfairness around... they simply ban theists who kick their ass. What survives is an illusion of Fairness. It is much like America today: after having had assassinated all of the Popular Liberal Politicians, the Right Wing congratulates itself that they have won all of the subsequent political elections "fair and square".
So what you have with The Infidel Guy is a little On Line Private Country Club where everyone is quite enforced to either agree, or to disagree manageably and stupidly, to make the Members seem more Olympian in contrast.
If you still have access to his Site, then ask to see the membership files and records. I'm sure you will find at least as many people who are banned from their Site as are admitted to it. It will become clear that the only strategy he has for winning is to hand pick for their ineptitude those he is willing to argue against.
Leo Volont - I am not quite sure what you are talking about in regard to the politics of forums and banning... but nothing you have said comes even remotely close to arguing any of those logical arguments I posted.
If the arguments are not "superior" or whatever, why don't you go ahead and refute some of them? There is no all or nothing in this thread... Just take a stab at one or two or three of them.
If the arguments are not "superior" or whatever, why don't you go ahead and refute some of them? There is no all or nothing in this thread... Just take a stab at one or two or three of them.
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
Ellimist said:
What logical points you have posted?
The part that I read was that you thought The Infidel Guy offered a good Web Site, and I replied that it is not a good website if you get booted off of it as soon as you make the Infidel Guy feel vulnerable and insecure. You've done nothing to answer that one.
But if you subsequently began to talk about some other 'logical points'... well, is there any particular one you would have me comment on? Pick your best. I don't like lists.
Leo Volont said:
You're one of those people that argues for the sake of arguing, aren't you?
I have no answer because I don't care. I have heard nothing about that except for what you have just said.
discuss these:
ON ABORTION
1.) God is the reason and cause for all biological processes.
2.) Spontaneous abortion is a biological process.
3.) Spontaneous abortions happen among millions of women everyday.
4.) God causes millions of abortions everyday.
ON FAITH
1.) Faith is the evidence of things not seen, the substance of things hoped for.
2.) Faith is all that is required to accept a belief as true.
3.) All faiths are true.
ARGUMENT FROM DESIGN ANALOGY
1.) Watches exist. (One can substitute any man-made object here)
2.) We know watches are designed by humans, conscious beings.
3.) Since the watch has a conscious designer, the Universe must be designed by a conscious designer.
4.) We do not have any past experience, however, with any other Universes as we do with watches.
5.) Therefore, the watch designer analogy doesn’t provide evidence for the existence of God.
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
Ellimist said:
You don't listen, do you?
I told you I do not do lists.
If you can't find one thing that is important to you, then none of it is important to me either.
Leo Volont said:
I don't post there very often (almost never), but I've been lurking there off and on for a couple of years. The only people I've seen get banned from there were those that were assnuggets and broke various rules after being warned on several occasions.
I've never noticed a thread "disappear," this is doubtless your personal belief that they just sweep the theist crap under the rug because they can't keep up with the arguments. The fact of the matter is, theists can really offer no valid, logical argument(s) to support their superstitions and such action would be unnecessary.
By your disgruntled demeanor, I'd say you were banned. Were you an assnugget?
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
SkinWalker said:
Well, yes, I would suppose that they would hate you first before they would ban you. I did not say they were banning people whom they were enamoured with. Using insulting terms is simply an expression of the hatred that goes before a banning. So, yes, I would guess that these Atheists would develop little pet name insults for those whom they would victimize -- it is all part and parcel of Dehumanizing People before they are attacked, no?
Look at your own behavior. You call me insulting names because that makes it easier for you to disregard anything I have to say. You find it easier than thinking.
Oh, and talking about rules... your little insult to me would be smiled at on the Infidel Guy Site, but let a Theist use just a slight hint of the same quality of language in referring to one of the priveleged Atheists, and that is a Banning Offense. There are different rules depending on whose side you are on. Not quite level, is it?
leovolont said:
Actually, I only asked a yes or no question. If you inferred that I called you a name, wouldn't that say more about you than me?
Hint: that was another "yes or no" question.
Last edited:
Leo Volont said:
You said you do not like lists. You can do things without liking them.
importance is irrelevant. truth is relevant. logic is relevant.
ON ABORTION
1.) God is the reason and cause for all biological processes.
2.) Spontaneous abortion is a biological process.
3.) Spontaneous abortions happen among millions of women everyday.
4.) God causes millions of abortions everyday.
is this correct? and why?
Leo Volont said:
It seems only intuitive. If one visits the christianforums (dot com), you'll note that there is an entire section of the board that is off limits to anyone but christians. They don't even allow christians to question certain "accepted truths" with penalty of ban. Indeed, bans are issued to any non-christian anywhere on the board who overly questions the existance of god or the validity of the various superstitions of christianity.
I used to lurk there as "BrotherWalker," but haven't been by in while. All very fascinating stuff to a budding anthropologist. Kind of like Gorillas in the Mist.
I still maintain it wasn't an insult... only a question
Besides... I looked over at infidel guy's site... you're apparently in good standing there. In fact, the last 40 or so posts you made went largely ignored except for the fascinating details you offered about Buddhism. Good stuff... too bad you don't act that nice over here.