The immorality of the Christian God

Ü

Übergänger

Registered Member
Not sure if this has been posted a million times before though, but I deem it an extremely important argument, and to me it basically destroy's christianity from it's foundations.

If Hell, a place of eternal punishment, exists, God is unjust, period.

Anyone with a sane brain and a firm grasp of the ideas of justice, love, morality and the infinite will agree with me on the fact that no offense can warrant ETERNAL punishment.
Not serial killers nor child molesters nor traitors of their land can deserve NEVER ENDING punishment for an earthly, temporal and finite offense.

If hell exists and therefore God is obviously infinitely unjust, I can't see any reason to worship or follow him, I'd rather be a rebel, if anything.
 
Christians believe that no matter how great of a person you are, you go to hell unless you believe in trinity. "Believe" is the key word. That's even more absurd.

Oh Wait. We are not God so we can't understand God. Nevermind.
 
Joeman said:
Christians believe that no matter how great of a person you are, you go to hell unless you believe in trinity. "Believe" is the key word. That's even more absurd.

Oh Wait. We are not God so we can't understand God. Nevermind.
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Yes, and sending a good person to hell for being an atheist is even more outrageously unjust than sending anyone else to hell. It's just so deranged that I can't believe anyone can accept it. I just refuse to accept that; hidden reasons of God, big picture that God can see but not me, all that is nonsense, I judge it as unjust, and nothing but a pint of ethics is required to see that we can't accept that NO MATTER WHAT.
 
Anyone with a sane brain and a firm grasp of the ideas of justice, love, morality and the infinite will agree with me on the fact that no offense can warrant ETERNAL punishment.
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Hell is eternal bashishment "away" from God. Once someone rejects all of God's graces, including mercy, they have no way to reunite themselves with God.
 
okinrus said:
Hell is eternal bashishment "away" from God. Once someone rejects all of God's graces, including mercy, they have no way to reunite themselves with God.
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That is evil and nothing else, for if he was infinitely good he would give souls in hell an oportunity for redemption, to be able to reunite themselves with God.
 
Übergänger said:
Not sure if this has been posted a million times before though, but I deem it an extremely important argument, and to me it basically destroy's christianity from it's foundations.

If Hell, a place of eternal punishment, exists, God is unjust, period.

Anyone with a sane brain and a firm grasp of the ideas of justice, love, morality and the infinite will agree with me on the fact that no offense can warrant ETERNAL punishment.
Not serial killers nor child molesters nor traitors of their land can deserve NEVER ENDING punishment for an earthly, temporal and finite offense.

If hell exists and therefore God is obviously infinitely unjust, I can't see any reason to worship or follow him, I'd rather be a rebel, if anything.
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M*W: Welcome, Ubi, you surely have come to the right place for a rebel! I'm a rebel, too, and I agree with your beliefs. I think there's gotta be almost 100% confusion about who or what our wise and just creator is. A loving creator loves his creation and nurtures it and creates a masterpiece of it. An unjust creator puts hurdles and obstacles in his creation's way. This creator breeds confusion and doubt that corrupts the very soul of humans. I believe this creator is to be avoided at all costs. A loving creator wouldn't want to destroy his creation. Like you, I believe Christianity will be totally destroyed, and it's on its way to that destruction now with 75% of the world's population disbelieving everything Christian.

I used to be a Catholic, and a devout one at that! Then the truth was revealed to me that Jesus and Christianity didn't co-exist nor be inclusive of one another.

I hope to read many more of your posts. Again, welcome to a place where you can be a rebel with a cause!
 
okinrus said:
Hell is eternal bashishment "away" from God. Once someone rejects all of God's graces, including mercy, they have no way to reunite themselves with God.
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M*W: You mean saying three Our Fathers and ten Hail Marys won't remove their sins anymore? What is Roman Catholicism coming to?
 
Medicine Woman said:
*************
M*W: Welcome, Ubi, you surely have come to the right place for a rebel! I'm a rebel, too, and I agree with your beliefs. I think there's gotta be almost 100% confusion about who or what our wise and just creator is. A loving creator loves his creation and nurtures it and creates a masterpiece of it. An unjust creator puts hurdles and obstacles in his creation's way. This creator breeds confusion and doubt that corrupts the very soul of humans. I believe this creator is to be avoided at all costs. A loving creator wouldn't want to destroy his creation. Like you, I believe Christianity will be totally destroyed, and it's on its way to that destruction now with 75% of the world's population disbelieving everything Christian.

I used to be a Catholic, and a devout one at that! Then the truth was revealed to me that Jesus and Christianity didn't co-exist nor be inclusive of one another.

I hope to read many more of your posts. Again, welcome to a place where you can be a rebel with a cause!
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Thanks for the warm welcome, and I certainly agree as well, that if there is a God, he resembles very little or in no way a God such as the one that christians believe in.
If we ever know God, I'm confident that the Christian God will seem a joke, a travesty and a cheap interpretation of Him.
 
M*W: You mean saying three Our Fathers and ten Hail Marys won't remove their sins anymore? What is Roman Catholicism coming to?
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Someone who is forgivened does penance to make up for the fault. This making up for the fault is done by someone who is already been forgivened.
 
i always heard god described as jealous and wrothful. and i don't know that no offense can warrant eternal punishment. :p
 
Just to be fair though, not all Christian denominations believe narrow minded biblical interpretations. There are many many types of Christians and a whole spectrum of different Christians. Liberal Christians have totally different beliefs than the fundies and are generally more educated and more intelligent. Left thinking Christians generally have very disparaging thoughts about right thinking fundies.

I recently went to an Methodist church and a Church of Christ church. Suprisingly, ALL clergies there I have talked to DON'T believe the following:

Adam and Eve story.
Jesus is the son of God or second Trinity.
Jesus's primary mission is to die for the sin of the world.
Jesus's message is all about himself - his own identity as Son of God, the saving purpose of his death, and the importance of believing in him.
Christianity is the only way.
God has revealed all, and everything Christians know is 100% truth and other religions lack truth.
Homosexuality is sin.
You have to believe in God to get to heaven.

They all believe in the following: (At least those I talked to)

God exists and is moral and just.
Roman Empire had strong effect on Christianity. We're not sure how much and how.
You don't need salvation - although you will be judged by God.
The mission of Jesus is to change the world toward the better.
God reaches different cultures different ways as interpreted within their own culture. For example, someone hypothesized that Jesus is the Eastern equivalence of Budha.
The validity of the story in Da Vinci code is inconclusive. At least they all have read it. Right wing fundies wouldn't even read it and say it's full of crap.

Just to be fair, not all Christian denominations are narrow minded and bigotted. Just most of them.
 
Given that this thread is about Christianity, I thought that perhaps a Christian viewpoint would be welcomed. And since Joeman has taken the important step of highlighting the importance of denomination and Church in a Christian’s viewpoint, I’ll identify my self as a non-denominational Christian (I believe that faith and religion are two different things - I have a problem with humans adding structure to God’s kingdom, which is a whole other thread.)

This is the way I understand it -

- God, who is perfect and omnipotent, exists in Heaven
- Lucifer, who was prideful by not acknowledging God’s superiority, is going to Hell, which is considered eternal punishment because God does not exist there.
- Humans were created in the image of God, in that they have a will.
- Humans are imperfect, and therefore cannot enter Heaven.
- Because God wants His creations (that’s us!) with Him in Heaven, He sent a part of Himself to Earth (I think that Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man because to God, isn’t being born of a human far more interesting?) in the form of Jesus to die and go to Hell in place of whomever accepts this forgiveness.
- Ergo, whomever accepts the forgiveness of God is made perfect and can therefore enter Heaven to be with God.
- Similarly, whomever does not accept this forgiveness is imperfect and can therefore not be with God.
- Thus, God is just in that He gives to us what is due (being imperfect, that means being away from Him) but at the same time is merciful in that He offers us forgiveness.

There you go Übergänger, that’s how I understand it. By the way, Medicine Woman, I can understand where you are coming from - I was once Catholic too. However, I saw a descrepancy between what the Bible and the Church teach.

Anyway, cheers.
 
Hell, which is considered eternal punishment because God does not exist there.
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interesting. this would seem to negate the immorality of "eternal punishment" for atheists. as to us, god doesn't exist in this plane either. :p

and this brings about another interesting question; is separation from god the only punishment in hell? because this would indicate to me that an atheist can do whatever he/she wants in this world without fear of repercussions in the afterlife [aside from sitting in hell for eternity]. excuse me, i have to go "sin boldly." :D :D
 
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I don’t follow, antifreeze. But I suppose more detail on the nature of Heaven vs. Hell might help:

- The best description of Heaven is one that I read from CS Lewis (excellent author. In his book, Mere Christianity, he details how he reasons that God exists, as he once was an atheist), who says that being reunited with God in Heaven is like reuniting with a part on one’s self that one has been searching for one’s whole life (after all, we’re doing something on this ball of rock). A sea man could compaire God to the feeling he gets when he’s sailing, or a composer to the feeling he’s getting when he’s composing.

- Because the inhabitants of hell (if one wants to make these places) are apart from God, their eternal punishment is spending eternity not knowing what they have been looking for.

Cheers
 
their eternal punishment is spending eternity not knowing what they have been looking for.
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but my question is, how is this search any different from an atheist's current life?
 
Jesus is the Eastern equivalence of Budha.
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You mean the western equivalent.
This is the way I understand it -

- God, who is perfect and omnipotent, exists in Heaven
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According to the bible he's supposed to be everywhere (but not in temple's built by human hands). Also, omnipotence is impossible, and such an attribute given to God makes him impossible, thus if God exists he cannot be omnipotent.


And, on topic, there are hundreds of attrocities in the bible commited by God and in the name of God. How's that for immoral?
 
Alpha said:
You mean the western equivalent.
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The universal equivalent. :rolleyes:

According to the bible he's supposed to be everywhere (but not in temple's built by human hands). Also, omnipotence is impossible, and such an attribute given to God makes him impossible, thus if God exists he cannot be omnipotent.


And, on topic, there are hundreds of attrocities in the bible commited by God and in the name of God. How's that for immoral?
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What "atrocities" might these be? Dying for the sins of the world?
 
Yes, and sending a good person to hell for being an atheist is even more outrageously unjust than sending anyone else to hell
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In God's eyes, it is impossible for an atheist to be good.

That is evil and nothing else, for if he was infinitely good he would give souls in hell an oportunity for redemption, to be able to reunite themselves with God.
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You can choose your choice, but you cannot choose your consequinse

interesting. this would seem to negate the immorality of "eternal punishment" for atheists. as to us, god doesn't exist in this plane either.
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Just because you close your eyes doesn't mean that something has ceased to exist.
 
Enigma,

In God's eyes, it is impossible for an atheist to be good.
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In my eyes an atheist can clearly be a good person, and if this hypothetical God doesn't see that, I declare him either stupid or evil, or both.

You can choose your choice, but you cannot choose your consequinse
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Please explain this, and how is it related to "That is evil and nothing else, for if he was infinitely good he would give souls in hell an oportunity for redemption, to be able to reunite themselves with God."

"Just because you close your eyes doesn't mean that something has ceased to exist."
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True, but irrelevant. Suppose that the universe didn't have any conscious beings such as us, would the universe still exist?, yes, but it wouldn't matter (for things only matter or are important to someone, and if there is no one it can't matter), for all intents and purposes a universe not conscious of itself or devoid of conscious beings is an inexistent universe.
Hence if God exists but never manifests himself, he is as good as non existent.
I know what you will tell me, that God has already manifested himself countless times. I deny this, I deny that His "manifestation" has been explicit enough, so I declare him inexistent until proven otherwise.
If christianity is true, God has willingly chosen to refrain himself from manifesting to us through the only pathways that we have access to, namely our senses and our reason.
If he has indeed chosen that, I condemn him for putting up an impossible and unfair challenge for us.
I condemn him for putting up "evidence of His existence" that only stupid people would accept, but that intelligent ones would never accept. That's discrimination, he leaves people like Albert Einstein outside because he was simply too bright to believe in something so banal and stupid as Christianity.
And in that way He is cheapening, degrading and mocking the main thing that makes us human, Reason.
 
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