The illusion of free will

[NMSquirrel]

I know what I stated. How is retelling me in any way addressing the issue?
How does it prove what you claim? You don't like me arguing with you? You don't like having your arguments shown up for what I think they are?

you don't always attack his arguments, you tend to throw in your opinion as to who you think he is also.
whats that line? genius/insanity/fine line..

not saying anyone here is a genius, but it would do you honor to eliminate the 'who you think he is' from your posts.

 

[Sarkus]

Please clarify ? Item #1

Is the product of the imagination determined by the laws of physics or not?
or do you not understand the question somehow?

Then I will say that I think it is wholly the result of the laws of physics (and biology, chemistry etc - i.e. the laws of the universe). If you think it insufficient to say that then you'll have to define what you mean by "determined", as I do not think you fully grasp what it means in a philosophical context. Do that and then I will provide any further clarification.
Because I do understand the question, but I do not think you do, and I wouldn't want to give you a "yes/no" response that you take incorrectly due to misunderstanding your own question.

 

[Sarkus]

you don't always attack his arguments, you tend to throw in your opinion as to who you think he is also.
whats that line? genius/insanity/fine line..

not saying anyone here is a genius, but it would do you honor to eliminate the 'who you think he is' from your posts.

I do attack his arguments. But I admit I do comment on what I think they say of him, true. But don't confuse that for attacking him as a counter against his arguments... I treat his arguments on whatever merit I can find within them.
And please don't go anywhere near that line... 'cos QQ certainly doesn't.

 

[Sarkus]

The problem is, Sarkus, you are envious of not having the "imagination" to deal with this issue "freewill is an illusion", adequately.
You have contributed almost nothing to solving this historically intractable issue.
So you resort to constant obfuscation, diversions, and hostility disguised as genuine discourse.
Your use of insult is spectacular I must admit. However it is your only way of avoiding admitting to yourself a few salient truths about your apparent intellectual competence and how easy it is for a rather brilliant mind to become so distorted with envy and a heart so filled with hatred you probably spit green bile as you respond to my posts!

Oh, this is priceless, QQ. Seriously.
But maybe you're right in that I should just put you on ignore (either actually or metaphorically) the way almost everyone else does that can't be bothered to deal with your inanity. But whereas most ignore you outright, I have tried to show you what I see as the errors in your thinking. But instead of addressing those criticisms you just repeat, repeat, repeat, like last night's chili.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Then I will say that I think it is wholly the result of the laws of physics (and biology, chemistry etc - i.e. the laws of the universe). If you think it insufficient to say that then you'll have to define what you mean by "determined", as I do not think you fully grasp what it means in a philosophical context. Do that and then I will provide any further clarification.
Because I do understand the question, but I do not think you do, and I wouldn't want to give you a "yes/no" response that you take incorrectly due to misunderstanding your own question.

so you are saying quite clearly that the product of the imagination is determined by the laws of physics?
that creative product such as "Super man" , "pigs that fly", "pink elephants" and "unicorns" are somehow determined by the laws of physics ?

So what is the color blue?
is it red to you?
Is it green?
Or is it yellow?
or is the color blue
unable to be seen by you?

Accordingly your opinion is worthless.

So how is considering the Centre of Gravity as a zero point, a point you consider to be "nothing", and you have previously stated "nothing" to exist, and having that CoG creating an effect, not the same as stating that "nothing" has causal efficacy.

You are claiming that it has causal efficacy not me yet you accuse me of doing so..
I am not to blame for your ineptitude... only you have responsibility for that. If you wish to extend the logic, at least take responsibility for that extension and don't blame me for your errors.

The center of gravity can only be determined by it's effect... [is what I am postulating]
Again you have claimed something falsely and again reinforced in my mind that your opinion is worthless.

How many time do you need to be caught blatantly and deliberately lying before the moderators ban you?

 

[Quantum Quack]

@Sarkus

I'll repeat it seeing as you enjoyed it so much the first time:

Oh, this is priceless, QQ.

The problem is, Sarkus, you are envious of not having the "imagination" to deal with this issue "freewill is an illusion", adequately.
You have contributed almost nothing to solving this historically intractable issue.
So you resort to constant obfuscation, diversions, and hostility disguised as genuine discourse.
Your use of insult is spectacular I must admit. However it is your only way of avoiding admitting to yourself a few salient truths about your apparent intellectual competence and how easy it is for a rather brilliant mind to become so distorted with envy and a heart so filled with hatred you probably spit green bile as you respond to my posts!

Your opinion becomes and is worthless because of it...

 

[Quantum Quack]

The criteria that for freewill to be real it must defy the laws of physics has been refuted.
The product of the imagination is NOT determined by the laws of physics.
The imagination does not need to defy the laws of physics but renders them irrelevant as per choice.

There is no need for me to bring in other more complex arguments than the above...

Choices and decisions etc are made with the use of the imagination. A total fiction until "published" into action.

Thus freewill is actual and real and in no way an illusion. [ as defined in this thread ]

 

[Quantum Quack]

that's been the prob all along, what makes sense to you, doesn't necessarily make sense to others.
just because we can think of a thing does not mean we can communicate what that thing is.

So very true, as one endeavors to find common ground to express from. Having a hostile and negatively motivated audience is not easy to deal with either.
Having your posts deliberately distorted and consistently misquoted doesn't help either. [re Sarkus]

who's time??
time is time..
and the way you phrased it, includes all.

if referring to t=0 yes.

But in this case I am referring to the temporal person doing the imagining using an internal "fictional" time of his choosing.
[Example: Doctor Who and the Tardis, product. "The time machine" by H.G Wells. etc]

are you saying an object at absolute rest does not exist?

In this universe, according to the well accepted laws of physics, absolute rest is only (non)achieved at t=0 duration, so therefore any object, including imaginary, at absolute rest is non-existent. [in this 3 dimensional universe or 4 dimensional if one includes time >0]
Support:
If a photon stops moving it ceases to exist as a value.


Therefore:

x+(-)x + (t=0 duration)= nihilo, is a valid analogy of absolute thermodynamic equilibrium.

 

[NMSquirrel]

But in this case I am referring to the temporal person doing the imagining using an internal "fictional" time of his choosing.
[Example: Doctor Who and the Tardis, product. "The time machine" by H.G Wells. etc]

I want one.

In this universe, according to the well accepted laws of physics, absolute rest is only (non)achieved at t=0 duration, so therefore any object, including imaginary, at absolute rest is non-existent. [in this 3 dimensional universe or 4 dimensional if one includes time >0]
Support:
If a photon stops moving it ceases to exist as a value, imaginary or otherwise.

so mass and volume just disappear when an object is at absolute rest?

 

[Quantum Quack]

I want one.

me too!
Imagines Cher in her underwear singing "If I could turn back time"

so mass and volume just disappear when an object is at absolute rest?

yep, but do realize that absolute rest for anything of value is not possible in this universe if t= >0
Edit: Please note I edited the post you have quoted to avoid confusion - "imaginary and otherwise " have been deleted.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Imagine (in contradiction to the laws of physics ) :
You take all the mass and everything of value in the universe as a whole and delete it.
What would you have left over?
How big would the universe be?

 

[Sarkus]

so you are saying quite clearly that the product of the imagination is determined by the laws of physics?
that creative product such as "Super man" , "pigs that fly", "pink elephants" and "unicorns" are somehow determined by the laws of physics ?

Yes. They are concepts, and those concepts are merely extrapolations of what we observe, what we see.
We see birds fly, and we see humans... so why not imagine a human that flies?
What you are clearly confusing, as you have previously done, is the concept and that concept made real.
In what way is our imagination defying the laws of physics?
How does it go against the laws of physics to conceptualise that which does not exist in reality?

So what is the color blue?
is it red to you?
Is it green?
Or is it yellow?
or is the color blue
unable to be seen by you?

The colour blue is EM radiation with a wavelength of c.475nm. How I perceive it is possibly unique to me, it is not something I can tell. But what I perceive it as I have labelled "blue". The same way as you have labelled whatever you perceive it as as "blue".

Accordingly your opinion is worthless.

Why? Because I can answer your question, albeit in a manner that probably doesn't suit your agenda?

You are claiming that it has causal efficacy not me yet you accuse me of doing so..
I am not to blame for your ineptitude... only you have responsibility for that. If you wish to extend the logic, at least take responsibility for that extension and don't blame me for your errors.

I have shown precisely how I reached that conclusion, using your own claims in a logical manner.

The center of gravity can only be determined by it's effect... [is what I am postulating]

And if it effects something then, BY DEFINITION, it is a cause. To effect something is synonymous with being a cause!

Again you have claimed something falsely and again reinforced in my mind that your opinion is worthless.

And you have shown again that you are incapable of understanding the terms you use.

How many time do you need to be caught blatantly and deliberately lying before the moderators ban you?

If that is what you think I am doing, report me. I have provided links when you have required it (albeit merely posting the post number and what I consider the pertinent comment, rather than whole mess). I have detailed how I have reached the conclusion I have.
All you have done is cry foul, like an Italian footballer tripping over a daisy on the pitch and flinging himself to the ground clutching his shin!

 

[Sarkus]

The criteria that for freewill to be real it must defy the laws of physics has been refuted.

Where? Just post one link to where it has been refuted, where the supposed refutation has not been shown to be false.
Please... just one.

The product of the imagination is NOT determined by the laws of physics.

Another unsupported claim.

The imagination does not need to defy the laws of physics but renders them irrelevant as per choice.

Renders what "irrelevant as per choice"? Your sentence needs explanation.

There is no need for me to bring in other more complex arguments than the above...

There are no arguments above. Just unsupported claims.

Choices and decisions etc are made with the use of the imagination. A total fiction until "published" into action.

"Fiction" does not equate to "defying the laws of physics". Again, what is it precisely that you think defies the laws of physics? What is it in the act of imagination that requires physics to stop working as it does everywhere else in the universe? A mere unsupported claim will not cut it.

Thus freewill is actual and real and in no way an illusion. [ as defined in this thread ]

And again you go from unsupported claim to conclusion.

 

[Quantum Quack]

The center of gravity can only be determined by it's effect... [is what I am postulating]

And if it effects something then, BY DEFINITION, it is a cause. To effect something is synonymous with being a cause!

according to you. Not me.

How can nothing be a cause?
Yet it certainly can have an effect..
An empty/vacant chair doesn't cause you to sit down on it now does it...?
A space of vacuum doesn't cause pressure to move into it, now does it?
Is vacuum a cause?

 

[Quantum Quack]

@Sarkus,
Another case of selective quoting and then deliberate distortion, the post you are refering to:

The criteria that for freewill to be real it must defy the laws of physics has been refuted.
The product of the imagination is NOT determined by the laws of physics.
The imagination does not need to defy the laws of physics but renders them irrelevant as per choice.

Note the bit about how the imagination does not need to defy the laws of physics...but renders them irrelevant as per choice.
Why did you miss that bit... is it because it invalidates your position perhaps...?


Why did you lie about what I posted?

 

[Quantum Quack]

@ SArkus,
I'll re-post the same so you can have another go at wriggling out of it's ramifications:

1. The criteria that for freewill to be real it must defy the laws of physics has been refuted.
2. The product of the imagination is NOT determined by the laws of physics.
3. The imagination does not need to defy the laws of physics but renders them irrelevant as per choice.
4. There is no need for me to bring in other more complex arguments than the above...
5. Choices and decisions etc are made with the use of the imagination. A total fiction until "published" into action.
6. Thus freewill is actual and real and in no way an illusion. [ as defined in this thread ]

let's see what you come up with this time.
Take it one line at a time if you like.... [Oh I do realize that it is far from perfect but certainly sufficient for it's purpose]

 

[NMSquirrel]

me too!
Imagines Cher in her underwear singing "If I could turn back time"

too tall for me, (although I like the idea of my head being the same level as her boobs..
first thing I would do is go back with a video cam and watch jesus.
then I would gather as many 'how to' books as I can find, and find a nice place to live and make money, pry the beginning of the industrial area, when the west was still the west.

yep, but do realize that absolute rest for anything of value is not possible in this universe if t= >0
Edit: Please note I edited the post you have quoted to avoid confusion - "imaginary and otherwise " have been deleted.

so how would mass and volume disappear?
just because we cant measure it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Sarkus]

@Sarkus,
Another case of selective quoting and then deliberate distortion, the post you are refering to:

How is it selective quoting when I have quoted everything from that post? Refer to post #913.

Note the bit about how the imagination does not need to defy the laws of physics...but renders them irrelevant as per choice.
Why did you miss that bit... is it because it invalidates your position perhaps...?

Perhaps you will note post #913 and see that I did not miss it. In fact I clearly said that this particular line needs further explanation on your part.

Why did you lie about what I posted?

I didn't lie - I actually quoted it line by line before responding to each - refer to post #913.

 

[Sarkus]

@ SArkus,
I'll re-post the same so you can have another go at wriggling out of it's ramifications:

You mean like I did in post #913 the first time?

let's see what you come up with this time.
Take it one line at a time if you like.... [Oh I do realize that it is far from perfect but certainly sufficient for it's purpose]

Oh, one line at a time? You mean as I did in post #913?

Learn to read. Learn to understand what is written. Learn to understand what you also write. And try not to be so reactive in your responses: throwing around unfounded accusations isn't going to help your cause.

 

[Quantum Quack]

You mean like I did in post #913 the first time?
Oh, one line at a time? You mean as I did in post #913?

Learn to read. Learn to understand what is written. Learn to understand what you also write. And try not to be so reactive in your responses: throwing around unfounded accusations isn't going to help your cause.

Can you explain this post:

mine:
Choices and decisions etc are made with the use of the imagination. A total fiction until "published" into action.

Yours:
"Fiction" does not equate to "defying the laws of physics". Again, what is it precisely that you think defies the laws of physics? What is it in the act of imagination that requires physics to stop working as it does everywhere else in the universe? A mere unsupported claim will not cut it.

Why are you referring to defying the laws of physics?

When I have explicitly stated:

The imagination does not need to defy the laws of physics but renders them irrelevant as per choice.

Why do you think that I am saying that being a total fiction defies the laws of physics?

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Possible Conditions : The software failed to accept my reply to post via the browser [ firefox ] yet appears to have accepted it twice forum side.
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