The Human Situation

lightgigantic

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Scientific and technical thinking "objectifies" problems. This simply means that all problems and their solutions are considered to be objects external to the mind. This is quite reasonable for problems in the commonplace sphere of human life. For example, if one evening all the lights in my house go out, it is rational to assume that the problem and its solution are objectively electrical. It wouldn't be considered very rational to assume that the problem and solution are subjective--that is, within my mind: "The lights went off just after I had a nasty thought. I shall now think good thoughts to bring the lights back on."

But when we think of solving the problem of the human situation, objectification won't work. I and my mind are part of the problem of the human situation, and so are you and your mind. Therefore the solution-- freedom--is not an object the mind will find "out there" in the external world. Nor can the mind model a theoretical solution that has any hope of success, since the mind itself is the problem. Our inner mental functions (thinking, feeling and willing), by which we try to solve objective problems, are the very cause of the bondage we human beings struggle to free ourselves from.


To analyze something, we must objectify it. By "objectify", it is meant to identify a problem as “existing outside of my mind” as a “separate object of study”--"this is I, that is something else." But I cannot objectify the human situation because “I am part of the problem of humanity.” Moreover, the intellect--the very instrument with which I propose to study the human situation--is itself humanity's problem, because human intellect is laden with material desires. Materialistic intelligence forces us to relate to everything and everyone around us as objects. In “The Fear of Freedom”, psychologist Erich Fromm writes:

the individual appears fully equipped with biologically given drives, which need to be satisfied. In order to satisfy them, the individual enters into relationships with other "objects". Other individuals thus are always a mean's to one's end, the satisfaction of strivings which in themselves originate in the individual before he enters into contact with others.


In such a situation, how can endeavours under the banner of “I” based science or even philosophy render anything substantial on analyzing the human situation?

According to the Vedas, there can be no clear consciousness of our situation without acknowledging the co-consciousness of the Supreme Soul and the unlimited individual souls who expand from Him. My material intellect presupposes "I" am the original subject, and everything around me is the object of my satisfaction--matter. But this is a selfish, unreal perspective. The absolute perspective is that I am a spiritual object of God's love. And like all other souls, I am meant to satisfy His desires. Mantras 6 and 7 of Sri Isopanisad state:

He who sees everything in relation to the Supreme Lord, who sees all entities as His parts and parcels and who sees the Supreme Lord within everything, never hates anything nor any being.

One who always sees all living entities as spiritual sparks, in quality one with the Lord, becomes a true knower of things. What, then, can be illusion or anxiety for him?


Thus the Vedas reveal that our anxiety about our situation in this world is grounded upon illusion. The real basis of the existence of the world is the inseparable, eternal tie of all beings to the Supreme Being. To ignore this fundamental fact is to suffer the pangs of material existence.
 
the nature of problems and their solutions - what else?
And what problems do you refer to?
Why are they problems? - i.e. relative to what?
What are the "solutions" as you see them?

And please no flippant rhetorical questions, please. I'm just trying to get you to clarify your point, whatever it might be.
 
And what problems do you refer to?
Why are they problems? - i.e. relative to what?
What are the "solutions" as you see them?

And please no flippant rhetorical questions, please. I'm just trying to get you to clarify your point, whatever it might be.
the post begins by setting the scene with problems that can be objectified and then moves on to present the limits with that notion and concludes with a suggestion how that limit can be surmounted
 
the post begins by setting the scene with problems that can be objectified and then moves on to present the limits with that notion and concludes with a suggestion how that limit can be surmounted
Yep - can see that - you indicate a limit for that notion (objectification) for a problem that you don't explain.
Until you do you can not expect people to actually have a grasp of what you are getting at.

So please, again, answer the question... What problems are you referring to when you refer to "the problem of the human situation"?
 
My material intellect presupposes "I" am the original subject, and everything around me is the object of my satisfaction--matter. But this is a selfish, unreal perspective. The absolute perspective is that I am a spiritual object of God's love.

If you proclaim yourself the object of god's love, then that is selfish and unreal.

The real basis of the existence of the world is the inseparable, eternal tie of all beings to the Supreme Being. To ignore this fundamental fact is to suffer the pangs of material existence.

Where is the evidence of a supreme being in this so-called 'fact' of yours?
 
LG,

You appeared to have created an illusion for yourself and then offered a fantasy as a solution.

You have introduced an undefined "human situation" and implied this is "scientific and technical thinking", and then quantum leaped to a god and soul as solutions.

Kinda leaves some huge gaps of explanation I think.
 
cris
LG,

You appeared to have created an illusion for yourself and then offered a fantasy as a solution.
coming from a person who's foundation of knowledge makes it impossible to indicate anything in this universe and say what it ultimately is and where it ultimately came from, your accusations are less than a dandelion filament in a cyclone
You have introduced an undefined "human situation"
undefined?
Can you locate a single paragraph of the post that doesn't deal specifically with the issue of problems and their solution?

and implied this is "scientific and technical thinking",
solving problems is not scientific or technical?

and then quantum leaped to a god and soul as solutions.
would you have preferred it if I suggested we could reduce human consciousness to digital codes and transmit them to distant planets?
Kinda leaves some huge gaps of explanation I think.
it suggests that the mind is part of the problem, and that any material solution (even that of digitally reducing consciousness and transmitting it to distant planets) still accommodates this problem
 
“Sarkus

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
the post begins by setting the scene with problems that can be objectified and then moves on to present the limits with that notion and concludes with a suggestion how that limit can be surmounted

Yep - can see that - you indicate a limit for that notion (objectification) for a problem that you don't explain.
Until you do you can not expect people to actually have a grasp of what you are getting at.

So please, again, answer the question... What problems are you referring to when you refer to "the problem of the human situation"?
The only people I have encountered who don’t encounter problems fulfilling their needs, interests and concerns with objectification are stark raving madmen

Do you find the prospect of satisfying your needs via objectification smooth sailing?
 
KennyJC

My material intellect presupposes "I" am the original subject, and everything around me is the object of my satisfaction--matter. But this is a selfish, unreal perspective. The absolute perspective is that I am a spiritual object of God's love.

If you proclaim yourself the object of god's love, then that is selfish and unreal.
and I guess that must make "I" am the original subject, and everything around me is the object of my satisfaction is unselfish and real by default, eh?

The real basis of the existence of the world is the inseparable, eternal tie of all beings to the Supreme Being. To ignore this fundamental fact is to suffer the pangs of material existence.

Where is the evidence of a supreme being in this so-called 'fact' of yours?
as already mentioned many times already (particularly in threads that deal specifically with this common "Achilles heal" of atheists), evidence rests on qualification - if you have problems with that you have problems with the greater picture of knowledge in general (outside of specific issues of a god or religion)
 
KennyJC


and I guess that must make "I" am the original subject, and everything around me is the object of my satisfaction is unselfish and real by default, eh?

Proclaiming that the creator of the universe loves you appears to be the ultimate in self-satisfaction.

as already mentioned many times already (particularly in threads that deal specifically with this common "Achilles heal" of atheists), evidence rests on qualification - if you have problems with that you have problems with the greater picture of knowledge in general (outside of specific issues of a god or religion)

Fair enough, but I'm not about to give something so far-fetched, baseless and irrational any merit - especially when people claim to know the mind of such a thing. Man made in so far as the evidence shows.
 
The only people I have encountered who don’t encounter problems fulfilling their needs, interests and concerns with objectification are stark raving madmen

Do you find the prospect of satisfying your needs via objectification smooth sailing?
Whoa - slow down there, Bob!

First I am trying to understand exactly what "problems" you are talking about when you refer to "the human situation".

Now I see that you are referring to the supposed problem of fulfilling one's needs, interests and concerns.

Thank you for clarifying - finally.


Right, now I understand what you are referring to (although I would prefer a more precise understanding, so as to avoid confusion and misunderstanding later from your possible odd usage of language) I can begin to respond.

Questions:
Why is the "fulfillment of one's needs, interests and concerns" a problem?
What makes them a problem for humans and not for other species?
I guess to answer those you're going to have to also define your understanding of "problem".

Thanks.
 
KennyJC

and I guess that must make "I" am the original subject, and everything around me is the object of my satisfaction is unselfish and real by default, eh?

Proclaiming that the creator of the universe loves you appears to be the ultimate in self-satisfaction.
which leaves you in the default position of "I" am the original subject, and everything around me is the object of my satisfaction - how convenient, eh?
:shrug:

as already mentioned many times already (particularly in threads that deal specifically with this common "Achilles heal" of atheists), evidence rests on qualification - if you have problems with that you have problems with the greater picture of knowledge in general (outside of specific issues of a god or religion)

Fair enough, but I'm not about to give something so far-fetched, baseless and irrational any merit -
Regarding the claims of oceanographers, a person who has thoroughly investigated their bathroom sink would no doubt see such things as the size and depth of the ocean and the millions of life forms it contains as far fetched and baseless, simply because their sink holds only a little water and exhibits no undersea life.
they could also further declare such things to be irrational and bereft of any merit since the sadly ignorant oceanographers do not say that somewhere on the bottom of the sea is a plug, which when pulled, will empty the oceans of the world of all water.


especially when people claim to know the mind of such a thing.
why would god have hang ups revealing his intention for the universe and the living entities within it?
Why does a person who elaborates on these intentions become immediately condemned?

Man made in so far as the evidence shows.
or more realistically, as indicated by the bathroom sink, your qualification shows ....
 
LG,

Thus the Vedas reveal that our anxiety about our situation in this world is grounded upon illusion.
Pure nonsense. If you are anxious about something, deal with it. What you call "the human condition" is life. Enjoy it, it is all you have.

The real basis of the existence of the world is the inseparable, eternal tie of all beings to the Supreme Being.
Total baseless unsupportbale fantasy.

To ignore this fundamental fact is to suffer the pangs of material existence.
The world is both a source of pleasure and suffering - that's life. Deal with it.

It sounds like life is too hard for you so you find it urgent to seek out or believe these fantasies of gods and souls through which you hope you can finally escape? Why not instead grab onto life with both hands and with a positive attitude and enjoy the ride. There is NOTHING to indicate there is anything else.
 
Sarkus

Thank you for clarifying - finally.
no problem

Right, now I understand what you are referring to (although I would prefer a more precise understanding, so as to avoid confusion and misunderstanding later from your possible odd usage of language) I can begin to respond.

Questions:
Why is the "fulfillment of one's needs, interests and concerns" a problem?
we encounter obstacles - clear indications are anxiety, fear, misery, etc


What makes them a problem for humans and not for other species?
due to our advanced consciousness, we are unable to remain in a satisfied position by meeting the bare necessities of eating, sleeping, mating and defending - unlike other animals. we have a more powerful mind, and thus merely eating doesn't constitute satisfaction but rather eating off a golden plate (for eg) - and in the pursuit of such commodities we encounter a unique series of problems not experienced by lower species.
IOW we are distinct from the animals not by the problems that the pursuit of our needs invoke, but by the problems our wants invoke
I guess to answer those you're going to have to also define your understanding of "problem".
problems are of three kinds
microcosmic (from our own body and mind)
mesocosmic (from other living entities)
macrocosmic (from the environment at large, eg - earthquakes, flood etc)
 
Cris

Thus the Vedas reveal that our anxiety about our situation in this world is grounded upon illusion.

Pure nonsense. If you are anxious about something, deal with it. What you call "the human condition" is life. Enjoy it, it is all you have.
oh well what can I say - I hope you enjoy your suffering ....
:shrug:

The real basis of the existence of the world is the inseparable, eternal tie of all beings to the Supreme Being.

Total baseless unsupportbale fantasy.
once again, coming from a person who's foundation of knowledge makes them unable to indicate absolutely anything in the universe and say what it ultimately is or where it ultimately comes from, your accusations are less valid than a dandelion filament in a cyclone

To ignore this fundamental fact is to suffer the pangs of material existence.

The world is both a source of pleasure and suffering - that's life. Deal with it.
if by deal with it you mean make further plans on the platform of ignorance suffering, that doesn't strike me as intelligent

It sounds like life is too hard for you so you find it urgent to seek out or believe these fantasies of gods and souls through which you hope you can finally escape?
on what grounds do you call them fantasies?
Of course we have discussed this in detail numerous times before, and the conclusion seems to be simply because such ideas indicate a value system that you find incongruous with your own

In other words you would prefer to live a life with no prospect of getting free from suffering rather than life a life that is consciously respectful of being greater than you in ways you can never become (ie God)

Why not instead grab onto life with both hands and with a positive attitude and enjoy the ride.
disease, old age and death tend to weaken the grip of even the most adamant gross materialists

There is NOTHING to indicate there is anything else.
safe guess coming from a person who in the ultimate sense cannot indicate anything in the universe ....
 
we encounter obstacles
And why are these obstacles to be considered problems?

problems are of three kinds
microcosmic (from our own body and mind)
mesocosmic (from other living entities)
macrocosmic (from the environment at large, eg - earthquakes, flood etc)
You explain (in the last kind, at least) what is to be considered a problem - but not what a "problem" actually is. Were earthquakes or floods "problems" when noone was around?

Why is an event a "problem" rather than merely an event?
 
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