The Horizon Project

S

Sandsinger

Registered Member
I don't know if many of you have come across this idea on the web recently, The Horizon Project is a synthesis of Catastrophism, Mayan Calendar style prophecy and genuine scientific research, cross referencing many diverse fields, which asserts that the earth is now within a handful of years from a global catastrophic event, this being the solar system's regular, periodic transit through the galactic plane.

thehorizonproject.com

I would like to find out how well known this idea is and how much credence or even basic interest this is being given in the scientific community at large.

To me, it seems a well constructed and researched idea, seemingly pointing the way at an answer to some basic questions about our place in the universe and the nature of our fragile existence here. Yet, to date I have heard no reference to it in mainstream reporting of general or scientific related news, nor have I been able to find reference to opinions about it in several hours of internet research.

If any of you are aware of this or have more information to add, please let me know
 
Sandsinger said:
I don't know if many of you have come across this idea on the web recently, The Horizon Project is a synthesis of Catastrophism, Mayan Calendar style prophecy and genuine scientific research, cross referencing many diverse fields, which asserts that the earth is now within a handful of years from a global catastrophic event, this being the solar system's regular, periodic transit through the galactic plane.

thehorizonproject.com

I would like to find out how well known this idea is and how much credence or even basic interest this is being given in the scientific community at large.

To me, it seems a well constructed and researched idea, seemingly pointing the way at an answer to some basic questions about our place in the universe and the nature of our fragile existence here. Yet, to date I have heard no reference to it in mainstream reporting of general or scientific related news, nor have I been able to find reference to opinions about it in several hours of internet research.

If any of you are aware of this or have more information to add, please let me know
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It's nothing more than pseudoscience, pure and simple. Along with your horizonproject.com people trying to make money from people foolish enough to believe such tripe.

Other than the hucksters (equivalent to snake-oil salesmen and other con artists) trying to rip off a gullible public, I cannot see why ANY ration human being would have any interest in this junk. There's certainly nothing scientific about it.

Request to Mod(s): please move this thing to the woo-woo category and get it out of the science section!!!
 
It's not my website, and I am aware that it suffers on the credibility front because the makers of it are trying to sell it in "episodes". One would imagine that if it is backed by serious scientific facts and recognized as such by the scientific community at large, then it's results would be reported and published and acclaimed by famous scientists the world over.

However, many of the threads I have read here in the science section deal with purely theoretical concepts and unproven ideas in the various sciences.

No offense to you Read-Only, but I'd appreciate this being left where it is to allow other people on this site the opportunity to give their opinions before its officially delegated on this site to the lunatic fringe category. (even if it turns out thats where it actually belongs)
 
Sandsinger said:
It's not my website, and I am aware that it suffers on the credibility front because the makers of it are trying to sell it in "episodes". One would imagine that if it is backed by serious scientific facts and recognized as such by the scientific community at large, then it's results would be reported and published and acclaimed by famous scientists the world over.

However, many of the threads I have read here in the science section deal with purely theoretical concepts and unproven ideas in the various sciences.

No offense to you Read-Only, but I'd appreciate this being left where it is to allow other people on this site the opportunity to give their opinions before its officially delegated on this site to the lunatic fringe category. (even if it turns out thats where it actually belongs)
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No offense taken. :) I referred to that site as "yours" only in the sense that you provided the link. It's obvious you don't own it because otherwise you'd have promoted it much, much more. ;)

As far as real science is concerned, there's no reason whatsoever to believe that crossing the galactic plane has any effect on the Earth or it's inhabitants. One reason for this is quite simple to understand. A "normal" crossing occurs about every 30 +/-3 million years which possibly roughly coincides with some major events in the past, BUT due to the way our solar system and the Earth wobbles and bobbles, we also cross it once every 33 years. And I know of absolutely NO record that shows floods, earthquakes nor any other catastrophic events occurring in regular 33-year intervals. Do you?

So Mayan (or Egyptian, Jewish, Roman or any other) calendar system predicts nothing about the future. The Mayans most certainly did not exist for 30 million years in order to gain any special knowledge of such events. They were simply following the precession of the winter solstices out to the year of 2012.

If you or anyone else wishes to place any value on the Mayan "Sacred Tree", that's purely your and their business to do so. But don't expect any real scientist in any field of study to buy into such nonsense.
 
Can you please link to your sources for the conflicting numbers regarding the periodicity of our crossing of 33 years vs 33 million years? I cannot see how the 1 in a million could be referred to as a "normal" crossing where the other 999,999 are somehow "abnormal". It seems to me they should be the other way around.

The only references I could find for such numbers are contradictory, that is, one source asserts our "normal" crossing frequency as 33 years, the other as approximately 33 million years. If the 33 years periodicty is correct, then the 33 million year period stands to reason as the result of the cycle occuring regularly 1 million times, and I would have expected to hear about this frequent, well known phenomenon being reported and observed many times in recorded history.
 
Sandsinger said:
Can you please link to your sources for the conflicting numbers regarding the periodicity of our crossing of 33 years vs 33 million years? I cannot see how the 1 in a million could be referred to as a "normal" crossing where the other 999,999 are somehow "abnormal". It seems to me they should be the other way around.

The only references I could find for such numbers are contradictory, that is, one source asserts our "normal" crossing frequency as 33 years, the other as approximately 33 million years. If the 33 years periodicty is correct, then the 33 million year period stands to reason as the result of the cycle occuring regularly 1 million times, and I would have expected to hear about this frequent, well known phenomenon being reported and observed many times in recorded history.
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Sorry, I don't have any references handy, those are just common numbers I've seen used in cosmological papers over the years.

It doesn't matter though, because you've already found the same numbers. :) And, no they aren't contradictory at all - it's just that you haven't fully understood what you read. ;)

The solar system has an orbit that it follows around center of the galaxy just as the planets have theirs that they follow around the sun. And traveling along that path, it crosses the central plane once about every 33 million years. That's the first number.

I've already explained how the second one happens every 33 years but I'll rehash it for you again. The solar system is tilted with respect to the galactic center and the Earth also wobbles and bobbles as it moves along. It does that so much so that it actually crosses the plane once every 33 years. That's the second number - and there's no great mystery to either one of them. They are both accurate numbers.

Which beings me back to the question I asked: as you aware of any serious events that happen every 33 years just a regular as clockwork? The fact is that there is no significance at all to crossing the central plane. That thought is nothing more than modern mythology just like the ancient version was about comets being harbingers of some great calamity about to befall us. Both of those thoughts - crossing the plane and comets - are nothing but the result of ignorant, superstitious minds at work.
 
Sandsinger said:
I would like to find out how well known this idea is and how much credence or even basic interest this is being given in the scientific community at large.

If any of you are aware of this or have more information to add, please let me know
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It is nothing more than hype put out by those trying to make a living off of crap that is pulled out of their ass.
 
I do know something. The Earth should be ready to flip magnetic poles soon enough, isn't it?
 
Reiku said:
I do know something. The Earth should be ready to flip magnetic poles soon enough, isn't it?
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Quite correct. Probably within the next fifty thousand years and possibly the next 5,000 or 10,000. There is even a chance the process might begin within the next 1,000. Your point?
 
It happens every 100,000 years so it is something that can be monitored. There's nothing in archeology that shows anything bad happening during the last "switch" so I don't think the Earth will have any problems this time either.
 
Well, it just so happens that man only appeared 100,000 years ago? Quite a close merge actually. We may have never seen one.
 
Reiku said:
Well, it just so happens that man only appeared 100,000 years ago? Quite a close merge actually. We may have never seen one.
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I am not sure what you mean by 'quite a close merge'.
Most authorities would place the emergence of man at around 180,000 - 200, 000 years.
The average time between reversals is about 250,000 years, but the last one was over 750,000 years ago. You are therefore correct - homo spaiens has never witnessed one. Nevertheless we have no reason to suspect that the effects will be hugely damaging.
 
Sandsinger said:
No offense to you Read-Only, but I'd appreciate this being left where it is to allow other people on this site the opportunity to give their opinions before its officially delegated on this site to the lunatic fringe category. (even if it turns out thats where it actually belongs)
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I will not move this thread at your request, however if it doesn't produce the results expected, I'll move it to Pseudoscience. :)
 
Read-Only said:
Sorry, I don't have any references handy, those are just common numbers I've seen used in cosmological papers over the years.

It doesn't matter though, because you've already found the same numbers. :) And, no they aren't contradictory at all - it's just that you haven't fully understood what you read. ;)

The solar system has an orbit that it follows around center of the galaxy just as the planets have theirs that they follow around the sun. And traveling along that path, it crosses the central plane once about every 33 million years. That's the first number.

I've already explained how the second one happens every 33 years but I'll rehash it for you again. The solar system is tilted with respect to the galactic center and the Earth also wobbles and bobbles as it moves along. It does that so much so that it actually crosses the plane once every 33 years. That's the second number - and there's no great mystery to either one of them. They are both accurate numbers.

Which beings me back to the question I asked: as you aware of any serious events that happen every 33 years just a regular as clockwork? The fact is that there is no significance at all to crossing the central plane. That thought is nothing more than modern mythology just like the ancient version was about comets being harbingers of some great calamity about to befall us. Both of those thoughts - crossing the plane and comets - are nothing but the result of ignorant, superstitious minds at work.
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So, let me get this straight. The sun, which the earth follows, does a slow and steady repeating s-bend through space which has it pass the galactic plane once every 33 million years. The Earth therefore must also pass through the plane at roughly the same time.

Apparently the sun then spends 32.9999999 million years skimming along the galactic plane within cosmological bullet burn distance, allowing the earth's natural wobbles and bobbles to cause it to dip below and back above the plane once every 33 years? If the sun does remain this close to the galactic plane, the only function I can imagine allowing the earth to pass above and below the plane would be the orbit of the earth itself, which does not take 33 years to complete. By this argument the earth would cross the galactic plane once every 6 months or so, once passing below then back above again to join the sun every earth orbit.

I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that the mechanics of your suggestion make no sense to me.

'edit - addition'

- It seems to me there is something of genuine scientific interest involved here, and it's only a pity that so many people are unwilling to even take a moment to think about it seriously because of the "woo-woo" mayan aspect that comes along with it. The mayans and other ancient cultures built, measured and otherwise worked many things out to degrees of accuracy barely matched by us in all our modern glory, it's a shame to brush all the triumphs of the past aside as trash when all we know is derived from and built upon it.
 
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Sandsinger said:
I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that the mechanics of your suggestion make no sense to me.
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Well, much like your statement about the website not being "yours" the mechanics and/or suggestion isn't "mine" either.

I'm sorry that you do not understand that things really do not move as smoothly through space in perfectly round orbits without perturbations as you might like them to be. In fact, practically nothing does. If you cannot accept those things as facts then I suggest you do some very basic studying on the field of cosmology. You would likely find it very interesting as well as informative.
 
Read only, for someone whose posts I normally respect and read with interest, your description of the 33 million and the 33 year cycles is just an amazing load of codswallop. If it was intended as some sort of tongue in cheek humour it missed the mark by a couple of galactic planes and high red shift! The best interpretation I can put on it is that you are speaking about our orientation to the galactic plane, which is a wholly different matter. I await with grim anticipation for your response.
 
Well, I have no idea why crossing the mean galactic plane in and of itself would be an issue at all. But there is some serious speculation that as the solar system orbits the galaxy, it may periodically pass through regions of higher-than-normal interstellar dust and gas concentrations. This could cause the solar radiant flux at the earth to drop by a few percent and could concievably contribute to the onset of ice ages. Or not. I don't think there's any conclusive evidence of this at all.
 
There are two cycles which might be the source of this pseudoscience nonsense.
The first is the precession of the equinoxes,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_of_the_equinoxes
which is the slow movement of the equinoxes (and also, of course, the solstices) around the ecliptic over time. The ecliptic crosses the midplane of the Milky Way in two places, (of course, as they are both Great Circles). This cycle takes 25,765 years.

Now it just so happens that the location of the Winter Solstice on the ecliptic is currently very near the midplane of the Milky Way as seen from Earth. It is certainly possible that this conjunction was foreseen by Mayan astronomers more than a thousand years ago; if so they were remarkably accurate. But they don't seem to mention this fact anywhere or describe it in detail in any records or legends. Incidentally the closest approach of the Solstice to the galactic plane seems to have occured already, back in 1999, with no effects whatsoever.

The other cycle is the sine-wave-like undulation of the Sun and the Solar System as it passes through the disk of the Milky Way. This is caused by the distribution of mass in the plane of the galaxy and takes roughly 66 million years for a full cycle, 33 million years for half a wavelength. The midplane of the Milky Way in this context is defined by an equal distribution of mass above and below the plane. This midplane is of course entirely different from the midplane of the galaxy as seen from Earth, as the best estimates put us about fifty light years from the midplane as defined by the mass distribution;
http://solar-center.stanford.edu/FAQ/Qsolsysspeed.html
so we are not anywhere special at this moment.

Nothing special will happen in 2012, as there is nothing special about that date astronomically.
 
Ophiolite said:
Read only, for someone whose posts I normally respect and read with interest, your description of the 33 million and the 33 year cycles is just an amazing load of codswallop. If it was intended as some sort of tongue in cheek humour it missed the mark by a couple of galactic planes and high red shift! The best interpretation I can put on it is that you are speaking about our orientation to the galactic plane, which is a wholly different matter. I await with grim anticipation for your response.
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I think the 33 year cycle is a mistake. The best estimate of periodic galactic plane crossings is ~33my. The solar system's galactic orbital plane is inclined about 25 degrees to that of the galactic plane itself. The solar system moves above and below this plane by about 250LY every 33my during its orbit of the galactic center.
 
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