The great minds of skeptics

[ComputerPsi]

There are basically 3 types of skeptics, against the existance of telekinesis (and other paranormal actions):
1. Ones that don't believe that telekinesis at all, and look up, or think of information that would disprove it's existence.
2. Ones that tried searching for people that can do telekinesis, or tried doing it themselves, but did not succeed, which is why they try to go against the fact of it being possible.
3. Ones that found information about real telekinesis done or successfully performed telekinesis, but did not believe that it was possible, and turned against it.

For the skeptics that fall in category one:
You probably looked up a lot of information or just thought about on how telekinesis may not exist... but think, did you ever think or look up information on telekinesis existing? There is surprisingly, a lot of documented information about telekinesis existing. Some places even have videos, with objects being moved or changed, using telekinesis. Can't find any information? Then you are looking in the wrong section. I always say, that the best proof, is doing the action, yourself.. but if you are not willing to do that, then just look up some information. For starters, you can go to google, and type in "telekinesis proof". Yep, its that simple. It doesn't take long.. Once you find some proof saying the telekinesis exists, ask youself, "Does this sound logical?". If the answer is no, ask yourself why isn't it logical. "Because its not normal" is not a good answer. Ask this question for every detail for proof given, and you will decide wether telekinesis is real or not.

For the skeptics that fall in category two and three:
What? You look up information, and give up? Well, what do videos like this mean to you? You think its fake? What about websites like http://www.fork-you.com/, and http://www.ppsociety.com/? What would be the point of faking the whole website? They have almost no gain in doing that... Just because you failed once (or more times), doesn't mean you can't try again.



Hm.. I never saw a post like this one before, so probably 1 of 4 things will happen:
1. A whole bunch of skeptics are going to try to disprove me, or say something against what I said.
2. Almost nobody will reply at all.
3. A couple of people would agree with me, and others will start disagreeing with the people that agreed.
4. Something unexpected will happen, do to me writing some of the more common results that may happen.

*awaits result*

 

[shaman_]

Well, what do videos like this mean to you? You think its fake?

Yes.

Perhaps you should analyse the evidence as thoroughly as you analyse the sceptics.

 

[SkinWalker]

Well, what do videos like this mean to you?

That someone is very profficient with a magnet or at securing a camera to a small set and changing the pitch/yaw.

There's also the fourth kind of skeptic: the one that acknowledges that the so-called power of telekinesis is possible while also acknowledging that there has yet to be ONE scientifically meaningful experiment that demonstrates that it DOES occur. This skeptic also acknowledges that there are many, many people who attempt personal gain by pretending and hoaxing such "powers."

By the way, personal gain is rarely about money, in case someone was about to announce how poor such-and-such psychic is/was.

 

[ComputerPsi]

Yes.

Perhaps you should analyse the evidence as thoroughly as you analyse the sceptics.

I do analyse the evidence. I have both talked to the person that created this video, and I have tried doing the telekinesis myself. As far as I'm concerned, I think it is possible.

That someone is very profficient with a magnet or at securing a camera to a small set and changing the pitch/yaw.

There's also the fourth kind of skeptic: the one that acknowledges that the so-called power of telekinesis is possible while also acknowledging that there has yet to be ONE scientifically meaningful experiment that demonstrates that it DOES occur. This skeptic also acknowledges that there are many, many people who attempt personal gain by pretending and hoaxing such "powers."

By the way, personal gain is rarely about money, in case someone was about to announce how poor such-and-such psychic is/was.

I agree. I have not noted this fourth kind of skeptic, because I have nothing to say to him/her. Because of the people that think they will get a personal gain from faking this power (including magicians), there are still many skeptics out there that do not believe in it. Infact, if I did not experience telekinesis myself, I would not believe that the video is real. It is always possible that in some way, he faked the video, for either a personal gain, or for some stupid reason, but you have to realise that not all people are like that. If you don't count magicians, you will find very few people that fake what they do. Many people that have this ability usually don't show it to the public, which is why you hardly see any good videos or evidence of this.


Premonitioner14p0:
Why do you advertise so much? You got about 50 posts of the same advertisment in many different posts of this website. I'm surprised you are not banned yet.

 

[Ophiolite]

I have not noted this fourth kind of skeptic, because I have nothing to say to him/her.

Why?

 

[exsto_human]

You forgot the meta-skeptic.

A meta-skeptic is objective and 'professionaly' cares nothing for the petty vanity of proving or disproving claims. Incredulous but not haughty.

I am not claiming to be such an individual, as far as I know these people are simply hypothetical.

 

[ComputerPsi]

Ophiolite - That is because I agree with this type of a skeptic.

exsto_human - From the description you made, a meta-skeptic falls into category one, but also just doesn't care about the subject in general. Well, since a meta-skeptic cares nothing for proving or disproving the claim, I also have nothing to say to them, since they would not care about what I am saying.

 

[SkinWalker]

Infact, if I did not experience telekinesis myself, I would not believe that the video is real.

Its more likely that you were tricked or deluded. That you are lying is an even more likely than the prospect that you "experienced telekinesis." I say this not to be rude, but to reaffirm that "telekinesis" has no verified or verifiable experiementation to support it. If so, point us to the peer-reviewed publication that published it.

It is always possible that in some way, he faked the video, for either a personal gain, or for some stupid reason, but you have to realise that not all people are like that.

I disagree. I think all people have desire for personal gain, at least on some level. But I recognize that the "gain" part can be very subjective and relative to the person. For some, it might be satisfying to help others. For some, it might be satisfying to dupe others.

If you disagree, name one altruistic event or action that you, or anyone else, has done, and I'll point out the probable selfish nature of the act. Even if its a mother drowing to save her toddler from the same fate.

Many people that have this ability usually don't show it to the public, which is why you hardly see any good videos or evidence of this.

Ahh. The hidden/secretive abilities argument. If it were hidden, do you really think we'd hear so much nonsense about how it were real?. That argument is about as weak as the argument that the so-called practicioner can't perform because of the negative waves of the Skeptic. Let's call this the "Oddball Argument," shall we (from Donald Sutherland's character, "Oddball" in Kelly's Heroes)?

 

[ComputerPsi]

Its more likely that you were tricked or deluded. That you are lying is an even more likely than the prospect that you "experienced telekinesis." I say this not to be rude, but to reaffirm that "telekinesis" has no verified or verifiable experiementation to support it. If so, point us to the peer-reviewed publication that published it.

ah.. again, I found somebody that doesn't believe in telekinesis. Well, if experimental information is what you need, that is what I will show. Being an open minded scientist, I was able to find some documented information of telekinesis. I don't know if you will read it, but here:
http://www.jackhouck.com/pdf_files/mdi.pdf

I disagree. I think all people have desire for personal gain, at least on some level. But I recognize that the "gain" part can be very subjective and relative to the person. For some, it might be satisfying to help others. For some, it might be satisfying to dupe others.

I think that you are saying this, from your personal experience.

If you disagree, name one altruistic event or action that you, or anyone else, has done, and I'll point out the probable selfish nature of the act. Even if its a mother drowing to save her toddler from the same fate.

Hm.... I can see where are you going, and I know how you would point out the probable selfish nature of act, in a mother drowing to save her toddler... I can not give you an example, because in any case, you would always be able to come up with a comment showing how the action will be "selfish". If I say something like a fireman saving people, you would say that it's a personal gain to him/her, to gain respect, happiness, etc. If I say that a person tries to act unique, from everybody else, you would say that that is his/her way to show that they are different, gaining respect, confidence, etc. There are millions of ways to go against a comment, as there is millions of ways to make one.

Ahh. The hidden/secretive abilities argument. If it were hidden, do you really think we'd hear so much nonsense about how it were real?. That argument is about as weak as the argument that the so-called practicioner can't perform because of the negative waves of the Skeptic. Let's call this the "Oddball Argument," shall we (from Donald Sutherland's character, "Oddball" in Kelly's Heroes)?

*laughs as reads* First of all, I never heard about the "negative waves from the Skeptic"... you must have been talking with a lot of people about this subject huh? "If it were hidden, do you really think we'd hear so much nonsense about how it were real?." Yes. Let me give you an example. Ever hear of area 51? Yes, place that is said to be for contacting with aliens. It is supposed to be secret.. but why do you think that there is so much talk of it being real?


It was nice talking to you. You are probably going to reply going against different sections of comments that I made. I just want to tell you something - If you are a real scientist, not just somebody that argues about different theories, you should experiment, on your own.

 

[SkinWalker]

Being an open minded scientist, I was able to find some documented information of telekinesis. I don't know if you will read it, but here:
http://www.jackhouck.com/pdf_files/mdi.pdf

I did read it (it was quite short). But this is what I asked: ""telekinesis" has no verified or verifiable experiementation to support it. If so, point us to the peer-reviewed publication that published it."

Not only was the article not published, it seemed to rely heavily on the PK Party fad that was popular in the late 70's. Moreover, the methodology was vague and controls weren't used, but this is an expected problem of pseudoscientific studies. I also doubt your claim of being an "open-minded scientist" based on your apparent willingness to accept this paper as legitimate. An open-minded person would also allow appropriate, skeptical questions to enter his/her mind that would ultimately result in the open-minded person discarding such a pseudoscientific attempt at creating a document that supports a phenomenon that, as yet, defies attempts to impose true scientific scrutiny with appropriate scientific controls.

Houck uses pseudoscientific terminology, specifically "PK energy" as if this is meaningful to anyone that isn't already a believer in "PK" or an under-educated individual who doesn't realize that such an "energy" hasn't been demonstrated to exist.

Indeed, there has been a fair amount of literature that discusses the hoaxes, illusions, deceptions, and hysterias associated with such events as "spoon bending/PK parties." As much as the pro-"psi" community hates James Randi, this video is compelling and includes Uri Geller's utter failure on the tonight show. It, alone, is very suggestive that the spoons have to be prepared before hand. Martin Gardner (1983) points out the "psychic cheaters" when he recounts the study by physicists John Taylor and Joh Hasted, who were convinced that a group of children had PK ability and could twist cutlery. These two researchers were puzzled by the "shyness" factor that I mentioned in my last post. They never got the opportunity to see the kids bend the metal. As Gardner points out, when researchers tighten the controls, they begin to find that subjects either cheat or cannot perform.

I think that you are saying this [selfish gain in favor of altruism], from your personal experience.

Sure. I'm motivated by other-than-altruism. I might be smug about many things, but I refuse to be about this. Status and legitimacy are human characteristics. But whether they are advantageous or deleterious or not is subjective and relative to the individual and the situation. There is considerable weight applied to the hypothesis that order, legitimacy, and wealth is the primary cause for the rise of complexity in civilizations. Status among our peers is important to us even in the most egalitarian of societies -otherwise there wouldn't be those that are helpful to one-another; those that provide food to those that don't have it; those that provide shelter to those that don't have it; etc. The acts create political and social capital and ensure that those that perform them are seen as righteous and just from the perspective of their peers.

*laughs as reads* First of all, I never heard about the "negative waves from the Skeptic"... you must have been talking with a lot of people about this subject huh?

I'm referring to the "shyness" effect, which I've read in critiques both pro and con to so-called "psi" abilities. This has been invoked as the reason why "skeptical" researchers cannot observe "psi" or "PK" events when appropriate controls are emplaced. Of course, "Oddball" invoked this as the reason why the bridge was destroyed: "Moriarity" doubted it!

"If it were hidden, do you really think we'd hear so much nonsense about how it were real?." Yes. Let me give you an example. Ever hear of area 51?

Of course I have. It's a very real place who's existance isn't denied by the government. What is denied, however, is public access -both physically and intellectually- without appropriate security clearance. There are many, legitimate, reasons why this can be so that need not be paranormal, supernatural, or alien. I should think that the inner rings of the Pentagon have simular restriction. Niether the inner rings of the Pentagon or Area 51 are hidden, they are merely restricted.

It was nice talking to you. You are probably going to reply going against different sections of comments that I made. I just want to tell you something - If you are a real scientist, not just somebody that argues about different theories, you should experiment, on your own.

I'd be happy to. In fact, I've a couple of experiments in mind that I'd like to conduct relating to the embellishment of observed phenomena by eye witnesses. If you know of someone with "PK ability" that is in, or will be in, the Dallas/Fort Worth area, and wants to be tested, I'd be happy to oblige. I mean that with all sincerity.

Cheers.

Reference:

Gardner, Martin (1983) "Lessons of a Landmark PK Hoax", Skeptical Inquirer, Summer issue, pp. 16-19.

 

[The Webber]

I had to laugh about the entire conversation... it's SO useless... Like ComputerPsi will ever convince SkinWalker of the fact that TK exists, and like SkinWalker will ever convince ComputerPsi of the fact it doesn't exist.

Start thinking, ComputerPsi experienced TK himself, so he has a reason to believe in it. Whether you believe him or not. I experienced TK myself, and I have a reason to believe in it. I respect sceptics, I like the ways they try to prove things wrong while they are right. You got to have a purpose in live don't you?

But come on, cut the crap... This is going nowhere, let skeptics believe that they are right. Let them dream on, I don't care anymore... don't try to convince people, if they REALLY want to find the answer, they have to try it out for themselves. Without that, they shouldn't be disapproving it.

TK practisers come from all over the world, I'm from The Netherlands/Europe. Before I started out, I got some great support from people who were good at it, and I got better too. Even though I stopped with practising TK, I know confidence and believing is the trick. Controlling is something else... that's why I've quit...

 

[The Webber]

I'd like to give another example, this time.. it doesn't have a lot to do with TK and Psi-energy, but it's true.

50% of the people dropping by at the docter suffer psychosomatic diseases or diseases with a psychosomatic cause. If you are smart enough to know what psychosomatic means, then you'd know what I mean.

The body is related to 'something else'. It doesn't matter what, but we do know that it exists, while we can't prove it. But the thing with this is, that sceptics can't prove that it does NOT exist. So why do people say that TK doesn't exist, while nobody can prove that. TK practisers already have their proof...

Oh by the way, those diseases can be solved with therapy... so the people that healed by that have their proof too... while still... the skeptic have no proof that it's not true.

(edit: added the last paragraph)

 

[SkinWalker]

Well, The Webber, if you ever want to make a couple million, come see me and I'll be your manager for a modest percentage. I know where you can collect up to around $2.5 million with your abilities. If you "aren't in it for the money," I can suggest some very worthy charities that you can donate your cut to.

50% of the people dropping by at the docter suffer psychosomatic diseases or diseases with a psychosomatic cause.

You care to cite a source for this startling statistic of health care?

But the thing with this is, that sceptics can't prove that it does NOT exist. So why do people say that TK doesn't exist, while nobody can prove that. TK practisers already have their proof.

The problem that skeptics have with so-called "TK" isn't whether it exists or not or even whether misguided believers think it does or not. The real problem is with charlatans like Uri Geller who get rich on the notion that they can "bend spoons" with their minds. Or even the small time community psychic that takes advantage of the bereaved or belittles their losses by claiming to have some "psychic knowledge" of the event when they cold-read the entire thing.

I don't mind people getting status or legitimacy among peers through ficticious means, but when there are others being taken advantage of it's a problem.

Of course "TK," "PK," and "Psi" cannot be disproven. But the very fact that they cannot be proven is, alone, more than enough reason to doubt, if not scorn, the entire notion.

 

[The Webber]

Okay, you'll have it your way... you want to make fun of me, I'll make fun of you..

If I want to make a couple of million dollars? Of course I want to, but why should I go to America for a guy whos balls can be levitated by a TK beginner.

Come on, be serious... do have any idea of how many people already tried that. It's not accepted by the society. It's "weird", "odd", "unusual" perhaps "scary". By the way, there are so many skeptics that make it impossible to break through. Again: be serious.

 

[SkinWalker]

Come on, be serious... do have any idea of how many people already tried that. It's not accepted by the society. It's "weird", "odd", "unusual" perhaps "scary". By the way, there are so many skeptics that make it impossible to break through. Again: be serious.

Either it can be done or it cannot. Period.

If you can prove it, I can arrange it. We'll be rich.

It's the ultimate "put up or STFU."

 

[The Webber]

Of course "TK," "PK," and "Psi" cannot be disproven. But the very fact that they cannot be proven is, alone, more than enough reason to doubt, if not scorn, the entire notion.

You were almost saying the right thing... but..... you screwed it up again...


It can be proven, only not by you... that's the point. You think everybody is the same as you are. When serious people, on serious forums (actually fora, from Latin... but anyway...) say that they can do something. I do not always believe them, that depends on what I can do myself. If someone says he can levitate a car, I'd laugh at him and say he's a liar. But when people can roll over a pen, or let the psi wheel spin, I believe them...

It's all about experience... seeing is believing...

I can prove it, but will it help? I will only convince you... Well that's a heck of an affect on the society. over 17,000,000,000 people... and I would've convinced one, HURRAY!!!

 

[(Q)]

The Webber sez:

Start thinking

If I did, I wouldn't believe in TK.

 

[SkinWalker]

It can be proven, only not by you... over 17,000,000,000 people... and I would've convinced one, HURRAY!!!

You do realize that that's more than twice the world population.... right?

And you want us to believe you about the paranormal....

 

[ComputerPsi]

LOL! It's amazing how much amusement you can get from this conversation. SkinWalker, thanks for the video! But you know what? James Randi only seemed to talk about 2 people... but just like he exposed, you can probably come up with every possible trick, that was presented, as done in telekinesis. That doesn't mean its fake. I can fake that I am walking on a video, by taking different pictures of me standing in different positions, put them together, and move me around. Eventually, I would be able to make a video of me walking. Yes its fake, but is it possible? I surely hope so.
You know that I started this post talking about skeptics? And now, we are talking about trying to prove that telekinesis exists. I wonder why? As for the $2.5 million offer.. well, I would come, but only if it was near New Jersey..

The Webber, I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[The Webber]

You do realize that that's more than twice the world population.... right?

And you want us to believe you about the paranormal....

Haha oh sorry, first wanted to tell to convince the population of the Netherlands which is 17,000,000 but after that I realized you weren't Dutch... Stupid mistake.

I do sort of agree with (Q), when you're practising TK you shouldn't think a lot... But thinking about the origine of something, and how it works, is an entire other subject, where people DO have to think about.

I don't believe everything people say... but this is something I believe, from my own experience... you can keep on saying we fake everything, but if that's the way you play the game, I can play along in the same way...

Did you put on clean underwear this morning? If you say you did... I don't believe you...

How childish... :bugeye: Should you actually be talking with the 'guys' instead of playing on the playground?