The Gospels—History or Myth?

Saquist

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The Gospels—History or Myth?

Around the world the story of Jesus of Nazareth—a young man who changed the course of human history—is woven into the fabric of society. It is part of people’s formal and informal education. Many consider the Gospels to be the fountains of timeless truths and adages, such as, “Let your Yes mean Yes, your No, No.” (Matthew 5:37)

The Gospels have provided the basis and inspiration for courage, endurance, faith, and hope. Would you not, then, agree that it should take irrefutable evidence to dismiss these accounts as mere fiction? Considering the immense influence that the Gospel accounts have had on human thought and behavior, would you not demand convincing proof if someone wanted to cast doubt on their authenticity?


QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER

♦ Could the Gospels be a masterful invention?

Robert Funk, the founder of the Jesus Seminar, says: “Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ‘marketed the Messiah’ to make him conform to Christian doctrine that evolved after the death of Jesus.” While the Gospels were being written, however, many who had heard Jesus’ sayings, had observed his deeds, and had seen him after his resurrection were still alive. They did not charge the Gospel writers with any form of fraud.

Consider the death and resurrection of Christ. Not only do the Gospels contain reliable accounts of Jesus’ death and resurrection but so does the apostle Paul’s first canonical letter to Christians in ancient Corinth. He wrote: “I handed on to you, among the first things, that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures; and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that he appeared to upward of five hundred brothers at one time, the most of whom remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep in death. After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles; but last of all he appeared also to me as if to one born prematurely.” They were custodians of historical facts regarding the life of Jesus.

The inventiveness alleged by modern critics is not found in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Rather, it appears in documents of the second century*C.E. So certain unscriptural narratives about Christ were produced when an apostasy from true Christianity was developing among communities alienated from the apostolic congregation.—Acts 20:28-30.

♦ Could the Gospels be legends?

Author and critic C. S. Lewis found it difficult to view the Gospels as mere legends. “As a literary historian I am perfectly convinced that whatever the Gospels are, they are not legends,” he wrote. “They are not artistic enough to be legends. . . . Most of the life of Jesus is unknown to us, and no people building up a legend would allow that to be so.” It is also interesting that although noted historian H. G. Wells did not claim to be a Christian, he acknowledged: “All four [Gospel writers] agree in giving us a picture of a very definite personality; they carry the . . . conviction of reality.” H.G. Wells, a creator of fiction disassociating the Gospel accounts as fiction.

Consider an instance when the resurrected Jesus appeared to his disciples. A good legend maker would likely have had Jesus stage a spectacular comeback, deliver a momentous speech, or be bathed in light and splendor. Instead, the Gospel writers simply describe him as standing in front of his disciples. Then he asked: “Young children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” (John 21:5) Scholar Gregg Easterbrook concludes: “These are the sorts of touches that suggest a genuine account, not myth-building.”

The accusation that the Gospels are legends also stumbles on the strict rabbinic method of teaching that was in fashion during the time of the writing of the Gospels. That method adhered closely to learning by rote—a memorizing process using routine or repetition. This favors the accurate and careful rendering of Jesus’ sayings and works as opposed to the creation of an embellished version. (I'll be posting that in another thread)

♦ If the Gospels were legends, could they have been compiled so quickly after the death of Jesus?

According to available evidence, the Gospels were written between the years 41 and 98 C.E. Jesus died in the year 33*C.E. This means that the accounts of his life were put together in a comparatively short time after his ministry ended. This poses a tremendous obstacle to the argument that the Gospel narratives are mere legends.

Time is needed for legends to develop. Take, for example, the Iliad and the Odyssey by the ancient Greek poet Homer. Some hold that the text of those two epic legends developed and became stabilized over hundreds of years. What about the Gospels?

In his book Caesar and Christ, historian Will Durant writes: “That a few simple men should . . . have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels. After two centuries of Higher Criticism the outlines of the life, character, and teaching of Christ, remain reasonably clear, and constitute the most fascinating feature in the history of Western man.”

♦ Were the Gospels later edited to fit the needs of the early Christian community?

Some critics argue that the politics of the early Christian community caused the Gospel writers to edit the story of Jesus or add to it. However, a close study of the Gospels shows that no such doctoring took place. If Gospel accounts concerning Jesus were altered as a result of first-century Christian intrigue, why do negative remarks about both Jews and Gentiles still appear in the text?

A case in point is found at Matthew 6:5-7, where Jesus is quoted as saying: “When you pray, you must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I say to you, They are having their reward in full.” Clearly, this was a condemnation of Jewish religious leaders. Jesus further said: “When praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations [the Gentiles] do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words.” By quoting Jesus in this way, the Gospel writers were not trying to win converts. They were simply recording statements actually made by Jesus Christ.

There is much more. Consider also the Gospel accounts regarding the women who visited Jesus’ tomb and saw that it was empty. (Mark 16:1-8) According to Gregg Easterbrook, “in the sociology of the ancient Middle East, testimony by women was considered inherently unreliable: for instance, two male witnesses were sufficient to convict a woman of adultery, while no woman’s testimony could convict a man.” Indeed, Jesus’ own disciples did not believe the women! (Luke 24:11) It is thus most unlikely that such a story would have been deliberately invented.

The absence of parables in the episle and in the book of Acts is a strong argument that those in the Gospels were not aserted by early Christians but were spoken by Jesus himself. Additionally, a careful comparison of the Gospels with the epistles reveals that neither Paul’s words nor those of other writers of the Greek Scriptures were artfully reworded and ascribed to Jesus. If the early Christian community had done such a thing, we should expect to find at least some of the material from the epistles in the Gospel accounts. Since we do not, we can surely conclude that the Gospel material is original and authentic. (an epistle meaning a formal letter)

♦ What about seeming contradictions in the Gospels?

Critics have long claimed that the Gospels are full of contradictions. Historian Durant sought to examine the Gospel accounts from a purely objective standpoint—as historical documents. Though he says that there are seeming contradictions in them, he concludes: “The contradictions are of minutiae [trivial details], not substance; in essentials the synoptic gospels agree remarkably well, and form a consistent portrait of Christ.”

Seeming contradictions in Gospel accounts are often easily resolved. To illustrate: Matthew 8:5 says that “an army officer came to [Jesus], entreating him” to cure a manservant. At Luke, we read that the officer “sent forth older men of the Jews to [Jesus] to ask him to come and bring [the] slave safely through.” The officer sent the elders as his representatives. Matthew says that the army officer himself entreated Jesus because the man made his request through the elders, who served as his mouthpiece. This is just one example showing that alleged discrepancies in the Gospels can be resolved.

What of the claims of higher critics that the Gospels do not meet the criteria of real history? Continues Durant: “In the enthusiasm of its discoveries the Higher Criticism has applied to the New Testament tests of authenticity so severe that by them a hundred ancient worthies—e.g., Hammurabi, David, Socrates—would fade into legend. Despite the prejudices and theological preconceptions of the evangelists, they record many incidents that mere inventors would have concealed—the competition of the apostles for high places in the Kingdom, their flight after Jesus’ arrest, Peter’s denial . . . No one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them.”


WHAT IS YOUR CONCLUSION?

After considering the foregoing points, what do you think? Is there real, convincing proof that the Gospels are mere myth? Many find the questions and doubts raised about the authenticity of the Gospels to be shaky and unconvincing. Classifying the accounts of Jesus as myth and legend runs counter to how they are represented and recieved in ancient times. The existence of these accounts are positive indications of the historical value. Being centuries removed it would be most difficult to offer true detractions to it's testimony. But we all form our own opinions.

I am continuing to do research on this topic as the forums continues to bring the topic to light. An open persepective and objective consideration of the facts are prefered as are all other intelligent commentary.
 
The Gospels—History or Myth?
The Gospels have provided the basis and inspiration for courage, endurance, faith, and hope. Would you not, then, agree that it should take irrefutable evidence to dismiss these accounts as mere fiction? Considering the immense influence that the Gospel accounts have had on human thought and behavior, would you not demand convincing proof if someone wanted to cast doubt on their authenticity?
A simple answer: no.

If someone wants to claim the Gospels as fact it is THEY who are making the assertion and the onus of proof is upon them to provide the necessary evidence.

And if they wish to assert the performance of the miracles within the Bible as described, they need to provide very good evidence indeed.

The Roman / Greek pantheon of Gods were also the basis and inspiration for the civilised European world - so you would have us believe these as more than mere fiction on this basis?
Or is it solely because the Gospels have had "a good press" since their writing in 100 AD or so, and have become so widespread that you think they are more deserving?

And the fact that they contain "timeless truths" is mostly irrelevant, as there is not a single idea in the Gospels that really goes beyond "do as you would have done to yourself".

So you're basically onto a loser in these forums with your approach - as no rational person would start with the assumption that they are truth, merely on the bases you have provided.

So - try starting from the assumption that they are fiction - and work upwards based on actual evidence, rather than trying to start at your claim and ask for it to be shot down.
 
-Just some counter questions included in your post.

The Gospels—History or Myth?

Around the world the story of Jesus of Nazareth—a young man who changed the course of human history—is woven into the fabric of society. It is part of people’s formal and informal education. Many consider the Gospels to be the fountains of timeless truths and adages, such as, “Let your Yes mean Yes, your No, No.” (Matthew 5:37)

The Gospels have provided the basis and inspiration for courage, endurance, faith, and hope. (-So have other religions ?) Would you not, then, agree that it should take irrefutable evidence to dismiss these accounts as mere fiction? Considering the immense influence that the Gospel accounts have had on human thought and behavior, would you not demand convincing proof if someone wanted to cast doubt on their authenticity? (-This goes for other religions as well, so Shiva is by this definition/analogy existing God ?
Not attacking against the gospels, just the reasoning.)


QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER

♦ Could the Gospels be a masterful invention?

Robert Funk, the founder of the Jesus Seminar, says: “Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ‘marketed the Messiah’ to make him conform to Christian doctrine that evolved after the death of Jesus.” [/I](-Very biased opinion one might think ?) While the Gospels were being written, however, many who had heard Jesus’ sayings, had observed his deeds, and had seen him after his resurrection were still alive. They did not charge the Gospel writers with any form of fraud (-And we know this how ?)

Consider the death and resurrection of Christ. Not only do the Gospels contain reliable accounts of Jesus’ death and resurrection but so does the apostle Paul’s first canonical letter to Christians in ancient Corinth. He wrote: “I handed on to you, among the first things, that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures; and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that he appeared to upward of five hundred brothers at one time, the most of whom remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep in death. After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles; but last of all he appeared also to me as if to one born prematurely.” They were custodians of historical facts regarding the life of Jesus.
(-From that point on Gospels are history, of course...)

The inventiveness alleged by modern critics is not found in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Rather, it appears in documents of the second century*C.E. So certain unscriptural narratives about Christ were produced when an apostasy from true Christianity was developing among communities alienated from the apostolic congregation.—Acts 20:28-30.

♦ Could the Gospels be legends?

Author and critic C. S. Lewis found it difficult to view the Gospels as mere legends. “As a literary historian I am perfectly convinced that whatever the Gospels are, they are not legends,” he wrote. They are not artistic enough to be legends(-Where goes the line, if that was what they were after ?). . . . Most of the life of Jesus is unknown to us, and no people building up a legend would allow that to be so.” It is also interesting that although noted historian H. G. Wells did not claim to be a Christian, he acknowledged: “All four [Gospel writers] agree in giving us a picture of a very definite personality; they carry the . . . conviction of reality.” H.G. Wells, a creator of fiction disassociating the Gospel accounts as fiction. (-Did he give any reasoning how did he come to such conclusion ?)

Consider an instance when the resurrected Jesus appeared to his disciples. A good legend maker would likely have had Jesus stage a spectacular comeback, deliver a momentous speech, or be bathed in light and splendor. Instead, the Gospel writers simply describe him as standing in front of his disciples. Then he asked: “Young children, you do not have anything to eat, do you?” (John 21:5) Scholar Gregg Easterbrook concludes: “These are the sorts of touches that suggest a genuine account, not myth-building.” (-Thats if you are not building myth that such a passage would serve the myth) lol ;)

The accusation that the Gospels are legends also stumbles on the strict rabbinic method of teaching that was in fashion during the time of the writing of the Gospels. That method adhered closely to learning by rote—a memorizing process using routine or repetition. This favors the accurate and careful rendering of Jesus’ sayings and works as opposed to the creation of an embellished version. (I'll be posting that in another thread) (-And still the Gospels do contradict each other ?)

♦ If the Gospels were legends, could they have been compiled so quickly after the death of Jesus?(-It would take 4 guys to do it in this case, they arent that long books.)

According to available evidence, the Gospels were written between the years 41 and 98 C.E. Jesus died in the year 33*C.E. This means that the accounts of his life were put together in a comparatively short time after his ministry ended. This poses a tremendous obstacle to the argument that the Gospel narratives are mere legends. (-That is if you believe the authors.)

Time is needed for legends to develop. Take, for example, the Iliad and the Odyssey by the ancient Greek poet Homer. Some hold that the text of those two epic legends developed and became stabilized over hundreds of years. What about the Gospels? (-How come that there is 1,200 Christian organizations in North America, it has developed for sure.)

In his book Caesar and Christ, historian Will Durant writes: “That a few simple men should . . . have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels. After two centuries of Higher Criticism the outlines of the life, character, and teaching of Christ, remain reasonably clear, and constitute the most fascinating feature in the history of Western man.”

♦ Were the Gospels later edited to fit the needs of the early Christian community?

Some critics argue that the politics of the early Christian community caused the Gospel writers to edit the story of Jesus or add to it. However, a close study of the Gospels shows that no such doctoring took place. If Gospel accounts concerning Jesus were altered as a result of first-century Christian intrigue, why do negative remarks about both Jews and Gentiles still appear in the text?

A case in point is found at Matthew 6:5-7, where Jesus is quoted as saying: “When you pray, you must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I say to you, They are having their reward in full.” Clearly, this was a condemnation of Jewish religious leaders. Jesus further said: “When praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations [the Gentiles] do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words.” By quoting Jesus in this way, the Gospel writers were not trying to win converts. They were simply recording statements actually made by Jesus Christ.

There is much more. Consider also the Gospel accounts regarding the women who visited Jesus’ tomb and saw that it was empty. (Mark 16:1-8) According to Gregg Easterbrook, “in the sociology of the ancient Middle East, testimony by women was considered inherently unreliable: for instance, two male witnesses were sufficient to convict a woman of adultery, while no woman’s testimony could convict a man.” Indeed, Jesus’ own disciples did not believe the women! (Luke 24:11) It is thus most unlikely that such a story would have been deliberately invented.

The absence of parables in the episle and in the book of Acts is a strong argument that those in the Gospels were not aserted by early Christians but were spoken by Jesus himself. Additionally, a careful comparison of the Gospels with the epistles reveals that neither Paul’s words nor those of other writers of the Greek Scriptures were artfully reworded and ascribed to Jesus. If the early Christian community had done such a thing, we should expect to find at least some of the material from the epistles in the Gospel accounts. Since we do not, we can surely conclude that the Gospel material is original and authentic. (an epistle meaning a formal letter)

♦ What about seeming contradictions in the Gospels?

Critics have long claimed that the Gospels are full of contradictions. Historian Durant sought to examine the Gospel accounts from a purely objective standpoint—as historical documents. Though he says that there are seeming contradictions in them, he concludes: “The contradictions are of minutiae [trivial details], not substance; in essentials the synoptic gospels agree remarkably well, and form a consistent portrait of Christ.”

Seeming contradictions in Gospel accounts are often easily resolved. To illustrate: Matthew 8:5 says that “an army officer came to [Jesus], entreating him” to cure a manservant. At Luke, we read that the officer “sent forth older men of the Jews to [Jesus] to ask him to come and bring [the] slave safely through.” The officer sent the elders as his representatives. Matthew says that the army officer himself entreated Jesus because the man made his request through the elders, who served as his mouthpiece. This is just one example showing that alleged discrepancies in the Gospels can be resolved.

What of the claims of higher critics that the Gospels do not meet the criteria of real history? Continues Durant: “In the enthusiasm of its discoveries the Higher Criticism has applied to the New Testament tests of authenticity so severe that by them a hundred ancient worthies—e.g., Hammurabi, David, Socrates—would fade into legend. Despite the prejudices and theological preconceptions of the evangelists, they record many incidents that mere inventors would have concealed—the competition of the apostles for high places in the Kingdom, their flight after Jesus’ arrest, Peter’s denial . . . No one reading these scenes can doubt the reality of the figure behind them.”-How is that, those couldnt be a metaphors of something else because...?)

WHAT IS YOUR CONCLUSION?

-No final conlcusion yet, suspicious to say at least.

After considering the foregoing points, what do you think? Is there real, convincing proof that the Gospels are mere myth? Many find the questions and doubts raised about the authenticity of the Gospels to be shaky and unconvincing. Classifying the accounts of Jesus as myth and legend runs counter to how they are represented and recieved in ancient times. The existence of these accounts are positive indications of the historical value. Being centuries removed it would be most difficult to offer true detractions to it's testimony. But we all form our own opinions.

I am continuing to do research on this topic as the forums continues to bring the topic to light. An open persepective and objective consideration of the facts are prefered as are all other intelligent commentary.


-You are welcome, gotta study more the subject before commenting more.
 
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-The influence of the Gospels should have no bearing on their historicity.

-This:
They did not charge the Gospel writers with any form of fraud.

Contradicts with this:
...apostasy from true Christianity was developing among communities

The people that wrote and compiled the orthodox collection of gospels would have considered the opinions of the "apostates" to be heretical. Already we see disagreement about what Jesus' life and death meant. The orthodox put a label on those who disagreed with them, effectively shutting them up. I wonder how much actual violence was involved.

-Overall, I think your analysis is more religious than scholarly.
 
A simple answer: no.

If someone wants to claim the Gospels as fact it is THEY who are making the assertion and the onus of proof is upon them to provide the necessary evidence.

And if they wish to assert the performance of the miracles within the Bible as described, they need to provide very good evidence indeed.

The Roman / Greek pantheon of Gods were also the basis and inspiration for the civilised European world - so you would have us believe these as more than mere fiction on this basis?
Or is it solely because the Gospels have had "a good press" since their writing in 100 AD or so, and have become so widespread that you think they are more deserving?

And the fact that they contain "timeless truths" is mostly irrelevant, as there is not a single idea in the Gospels that really goes beyond "do as you would have done to yourself".

So you're basically onto a loser in these forums with your approach - as no rational person would start with the assumption that they are truth, merely on the bases you have provided.

So - try starting from the assumption that they are fiction - and work upwards based on actual evidence, rather than trying to start at your claim and ask for it to be shot down.

It's your opinion Sarkus but I can't agree with where you're placing the burdeon of proof. Hardly anything in any ancient is actually provable. You see it's not I "claiming" that the gospels are history. The gospels themselves present themselves as historical. So I see it as if you're going to assert against the source documents implication of validity it would do to have a valid reason why.

-Just some counter questions included in your post.



-You are welcome, gotta study more the subject before commenting more.


Thanks, I 'll definitely consider them tonight. And I certainly appreciate your foot work.
 
-The influence of the Gospels should have no bearing on their historicity.

-This:

Contradicts with this:

The people that wrote and compiled the orthodox collection of gospels would have considered the opinions of the "apostates" to be heretical. Already we see disagreement about what Jesus' life and death meant. The orthodox put a label on those who disagreed with them, effectively shutting them up. I wonder how much actual violence was involved.

-Overall, I think your analysis is more religious than scholarly.


Apostasy occured only after the last of the apostles had died. Intresting note: This was predicited.

In anycase it's not a contradiction to say the people at the time found no fault with the writings vs...after when behavior toward those teaching and writing become subjective to the point where they are today.

To bolster my "religious perspective" or spirituallity as you see it I've given numerous scholarly points to illistrate. And they're are many more.
 
That isn't true. Mary Magdalene had quite a different interetation of the resurrection than the other apostles. The truth is the gospels contain a little bit of history, and a lot of creative interpretation.
 
She felt her vision of Jesus was not literal, and that anyone could cultivate it. It seems likely that the orthodoxy would be against such a notion, since they wanted to claim sole authority to decide what is true, on the basis of apostolic succession. Mary's vision would form a decentralized theology on the basis of personal revelation, and so rob the church of political power.
 
I am not sure any of those writings existed anywhere near the time Jesus was alive. None of them was even written by the apostles, or anyone who knew Jesus personally, so far as we know.

As for no one charging them with fraud...how would they? They people who heard Jesus speak likely never heard the early versions of the Gospels. There were no printing presses, no Internet, and no one to cry "fraud" to other than your friends. Jesus did not preach to an incredibly literate crown in general, so the ones most likely to make the charge are least likely to have recorded the charge.

So far as I know, know one who knew Jesus ever renounced gnostic teachings as "fraud" either, nor would I have expected them to.

The Bible that exists today is an interpretation of Jesus' life and teachings, and it may or may not be the one He would have sanctioned. That, there is no objective way to ever know.

There were sizable "Christian" communities that rejected the divinity of Jesus at the same time the gospels were being written, and they had their gospels as well. In fact, even within the gospels we have the sermon on the mount (Matthew) and the sermon on the plain (Luke), which many scholars would tell you are likely two versions of the same event, happening in two different locations. How? Because one or both of the gospel writers got the setting wrong and each set forth the sermon itself in his own way. What mattered to them was not the historical accuracy of the sermon, but the message it conveyed.

There are references in the Gospels to historical events and people, and then there are references to plainly ahistorical ones (like the census of "all the inhabited earth", which never happened...and even if there were a more limited census, that did not happen near the time of Jesus' birth, and never would have required that Mary or Joseph leave Nazareth...).

Clearly the gospel writers were seeking to convey the message of Jesus, but there's no evidence that they held complete historical accuracy to be a major virtue. In fact these were writers who took on the names of the apostles, because writing under the name of a more famous, well-regarded person was a common thing in those days, which suggests a bit of a "marketing" mindset, rather than a scholarly one.
 
Ever see Roshomon? People can witness the same event and see different things. The apostles were like students, there is no guarantee any of them understood Jesus as he intended.
 
Critics have long claimed that the Gospels are full of contradictions.

It is seemingly the case, from people in the tomb to when and how judas died to jesus' own last words. For now we can forego these things. Sure, one of the witnesses had counting difficulties, I get it.

What is worth looking at are the extraordinary claims:

l1.jpg


What we have here is an example indicative of Chinese whispers and "legend" making. The birth of a superhero right before your eyes.

The problem here of course is that we now have to dismiss all of them bar one as giving inaccurate information. That is certainly not a good start when someone declares something as true.

Please, explain the diagram.
 
I have not found that scriptural quote spidergoat.
I'm however not well versed in the orthodox Christian teachings. They are mostly traditional and contradictory. Rarely do they stand eye to eye with what is written. Policitical Power is a common goal in Christendom and continues down to our day. Maintaining that control requires that we simply not ask Why or how but merely trust it blindly. I for one don't intend to preceed onto that particular course.
 
Lets not draw impropper conclusions.

According to the dictionary a contradicition is much different from inacurracy.
A contradiction should require a clear an direct opposition to a subject point.
Omiting contrary to popular belief is not in itself a contradiction.

We can put the participants on trial. Testimony is more difficult to trial. As a result we know perspective, which is a limited angle of view, differs from person to person. In a court of law we can not assume a will full contradictionor opposition of this level simply because of omission in testimony. This does not represent the requirement in my eyes for "contradiction" which is defined a opposition between two conflicting forces or ideas.


Asking a number of people the number of people at a concert will result in varying numbers. But it's more than just that. Because we are speaking of angels. We can not merely assume what one saw all saw.

To comment on the graph. I would need exstenive explanation as to it's meaning.
I look forward to it. Right now I'm off to pay bills
 
Lets not draw impropper conclusions.

According to the dictionary a contradicition is much different from inacurracy.

I'm certain it is. You will notice, if you read my post, that I did not assert that anyone be dismissed for contradiction, (I said we will skip them), but that they must be dismissed for being inaccurate. Why is it that as time passes more extraordinary events are added just like one would expect from any fictional story given a case of chinese whispers and some imagination?

We can put the participants on trial.

Actually you can't put anyone on trial. You can't even show that any of the authors were sane, or not snorting something they shouldn't be snorting. You have nothing but that very same text to claim that very same text as true. It's like a man writing down that he has a 13 inch penis and you accepting the claim on the basis that he wrote it. Who in their right mind would accept such idiocy?

In a court of law we can not assume a will full contradictionor opposition of this level simply because of omission in testimony

I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Whether that's because I am drunk or you type shit is unknown. I'll let you know in the morning. However....

If in a court of law the first witness said there were 2 people and the second witness said there were 4 people, a distinct problem would arise.

Asking a number of people the number of people at a concert will result in varying numbers.

What the hell, let's come up with an average... 60,000? I dunno but It's probably around there. Why are you trying to compare that to a maximum of 4 people? We're not talking concerts, this is nothing difficult.

I find your argument quite laughable. That nobody can be expected to count 60,000 heads accurately has what bearing on a maximum of 4 people?

Because we are speaking of angels. We can not merely assume what one saw all saw.

Nobody even agrees on that.

To comment on the graph. I would need exstenive explanation as to it's meaning.

That's self evident, even my daughter grasped the concept. She's 8.
 
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Well Saquist, I’m not sure what research you are really doing on this forum. There are few here who understand Christianity at all, and many who hate it with a passion. They even think Christianity is evil and violent, as if there were Christian terrorist bombers running around killing people.

Most people here are very closed minded, who presuppose there can be no God, no Jesus other than fiction, no resurrection, no apostles. No amount of reason, logic or historical extra-Biblical evidence will sway them. Everything has to be a giant conspiracy.

The reason everything must be a conspiracy is worth discussing. All of the New Testament authors were murdered for their beliefs (save for one). They each had the opportunity to recant, or die. They chose death. No one would choose death for a fictional story. Therefore the anti-Christians have to prove the entire thing was made up, none of these people existed. Even the extra-Biblical references by Tacitus, Josephus and others, from where we get most of our knowledge of ancient Rome, must be corrupted when it came to Jesus. It becomes a conspiracy larger and more impossible than even the “911 Truthers” and the controlled demolition of the towers.

Ironically some of the most anti of Christians believe in the imploded towers myth. But I digress.

Every Biblical contradiction that might exist has been found and argued over for almost 2000 years. No contradictory archaeological evidence has been found. Those who believe have no issue with these contradictions as they all have easy explanations. Those who don’t want to believe keep rehashing the old arguments over and over hoping to find new non-believers. The so-called contradictions I have looked at are non-issues. However, as the Bible is an “inspired” work of men, I would expect some inconsistencies. This is unlike the Qur’an which contains the Actual And Literal Perfect Word of God. One single contradiction in the Qur’an renders the whole thing suspect. Not so with the Bible.

Though I have looked at the various claims of atheists, ultimately, religion cannot be understood intellectually. Christianity is the only religion I know of were believers are asked to form an actual personal relationship with God. Christians feel that relationship and know God exists because they feel His presence in a very real and profound way. That, Saquist, is why people believe the Bible is true.
 
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Bart D Ehrman's book: "Misquoting Jesus" shows us how the new testament came about. It should be a compulsory read for all christians.

The early gospels had no names. There is no evidence of when they were written and the fact that apologists and critics didn't quote from them even mid-second century suggest that they may not have been written till the end of the second century. We have a few verses that ended up in John, from 125 AD, then nothing till the third century when suddenly we have virtually whole books from the gospels. Why?

Outside of the bible, there is no evidence Jesus existed (other than known christian forgeries) and maybe the same with his disciples. It is strange in a time when the average person lived only 30 years that manuscripts were not written immediately to preserve the information but according to what is believed, people who did not know Jesus wrote it decades later.

Many religions which christians accept are all false often quickly grew up from nothing, gained huge numbrs of followers, even people willing to die for these false religions. Yet christians somehow believe there religion is different to these.
 
I doubt you will find anything about Mary's revelation in the scriptures.

That makes my job a bit more difficult.

I'm certain it is. You will notice, if you read my post, that I did not assert that anyone be dismissed for contradiction, (I said we will skip them), but that they must be dismissed for being inaccurate. Why is it that as time passes more extraordinary events are added just like one would expect from any fictional story given a case of chinese whispers and some imagination?

Ah...that's where you're going. Well we are talking about things beyond normal human understanding. Should it be entirely unexpected when speaking of the power that it is suggesting.
 
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