The Gays issue. Are we in the West just another Iran?

Greatest I am

Greatest I am

Valued Senior Member
The Gays issue. Are we in the West just another Iran?
In terms of hypocrisy that is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_3RUwAJ_MI&feature=related

We seem to condemn Iran’s denigration and discrimination of Gays and women while at the same time forgetting that we do not give full equality to our own women and Gays and are indeed fighting these notions.

Are we just pots calling the kettle black in these issues while hypocritically doing the same as Iran and other countries who we are trying to preach to in terms of human rights?

I think that we are. We do not walk our talk so can we actually expect others to take our advise and lead when we ourselves do not live up to our own expectations?

Can we expect them to change their views which in a sense are more honest than our own?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/11...paign=Feed:+rss/cnn_latest+(RSS:+Most+Recent)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHqwBDVeVTM

Are Christians and Muslims world wide no better than the Iranian Muslims?
Are we just hypocrites and homophobes and chauvinists at heart?
Or,
Are we just bullies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x_BV2yUr-M

Regards
DL
 
Forgive me: how are their views - the outright execution of gay people - more honest than increasing secularisation and liberalization in the West?
 
It takes time to raise the consciousness of an entire civilization. Those of us who are trying, also need to keep a leash on our leaders to try and keep them from attacking those leaders. It's difficult elect a Kennedy and end/prevent a Vietnam for the people all at the same time. Especially when they are all shopping and watching football. Those of us who are paying attention do what we can.
 
Don't Ask Don't Tell is really tabloid politics. Same-sex marriage and abortion also fall into those galvanizing, contentious, but ultimately useless dilemmas that exist mostly so people who think in black and white terms have something to be outraged about.

Don't Ask Don't Tell who or how many own that mortgage, or what breaches of contract were committed to get them there.
Don't Ask Don't Tell whether that latest terrorist was for real, or the FBI made them out of whole clothe.
Don't Ask Don't Tell how laughable the See Something Say Something campaign is.

There's a lot of Don't Ask Don't Tell phenomena in the air lately, and the least important of them, about which there is much ado, is the militarized homo.
 
GeoffP said:
Forgive me: how are their views - the outright execution of gay people - more honest than increasing secularisation and liberalization in the West?
Click to expand...

They walk their talk even as we do not like their talk.
in the West, we do not. We talk liberal yet even the DADT repeal only passed by 2/3. A dismal showing.

We need to clean up our own act before pushing our talk on others.

Regards
DL
 
The basic difference

Greatest I Am said:

We seem to condemn Iran’s denigration and discrimination of Gays and women while at the same time forgetting that we do not give full equality to our own women and Gays and are indeed fighting these notions.
Click to expand...

There is something of a notable functional difference.

In the U.S., gays are fighting for the right to marry one another.

In Iran, they are fighting for the right to live.

It's a stark contrast. American issues are worth fighting for, but I'm glad these are the issues we can fight about.
 
Greatest I am said:
The Gays issue. Are we in the West just another Iran? In terms of hypocrisy that is. We seem to condemn Iran’s denigration and discrimination of Gays and women while at the same time forgetting that we do not give full equality to our own women and Gays and are indeed fighting these notions. Are we just pots calling the kettle black in these issues while hypocritically doing the same as Iran and other countries who we are trying to preach to in terms of human rights? I think that we are. We do not walk our talk so can we actually expect others to take our advise and lead when we ourselves do not live up to our own expectations?
Click to expand...
You haven't thought about this issue very long or very deeply if the treatment of gays in Iran and in the USA don't seem qualitatively different to you.

Sure we have a way to go in America, but geeze, gays can live openly and proudly in almost any big city. They even have their own cable TV network: LOGO. They can get good jobs with the government and any large corporation, and quite a few smaller ones. They're welcome in our universities and perhaps the majority of our churches.

This isn't perfect, but they don't have to hide and they don't have to worry about being the target of violence if they stay out of the Bible Belt--and who the hell wants to go there anyway?

I submit that this is qualitatively better than the lives they live in Iran.
Can we expect them to change their views which in a sense are more honest than our own?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what the virtue is in being honest if you're just going to be an honest asshole.
Are Christians and Muslims world wide no better than the Iranian Muslims?
Click to expand...
I don't know enough about Muslims, but the vast majority of the Christians I know regard gays with feelings ranging from tolerance to love.
Are we just hypocrites and homophobes and chauvinists at heart?
Click to expand...
Americans differ from one another just as much as any people. Some of us are those things, but in my experience the majority are not. We're not perfect, but we're not as big assholes as the leaders of Iran. Who, BTW, don't necessarily represent the attitudes of the majority of their people. It's more of a theocracy than a democracy, after all. We don't call our country "The Christian Republic of America."
 
Tiassa said:
There is something of a notable functional difference.

In the U.S., gays are fighting for the right to marry one another.

In Iran, they are fighting for the right to live.

It's a stark contrast. American issues are worth fighting for, but I'm glad these are the issues we can fight about.
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFO1b9I-u5Q&feature=player_embedded

See how few of the so called good are actually fighting.
For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.
Complacency is a killer of good.

Regards
DL
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
You haven't thought about this issue very long or very deeply if the treatment of gays in Iran and in the USA don't seem qualitatively different to you.

Sure we have a way to go in America, but geeze, gays can live openly and proudly in almost any big city. They even have their own cable TV network: LOGO. They can get good jobs with the government and any large corporation, and quite a few smaller ones. They're welcome in our universities and perhaps the majority of our churches.

This isn't perfect, but they don't have to hide and they don't have to worry about being the target of violence if they stay out of the Bible Belt--and who the hell wants to go there anyway?

I submit that this is qualitatively better than the lives they live in Iran.I'm not sure what the virtue is in being honest if you're just going to be an honest asshole.I don't know enough about Muslims, but the vast majority of the Christians I know regard gays with feelings ranging from tolerance to love.Americans differ from one another just as much as any people. Some of us are those things, but in my experience the majority are not. We're not perfect, but we're not as big assholes as the leaders of Iran. Who, BTW, don't necessarily represent the attitudes of the majority of their people. It's more of a theocracy than a democracy, after all. We don't call our country "The Christian Republic of America."
Click to expand...

Bush did. LOL.

We agree on most points friend but--

" I don't know enough about Muslims, but the vast majority of the Christians I know regard gays with feelings ranging from tolerance to love."

Yes, they are tolerated as sinners and somehow less human than theists.
Further, tolerate is not what is required. It is acceptance as just another form of normal that is required.

We tolerate what we dislike. We accept what we love and or respect. All Gays deserve what we give all others.

Regards
DL
 
"The gays" are not a class of people you point to- they are a class in their own right. They are all over the place!

"Equality for gays! (just keep your hands off my ass)!"
 
Greatest I am said:
. . . . tolerate is not what is required. It is acceptance as just another form of normal that is required.
Click to expand...
Tolerance is indeed required, when you don't have it. In Iran they will settle for tolerance and make acceptance their next goal.

Never discount the importance of Maslow's Hierarchy. Over there, they're still fighting to climb beyond Step 1, Survival, or perhaps Step 2, Security. Over here they're progressing well on Step 3, Love, and are fighting toward Step 4, Esteem.

Few of us Americans know what it's like to struggle for security, and only a tiny segment of the population has fought for survival. Anyone who has will quickly disabuse you of the notion of equality between the USA and Iran on this issue.
 
Every country has the right to make it's own rules.. Every country has the right to sovereignty. Because the big 3 religions are so similar so too their definitions of right and wrong.

America is a free society, freedom of religon and freedom of life style
Many the Middle Eastern Countries are no completely free. They tend to be dominated by theocratic guidelines even at the governement level. American's tend to think of their way of life as superior but that is HIGHLY subject. American's make many sacrifices for this level of freedom,
 
Saquist said:
Every country has the right to make it's own rules.. Every country has the right to sovereignty.
Click to expand...

Those would be nations (or maybe, nation-states), not countries (which are simply physical territories that coincide with states).

But where do these rights come from, and on what basis do they outweigh individual rights?

Saquist said:
Because the big 3 religions are so similar so too their definitions of right and wrong.
Click to expand...

Hinduism is so evidently similar to Christianity and Islam? And why are we leaving Buddhism off of the list? Should be "big 4 religions," if you ask me.

And you have the causation backwards. The major religions are similar because the social conventions that enshrine are similar in the first place.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Tolerance is indeed required, when you don't have it. In Iran they will settle for tolerance and make acceptance their next goal.

Never discount the importance of Maslow's Hierarchy. Over there, they're still fighting to climb beyond Step 1, Survival, or perhaps Step 2, Security. Over here they're progressing well on Step 3, Love, and are fighting toward Step 4, Esteem.

Few of us Americans know what it's like to struggle for security, and only a tiny segment of the population has fought for survival. Anyone who has will quickly disabuse you of the notion of equality between the USA and Iran on this issue.
Click to expand...

We use different words to mean the same basic thing but to say that the West is at such a higher level when the government and churches have institutionalized hate is droll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_fAYl4Th4

To thinks so would make us complacent when we should not be.
For evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

Regards
DL
 
Saquist said:
Every country has the right to make it's own rules.. Every country has the right to sovereignty. Because the big 3 religions are so similar so too their definitions of right and wrong.

America is a free society, freedom of religon and freedom of life style
Many the Middle Eastern Countries are no completely free. They tend to be dominated by theocratic guidelines even at the governement level. American's tend to think of their way of life as superior but that is HIGHLY subject. American's make many sacrifices for this level of freedom,
Click to expand...

True but if we believe in freedom of religion as you say, then why are we trying to tell Iran how to use their religion?

Catch 22.

I do not believe in freedom of religion when it leads to the following.

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1

They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOqGhcwwE1s

For evil to grow my friend, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can.

You will know that even in the U S with the J W transfusion issue, they are not allowed to follow their religion.

I do not disagree with bringing them to heel. Do you?

Regards
DL
 
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