Hi all,
Sometimes it seems that there is an insurmountable gulf of irrationality when trying to persuade dissenters to your view. And maybe there is, however it would be wise to remember that every person has what they think are objective rational reasons for their beliefs.
Even those who can only respond to logical inquiries towards their ideas with the most distasteful verbal venom; they too have their own self-validated "reasons". We also tend to believe that the others who dissagree with us have only emotional reasons for their beliefs...Why else would they disagree? What Hubris!
In other words the atheists rest assured that they are objective and scientific whilst their opponents, the theists and deists, are choosing to rest on emotional crutches and faulty premises at that.
In turn, the theists and deists are confident that they have objective reasons and perhaps scientific data for their beliefs whislt their detractors, the atheists, are clutching to an emotional need for obtuse cosmic independance or a spiritual unwillingness to allow the universal mystical truth to unfold around them and fill them up. Be that truth a Judeo/Christian god or a god that is undefinable yet knowable(the mystics)!
To view reality as if god is real has ITS own particular brand of sensations, feelings, and rationals. To view reality as if god was just a mind dependent construct with no basis in the "real" world has ITS own brand of sensations, feelings and rationals.
I can recall a conversation with some Jehovah's Witnesses (some of the nicest and most well dressed people I have ever met) where we were debating evolution. I can remeber one man, Tim, saying that when he looked around at the biosphere all he could see was the lord's amazing work and creation. I said when I looked around I saw the profound interplay of natural selection, great lengths of time and the dazziling machinery of physics and chemistry.
Imagine for just one second what it must be like for Tim or for me! I'm not suggesting that everything is relative, goodness no! I am no relativist. I am simply asking all of you here who are interested in a thought experiment to imagine that you see the world through your opponent's eyes. I have been on both sides of the fence in the god debate. I know how to look at the world as if god is real and is if the concept is just an interesting philosophical premise. It is rather like snapping back and forth between a gestalt image - you know, the one in all Psychology 101 text books where you can see either the old haggish women or the young resplendent lady, depending on what you choose to focus on.
If you can do this experiment then perhaps you might garner a deeper understanding of your oppents position. At least you will be able to feel some of their "reasons". For me being able to do this helped me refine my points when debating those who disagreed with me. I left behind the attacks on their choices and instead examined their ideas and the facts they claimed supported them. No more ad hominems.
To be sure there we those who couldn't do the same. They called me names or told me that I was beyond talking to because I had already made up my mind. (I thought the fact that I had made up my mind was the reason they jumped into a debate with me in the first place. They told me they were there to witness for the unbelievers and then ten minutes later I was not able to be saved because I was an unbeliever!!!)
The point I am trying to make and that I hope is not lost on any of you is that when debating each other try to avoid name calling and especially try to avoid remarks that compartmentalize people into "types" of thinkers or "levels" of understanding or "hierarchies" of awarness. If you think someone is wrong or that I am wrong please show some courtesy and explain your reasons. If you cannot do this and all you can do is spit your anger and frustration all over a thread then I hope you will be ignored. I know I will ignore you. That's the only way to make someone who thrives on negative attention go away. Some very bad spelling, grammar and a complete lack of introspection make some people's posts quite tedious to try and comprehend, let alone expect a sincere and honest reply from. I pity those people whose attempts at communication are sabotaged by their own unwillingness to grow up.
I have been lurking around this website for a couple of weeks and I have read many of the threads. I have identified certain individuals that are I am to be weary of and those that are to be sought out for a good dialogue/debate. But the one thing that makes me hesistant about putting my ideas forth is that too many people seem to not listen to each other. Questions are raised, answers are posted and yet there is an enormous gap between what was asked and what was answered. How frustrating... I hope this changes.
If the truth matters and you believe in being able to demarcate what is bogus from what is genuine then do not fear where the data and the logical chains of argument may lead you...maybe to god... maybe to just an indifferent universe... maybe to something else.
Anyway, I just wanted to throw this out and introduce myself to all of you! Oh, and happy thanksgiving! I believe in Turkey and Stuffing and I vote!
Sometimes it seems that there is an insurmountable gulf of irrationality when trying to persuade dissenters to your view. And maybe there is, however it would be wise to remember that every person has what they think are objective rational reasons for their beliefs.
Even those who can only respond to logical inquiries towards their ideas with the most distasteful verbal venom; they too have their own self-validated "reasons". We also tend to believe that the others who dissagree with us have only emotional reasons for their beliefs...Why else would they disagree? What Hubris!
In other words the atheists rest assured that they are objective and scientific whilst their opponents, the theists and deists, are choosing to rest on emotional crutches and faulty premises at that.
In turn, the theists and deists are confident that they have objective reasons and perhaps scientific data for their beliefs whislt their detractors, the atheists, are clutching to an emotional need for obtuse cosmic independance or a spiritual unwillingness to allow the universal mystical truth to unfold around them and fill them up. Be that truth a Judeo/Christian god or a god that is undefinable yet knowable(the mystics)!
To view reality as if god is real has ITS own particular brand of sensations, feelings, and rationals. To view reality as if god was just a mind dependent construct with no basis in the "real" world has ITS own brand of sensations, feelings and rationals.
I can recall a conversation with some Jehovah's Witnesses (some of the nicest and most well dressed people I have ever met) where we were debating evolution. I can remeber one man, Tim, saying that when he looked around at the biosphere all he could see was the lord's amazing work and creation. I said when I looked around I saw the profound interplay of natural selection, great lengths of time and the dazziling machinery of physics and chemistry.
Imagine for just one second what it must be like for Tim or for me! I'm not suggesting that everything is relative, goodness no! I am no relativist. I am simply asking all of you here who are interested in a thought experiment to imagine that you see the world through your opponent's eyes. I have been on both sides of the fence in the god debate. I know how to look at the world as if god is real and is if the concept is just an interesting philosophical premise. It is rather like snapping back and forth between a gestalt image - you know, the one in all Psychology 101 text books where you can see either the old haggish women or the young resplendent lady, depending on what you choose to focus on.
If you can do this experiment then perhaps you might garner a deeper understanding of your oppents position. At least you will be able to feel some of their "reasons". For me being able to do this helped me refine my points when debating those who disagreed with me. I left behind the attacks on their choices and instead examined their ideas and the facts they claimed supported them. No more ad hominems.
To be sure there we those who couldn't do the same. They called me names or told me that I was beyond talking to because I had already made up my mind. (I thought the fact that I had made up my mind was the reason they jumped into a debate with me in the first place. They told me they were there to witness for the unbelievers and then ten minutes later I was not able to be saved because I was an unbeliever!!!)
The point I am trying to make and that I hope is not lost on any of you is that when debating each other try to avoid name calling and especially try to avoid remarks that compartmentalize people into "types" of thinkers or "levels" of understanding or "hierarchies" of awarness. If you think someone is wrong or that I am wrong please show some courtesy and explain your reasons. If you cannot do this and all you can do is spit your anger and frustration all over a thread then I hope you will be ignored. I know I will ignore you. That's the only way to make someone who thrives on negative attention go away. Some very bad spelling, grammar and a complete lack of introspection make some people's posts quite tedious to try and comprehend, let alone expect a sincere and honest reply from. I pity those people whose attempts at communication are sabotaged by their own unwillingness to grow up.
I have been lurking around this website for a couple of weeks and I have read many of the threads. I have identified certain individuals that are I am to be weary of and those that are to be sought out for a good dialogue/debate. But the one thing that makes me hesistant about putting my ideas forth is that too many people seem to not listen to each other. Questions are raised, answers are posted and yet there is an enormous gap between what was asked and what was answered. How frustrating... I hope this changes.
If the truth matters and you believe in being able to demarcate what is bogus from what is genuine then do not fear where the data and the logical chains of argument may lead you...maybe to god... maybe to just an indifferent universe... maybe to something else.
Anyway, I just wanted to throw this out and introduce myself to all of you! Oh, and happy thanksgiving! I believe in Turkey and Stuffing and I vote!
. So, welcome to sciforums!