The fox and chicken paradox

Ted Grant II

Ted Grant II

Registered Senior Member
As everybody knows, foxes love chickens. Given that a fox could eat many chickens, it follows that there must be many more chickens than foxes (assuming that's all they eat).

If you ask a theologian why there are foxes (or any other carnivore), you might get the answer that the sin of Adam and Eve caused to world to be "broken", they brought sin into the world and that's why foxes eat chickens. Apparently, before the "fall", foxes used to be vegetarians and probably eat grass.

If you study the anatomy of carnivores and herbivores , you will find significant differences. Some herbivores have complex digestive systems because their food is so poor. In addition, herbivores have to eat all day long, whereas carnivores can spend much of their time sleeping, because their food is so rich. There are obvious advantages of meat as a source of food, but it does involve that ungodly business of killing. I cannot believe that the sin of Adam and Eve could be the cause of the ugly business of carnivore anatomy and behavior.
I just don't see the connection.

Given the facts of life, it seems difficult to believe that a single god designed both foxes and chickens.
Imagine his planning ideas. He wanted foxes to be fast, cunning and have the equipment for killing chickens.
On the other hand, he wanted chickens to detect the scent of a fox, run away or perhaps fly away, so he equipped them accordingly. In other words, he had contrary objectives.

In order to escape from this paradox, I propose that there must be two gods.
A chicken god, who is nice and a fox god who is nasty.

This easily explains all the puzzles in creation.

The chicken god makes pretty sunsets and rainbows.
The fox god makes earthquakes and malaria.

Unfortunately, I like chicken with rice, so I don't know which god to worship.
 
Ted Grant II said:
As everybody knows, foxes love chickens. Given that a fox could eat many chickens, it follows that there must be many more chickens than foxes (assuming that's all they eat).

If you ask a theologian why there are foxes (or any other carnivore), you might get the answer that the sin of Adam and Eve caused to world to be "broken", they brought sin into the world and that's why foxes eat chickens. Apparently, before the "fall", foxes used to be vegetarians and probably eat grass.

If you study the anatomy of carnivores and herbivores , you will find significant differences. Some herbivores have complex digestive systems because their food is so poor. In addition, herbivores have to eat all day long, whereas carnivores can spend much of their time sleeping, because their food is so rich. There are obvious advantages of meat as a source of food, but it does involve that ungodly business of killing. I cannot believe that the sin of Adam and Eve could be the cause of the ugly business of carnivore anatomy and behavior.
I just don't see the connection.

Given the facts of life, it seems difficult to believe that a single god designed both foxes and chickens.
Imagine his planning ideas. He wanted foxes to be fast, cunning and have the equipment for killing chickens.
On the other hand, he wanted chickens to detect the scent of a fox, run away or perhaps fly away, so he equipped them accordingly. In other words, he had contrary objectives.

In order to escape from this paradox, I propose that there must be two gods.
A chicken god, who is nice and a fox god who is nasty.

This easily explains all the puzzles in creation.

The chicken god makes pretty sunsets and rainbows.
The fox god makes earthquakes and malaria.

Unfortunately, I like chicken with rice, so I don't know which god to worship.
Click to expand...

Worship just the Chicken on Monday Wednesday and Friday

Worship just the Rice on Tuesday Thursday and Saturday

Not the gods

just Chicken

just Rice

Rest on Sunday

:)
 
Beer w/Straw said:
Aren't vegetarians evil then by raising defenseless plants in killing fields just to eat them?

If so, I guess I'm worshiping the banana God right now.
Click to expand...

Agree most plants are defenseless

Some have prickles or are poisonous but that entails some of the plants to be sacrificed for the remaining to survive

And of course the active Venus fly trap

How about we genetically modified them up in size?

First up to bunny rabbit and groundhog size

Then up to fox size

There are more than 500 varieties of banana plants in the world. The most common kinds are Dwarf Cavendish, Valery, and Williams Hybrid bananas.

Other types of bananas include Apple and a small red banana called the Red Jamaica

https://australianbananas.com.au/Pages/all-about-bananas/banana-varieties

Well you have a nice choice of gods

:)
 
what's evil/corrupt is the 'whole' system altogether. consider the rules of the game.

the best one can do is use that awareness to live as ethically as possible within the framework we did not choose or design.
 
Last edited:
Ted Grant II said:
As everybody knows, foxes love chickens. Given that a fox could eat many chickens, it follows that there must be many more chickens than foxes (assuming that's all they eat).

If you ask a theologian why there are foxes (or any other carnivore), you might get the answer that the sin of Adam and Eve caused to world to be "broken", they brought sin into the world and that's why foxes eat chickens. Apparently, before the "fall", foxes used to be vegetarians and probably eat grass.

If you study the anatomy of carnivores and herbivores , you will find significant differences. Some herbivores have complex digestive systems because their food is so poor. In addition, herbivores have to eat all day long, whereas carnivores can spend much of their time sleeping, because their food is so rich. There are obvious advantages of meat as a source of food, but it does involve that ungodly business of killing. I cannot believe that the sin of Adam and Eve could be the cause of the ugly business of carnivore anatomy and behavior.
I just don't see the connection.

Given the facts of life, it seems difficult to believe that a single god designed both foxes and chickens.
Imagine his planning ideas. He wanted foxes to be fast, cunning and have the equipment for killing chickens.
On the other hand, he wanted chickens to detect the scent of a fox, run away or perhaps fly away, so he equipped them accordingly. In other words, he had contrary objectives.

In order to escape from this paradox, I propose that there must be two gods.
A chicken god, who is nice and a fox god who is nasty.

This easily explains all the puzzles in creation.

The chicken god makes pretty sunsets and rainbows.
The fox god makes earthquakes and malaria.

Unfortunately, I like chicken with rice, so I don't know which god to worship.
Click to expand...
Have you ever read "The Log of the Ark"? : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Log_of_the_Ark

A lot of your ideas of how theologians might argue about carnivorous creatures seem rather similar to that story.

It was a children's book, of course.:biggrin:
 
Ted Grant II said:
killing. I cannot believe that the sin of Adam and Eve could be the cause of the ugly business of carnivore anatomy and behavior.
I just don't see the connection.
Click to expand...
That's where you draw the line with the plausibility of Adam and Eve and Eden?

The rest of it's all fine, but you balk at ... foxes?

o_O
 
Ted Grant II said:
If you ask a theologian why there are foxes (or any other carnivore), you might get the answer that the sin of Adam and Eve caused to world to be "broken", they brought sin into the world and that's why foxes eat chickens. Apparently, before the "fall", foxes used to be vegetarians and probably eat grass.
Click to expand...
That would be garbage theology.
 
Beer w/Straw said:
Aren't vegetarians evil then by raising defenseless plants in killing fields just to eat them?

If so, I guess I'm worshiping the banana God right now.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Just about all organisms grow by consuming other organisms and the dividing line at which that is seen to become cruel is inevitably arbitrary.

The whole thing is a childish straw man (or Aunt Sally, pace Yazata), since no serious theology of the Fall argues anything like this. But this poster is a bit obsessed. Did you see his recent thread about nailing chickens (dead I think) to pieces of wood? That was rather hilarious. I recommend it.
 
Seaman said:
This is just a guess. Given that the universe is finite but unbounded, the number of religions is probably very large, but there is only one God
Click to expand...
We have a 333 trillion guess

We have a 1 guess

Any other guesses out there?

Don't be shy the guessing game is open to all

:)
 
Ted Grant II said:
Given the facts of life, it seems difficult to believe that a single god designed both foxes and chickens.
Imagine his planning ideas. He wanted foxes to be fast, cunning and have the equipment for killing chickens.
On the other hand, he wanted chickens to detect the scent of a fox, run away or perhaps fly away, so he equipped them accordingly. In other words, he had contrary objectives.
Click to expand...
I'm not a Christian but this seems odd to me. I have a desk. In that desk I have a stapler AND a staple remover. It seems like two people must use this desk, but they don't. I have a bathroom with no windows and a living room with lots. I have a bike and a car. I have a cat and a dog. I have a garden with flowers, but also frogs. I mean, perhaps God wanted a complicated environment. Perhaps he wanted nature to reflect to humans some of their fallibilities or options for attitude. Perhaps......and I am sure there could be many other explanations.

Of course I love William Blake and he asked this question in a wonderful manner - note the second to last stanza, last two lines...

The Tyger

BY WILLIAM BLAKE
Tyger Tyger, burning bright,
In the forests of the night;
What immortal hand or eye,
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies.
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand, dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, & what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain,
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp,
Dare its deadly terrors clasp!

When the stars threw down their spears
And water'd heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

Tyger Tyger burning bright,
In the forests of the night:
What immortal hand or eye,
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?
 
sowhatifit'sdark said:
I'm not a Christian but this seems odd to me. I have a desk. In that desk I have a stapler AND a staple remover. It seems like two people must use this desk, but they don't. I have a bathroom with no windows and a living room with lots. I have a bike and a car. I have a cat and a dog. I have a garden with flowers, but also frogs. I mean, perhaps God wanted a complicated environment. Perhaps he wanted nature to reflect to humans some of their fallibilities or options for attitude. Perhaps......and I am sure there could be many other explanations.
Click to expand...
^^^
Having a stapler & staple remover does not make it seem 2 people use the desk. Same with having a cat & a dog & all the rest.

Perhaps god is powerful yet stupid and/or insane.

<>
 
Ted Grant II said:
As everybody knows, foxes love chickens. Given that a fox could eat many chickens, it follows that there must be many more chickens than foxes (assuming that's all they eat).

If you ask a theologian why there are foxes (or any other carnivore), you might get the answer that the sin of Adam and Eve caused to world to be "broken", they brought sin into the world and that's why foxes eat chickens. Apparently, before the "fall", foxes used to be vegetarians and probably eat grass.

If you study the anatomy of carnivores and herbivores , you will find significant differences. Some herbivores have complex digestive systems because their food is so poor. In addition, herbivores have to eat all day long, whereas carnivores can spend much of their time sleeping, because their food is so rich. There are obvious advantages of meat as a source of food, but it does involve that ungodly business of killing. I cannot believe that the sin of Adam and Eve could be the cause of the ugly business of carnivore anatomy and behavior.
I just don't see the connection.

Given the facts of life, it seems difficult to believe that a single god designed both foxes and chickens.
Imagine his planning ideas. He wanted foxes to be fast, cunning and have the equipment for killing chickens.
On the other hand, he wanted chickens to detect the scent of a fox, run away or perhaps fly away, so he equipped them accordingly. In other words, he had contrary objectives.
Click to expand...

Or "the fall" was only from Adam and Eve's innocence, to them becoming capable of moral judgement. The animals never changed.
And if "designed", animals form a chain of energy conversion, from less to more efficient sources.
 
Vociferous said:
Or "the fall" was only from Adam and Eve's innocence, to them becoming capable of moral judgement. The animals never changed.
And if "designed", animals form a chain of energy conversion, from less to more efficient sources.
Click to expand...

I believe you fundamentally understand the metaphor, however, ....Moral judgement about what?

What changed is our Intelligence, IMO, but that does not imply "moral judgement". It implies that we divorced ourselves from the then natural state and were able to create our own environment, more or less divorced from the natural state. Which prompted the next metaphor of being kicked out from Eden. IMO.
 
Vociferous said:
Or "the fall" was only from Adam and Eve's innocence, to them becoming capable of moral judgement. The animals never changed.
And if "designed", animals form a chain of energy conversion, from less to more efficient sources.
Click to expand...
^^^
IF god is moral & must send most humans to hell, evidently they did not become capable of moral judgement.

<>
 
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