The explanation of morality, ethics, and opinions.

[Warrior61]

morality |m??ral?t?; mô-| noun ( pl. -ties) principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.

ethics |?e?iks| plural noun 1 [usu. treated as pl. ] moral principles that govern a person's or group's behavior : Judeo-Christian ethics. • the moral correctness of specified conduct : the ethics of euthanasia. 2 [usu. treated as sing. ] the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles.

opinion |??piny?n| noun a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge : I'm writing to voice my opinion on an issue of great importance | that, in my opinion, is dead right. • the beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing : the changing climate of opinion. • ( opinion of) an estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something : I had a higher opinion of myself than I deserved.

Despite religious perspective and bias these are three constant points on each person's mind and also three undisputable truths(of course the definitions debatable), so where did they come from? What purpose do they serve? What neccesity do they have? Is there a set standard or limit them? Are we fooling ourselves, or being fooled by some all-powerful jokester?

Your sitting, most likely, there wondering what in the world is this guy trying to pull out? I could lie and say I am just curious but I am truly hoping for some great answers and debates. If you just want to take your time to pick on me that will be helpful, after all it is an opinion. Mostly I believe I am trying to get to the heart of stuff here.
Thank you, His Son,
><>Warrior61<><

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Ethics began in the time of the first sedentary humans. These things you metion were created in order to keep people from stealing your food, raping their daughters and killing neighbors.

 

[Baron Max]

Ethics began in the time of the first sedentary humans. These things you metion were created in order to keep people from stealing your food, raping their daughters and killing neighbors.

Agreed. And it also helped to form a cohesion between people of the same tribes ...a cohesion that allowed for them to co-exist and to work together to accomplish goals that a person couldn't do alone.

Baron Max

 

[Warrior61]

Ethics began in the time of the first sedentary humans. These things you metion were created in order to keep people from stealing your food, raping their daughters and killing neighbors.

Evolutionary speaking we are animals, correct? So I see on tv these lions chasing after zebras, or other animals, and picking one out and killing it. No one thinks that is evil or wrong but what if I was to pop up in a marathon and pick one dude out and just tackle him right there in the street, or our ecosystem, and just start chowin down, would that be wrong?

 

[Warrior61]

Agreed. And it also helped to form a cohesion between people of the same tribes ...a cohesion that allowed for them to co-exist and to work together to accomplish goals that a person couldn't do alone.

Baron Max

Relationships!? Thanks for bringing that up. Why do humans long/need relationships? Also why do we have lonelyness and "heartache?"

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Evolutionary speaking we are animals, correct? So I see on tv these lions chasing after zebras, or other animals, and picking one out and killing it. No one thinks that is evil or wrong but what if I was to pop up in a marathon and pick one dude out and just tackle him right there in the street, or our ecosystem, and just start chowin down, would that be wrong?

Yes we are animals.
But animals live happy in the wild, they are more intelligent than us in that aspect. Animals don´t get depressed or commit suicide; only by iteraction with humans.

Animals follow the divine plan, which is the same plan that created life on this planet. We don´t, we only follow our egos and society´s plan. An awaken person is he who follows the divine plan, is more animal than human you know.

I don´t see how: "pick one dude out and just tackle him right there in the street, or our ecosystem, and just start chowin down" is following the divine plan.

The root of all evil is ignorance.

 

[Warrior61]

Yes we are animals.
But animals live happy in the wild, they are more intelligent than us in that aspect. Animals don´t get depressed or commit suicide; only by iteraction with humans.

Negative on that one. Animals have emotions with or without human interaction.

Animals follow the divine plan, which is the same plan that created life on this planet. We don´t, we only follow our egos and society´s plan. An awaken person is he who follows the divine plan, is more animal than human you know.

Divine plan? Why does the divine plan allow us to go against it? How did it create life? Whats the story?

I don´t see how: "pick one dude out and just tackle him right there in the street, or our ecosystem, and just start chowin down" is following the divine plan.

The question was how is it wrong in comparison to animals doing it.

The root of all evil is ignorance.

Define evil.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Negative on that one. Animals have emotions with or without human interaction.

Have you seen animal planet man? I don´t see Tigers cutting their own throats with their claws and shit.

Divine plan? Why does the divine plan allow us to go against it? How did it create life? Whats the story?

There is the caos theory, how can everything lead to caos when a tree borns from a seed?
If nature would lead to caos, then the tree simply wouldn´t born.

That is the divine plan as I see it. The creation of life. What it takes for the existence to create something, to change something in nature, throught millions of years of evolution; it takes us amazingly little to do ourselves, that is the marvel of being humans. To have the ability to change nature as we want to, we can make a Garden of Eden out of this world. We have that potential.
The only thing is, this is a double-edged sword. Free will you know.

Ammong all the caos in the Universe, life found a way to exist. It even existed so long that it created us humans. But as we have free will, and use it wrong, we are going against the same principles from which we evolved.

The question was how is it wrong in comparison to animals doing it.

Animals do it unconsciously, is something we can´t do. Because if we murder someone, we would know what we are doing.

How can you not see the miracle of a single person existing? I mean, if you would take it from scratch, from bacteria, this "divine plan" created humans. And we are going against this, we are making this world so it goes back to bacteria again. We are doing backwards evolution.

 

[Warrior61]

Stop picking and choosing my questions and answer them please.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Stop picking and choosing my questions and answer them please.

I answered them, if you didn´t get it, then you can ask me to elaborate, I would be glad.
If you don´t agree, that´s ok.

What question didn´t I answer?

 

[Warrior61]

Have you seen animal planet man? I don´t see Tigers cutting their own throats with their claws and shit.

You haven't been watching long enough. I bet if one of those tigers or even yourself tries to get their food they are going to brawl.

That is the divine plan as I see it. The creation of life. What it takes for the existence to create something, to change something in nature, throught millions of years of evolution; it takes us amazingly little to do ourselves, that is the marvel of being humans. To have the ability to change nature as we want to, we can make a Garden of Eden out of this world. We have that potential.
The only thing is, this is a double-edged sword. Free will you know.

So how would we create this Eden? In other words what is stopping us?

Ammong all the caos in the Universe, life found a way to exist. It even existed so long that it created us humans. But as we have free will, and use it wrong, we are going against the same principles from which we evolved.

How can a set thing, or divine plan, set on one track, which you would have to label "right" (or good?) create something apart from the plan?

Animals do it unconsciously, is something we can´t do. Because if we murder someone, we would know what we are doing.

You do realize you said we are animals. So that sentence falls apart.

How can you not see the miracle of a single person existing? I mean, if you would take it from scratch, from bacteria, this "divine plan" created humans. And we are going against this, we are making this world so it goes back to bacteria again. We are doing backwards evolution.

How do you know we are not progressing? You keep assuming we are on the "right track."

 

[Warrior61]

LoL I need to apologize about the question thing. I misread the posts. I am sorry about that.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

You haven't been watching long enough. I bet if one of those tigers or even yourself tries to get their food they are going to brawl.

lol, I know, I´m talking about their own throats, as in suicide. They are certainly capable of suicide, why don´t they do that? Like humans do...

So how would we create this Eden? In other words what is stopping us?

By non-judging at all, what is stoping us are our preconceived notions of good and evil.

How can a set thing, or divine plan, set on one track, which you would have to label "right" (or good?) create something apart from the plan?

Accidents happen, like Dinosaurs had to become extinct for us to exist. If that asteroid wouldn´t have hit Earth, then there would probably be a reptile with a big brain reasoning what would have happened if that asteroid hit the Earth.

We are probably heading to mankind´s destruction, but not by accident like Dinosaurs, but because of our stupidity. If we become extinct, another animal could probably take our place, maybe use what they have in a smarter way than we do.

You do realize you said we are animals. So that sentence falls apart.

Not really, because we are animals, but we are conscient too. That is something unique in humans, at least in planet Earth. Our brain is our advantage and our barrier to hapiness at the same time.

How do you know we are not progressing? You keep assuming we are on the "right track."

Over-population, global warming, jails filled up with people, wars everywere, etc. How is that following the same principles on which life was created? We are destroying life, heading to humanity´s doom.

 

[Warrior61]

lol, I know, I´m talking about their own throats, as in suicide. They are certainly capable of suicide, why don´t they do that? Like humans do...

Why don't they wipe their butt? Seriously is that your argument for emotions in animals? Ever heard of a dog dying from sadness? Ever seen an animal get angry? Oh, yea I have heard of an animal commiting suicide. The dog thing.

By non-judging at all, what is stoping us are our preconceived notions of good and evil.

So judging is an evil? So you are slowly but surely trying to say that evil is blocking us correct?

Accidents happen, like Dinosaurs had to become extinct for us to exist. If that asteroid wouldn´t have hit Earth, then there would probably be a reptile with a big brain reasoning what would have happened if that asteroid hit the Earth.

Its not really a divine plan is it? So the plan is not perfect?

We are probably heading to mankind´s destruction, but not by accident like Dinosaurs, but because of our stupidity. If we become extinct, another animal could probably take our place, maybe use what they have in a smarter way than we do.

Again so what is the goal? That is a very sad statement.

Not really, because we are animals, but we are conscient too. That is something unique in humans, at least in planet Earth. Our brain is our advantage and our barrier to hapiness at the same time.

We are animals but we are different because we can experience happiness and are conscient? Please define happiness and conscience.

Over-population, global warming, jails filled up with people, wars everywere, etc. How is that following the same principles on which life was created? We are destroying life, heading to humanity´s doom.

Well if your statement about the destruction of mankind is true then jails and war is protection right? Slow down and think first. Honestly. This is not sarcasm. How do you know the "divine plan" does not require humans to die?

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

I think we are going in circles. The "divine plan" is manifested in all creation. But destruction needs to exist in order for creation to do so as well. If destruction wouldn´t exist, everything would already be created, and there would be no motion, no energy. Wouldn´t that be weird?

The main question here is: Do you want to contribute to creation of life, or do you want to contribute to destruction? We certainly are capable of choosing.


I never said animals don´t experience happiness, I said just the opposite of that. But the difference between us and known animals is that we are capable of questioning these things.

Animals live a happy life, except when humans fuck up their lifes. Like trap them in a cage, or make a dog commit suicide like you said.
But an animal in the wild lives a happy life, saying is not being concerned with stupid future goals or a lame past. Animals live in the present, like a newborn child.
Society starts "molding" our perception of things ever since we are born. We create an ego to survive in society.

Like you act different when in the bathroom alone or in a press conference full of people. In the press conference, you behave according to the standards set by others to survive in society, this is your ego.

I say judging is bad, because nobody is who to tell if what you did is good or wrong. Jesus is a standard of a "good guy" most people tend to have, but Jesus was only himself, fulfilling his destiny in his life, nor good or bad, but himself. "Good and bad" are standards set by society that are just lame.

 

[SnakeLord]

Despite religious perspective and bias these are three constant points on each person's mind and also three undisputable truths(of course the definitions debatable), so where did they come from? What purpose do they serve? What neccesity do they have? Is there a set standard or limit them? Are we fooling ourselves, or being fooled by some all-powerful jokester?

Morality in general is actually self serving. If you are nice to someone else you get what you want. Try being mean to your wife and not ending up on the sofa.

You will find in any group of people that certain members have 'talents' that you lack. If you kill them/steal from them etc etc it's very unlikely they'll help you when you need it.

Evolutionary speaking we are animals, correct? So I see on tv these lions chasing after zebras, or other animals, and picking one out and killing it. No one thinks that is evil or wrong but what if I was to pop up in a marathon and pick one dude out and just tackle him right there in the street, or our ecosystem, and just start chowin down, would that be wrong?

You missed a fundamental difference.. You said:

"A lion chases after zebras.."

You then tried to liken that to a man killing another man.

The difference comes down to species and food. A lion rarely chases down another lion, (which would equate to a man chasing down a man), and it eats the kill unlike humans hunting animals which very often serves no purpose other than a head on a wall.

Would it be wrong? Ultimately no from my moral perspective. It's subjective.

 

[Baron Max]

Animals live a happy life, ....
But an animal in the wild lives a happy life, ...

Truly an over-simplification ...and worse, using it to make some point. Animals in the wild are NOT always "happy" ...if they can't find food or water, I'm sure they're not "happy". A gazelle being killed by a lion is probably not too happy, either. Animals in the wild do NOT live a happy life!

Society starts "molding" our perception of things ever since we are born. We create an ego to survive in society.

Which came first? Humans alone simply can't survive in the wild ...they need other humans in order to survive, which necessitates "society". And that very concept means living in the society and getting along with others. The "getting along" is basically conforming to certain standards of behavior. That is NOT society molding the individual, it's the individual seeking to conform to the society's rules and norms. Big difference.

I say judging is bad, because nobody is who to tell if what you did is good or wrong. .... "Good and bad" are standards set by society that are just lame.

Most people in a society don't consider the standards of behavior "lame". But if you do, why do you stay in that society? Leave. Go out into the wilderness and live the life that you want ...and see how long your survive. But complaining and whining about it is doing nothing but wasting your time and effort ...not to mention ours, too.

Baron Max

 

[Warrior61]

I think we are going in circles. The "divine plan" is manifested in all creation. But destruction needs to exist in order for creation to do so as well. If destruction wouldn´t exist, everything would already be created, and there would be no motion, no energy. Wouldn´t that be weird?

The main question here is: Do you want to contribute to creation of life, or do you want to contribute to destruction? We certainly are capable of choosing.


I never said animals don´t experience happiness, I said just the opposite of that. But the difference between us and known animals is that we are capable of questioning these things.

Animals live a happy life, except when humans fuck up their lifes. Like trap them in a cage, or make a dog commit suicide like you said.
But an animal in the wild lives a happy life, saying is not being concerned with stupid future goals or a lame past. Animals live in the present, like a newborn child.
Society starts "molding" our perception of things ever since we are born. We create an ego to survive in society.

Like you act different when in the bathroom alone or in a press conference full of people. In the press conference, you behave according to the standards set by others to survive in society, this is your ego.

I say judging is bad, because nobody is who to tell if what you did is good or wrong. Jesus is a standard of a "good guy" most people tend to have, but Jesus was only himself, fulfilling his destiny in his life, nor good or bad, but himself. "Good and bad" are standards set by society that are just lame.

So it is lame to label murder a bad thing? Also let me explain the dog situation. I have an aunt who had two dogs. They lived and played together. Well one died. The other dog did not want to eat or do anything. So shortly after the other dog died the next one died. So how did humans do that? And the main question is how do we have right and wrong and are there absolutes?

Also there is no way you can know for a fact that we are "progressing." You mention we have to create life but then state for the divine plan to take place there must be destruction so who says we are not supposed to be destroying. No circles just zig zags.

 

[Warrior61]

Morality in general is actually self serving. If you are nice to someone else you get what you want. Try being mean to your wife and not ending up on the sofa.

So it has nothing to do with selflessness? Also is there such thing as unconditional love?

You missed a fundamental difference.. You said:

"A lion chases after zebras.."

You then tried to liken that to a man killing another man.

The difference comes down to species and food. A lion rarely chases down another lion, (which would equate to a man chasing down a man), and it eats the kill unlike humans hunting animals which very often serves no purpose other than a head on a wall.

Would it be wrong? Ultimately no from my moral perspective. It's subjective.

My point was animals killing animals. Either way you said it wasn't wrong. So murder is not wrong? I am confused.

Sidenote: I am sorry for leaving the previous debate like that I have been super busy. I am more than willing to bring it back up so just let me know if yo want to. I learned alot and think we made great progress. Also how are you and your family doing?

Thank you, His Son,
><>Warrior61<><

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Truly an over-simplification ...and worse, using it to make some point. Animals in the wild are NOT always "happy" ...if they can't find food or water, I'm sure they're not "happy". A gazelle being killed by a lion is probably not too happy, either. Animals in the wild do NOT live a happy life!

Do you see gazelles jumping from cliffs and commit suicide? That is what I´m talking about, humans do it all the time.

Which came first? Humans alone simply can't survive in the wild ...they need other humans in order to survive, which necessitates "society".

Humans can survive in the wild:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2275/how_to_survive_in_the_wild.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child#Documented_cases
http://www.feralchildren.com/en/children.php?tp=0
http://www.feralchildren.com/en/children.php?tp=1

And who is talking about not living with humans? That is almost impossible in this human overpopulated world.

And that very concept means living in the society and getting along with others. The "getting along" is basically conforming to certain standards of behavior. That is NOT society molding the individual, it's the individual seeking to conform to the society's rules and norms. Big difference.

And why do children don´t like this rules? Why do children first cry at this, not knowing what they are being told to do?

Whos rules of behaviour?? Certainly not God´s or nature´s.

Most people in a society don't consider the standards of behavior "lame". But if you do, why do you stay in that society? Leave. Go out into the wilderness and live the life that you want ...and see how long your survive. But complaining and whining about it is doing nothing but wasting your time and effort ...not to mention ours, too.

Baron Max

Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.
You are intimidated against what troubles your society-molded ego.

I am complaining because I see society just heading to its end, and ignorance is everywere. Some people just don´t learn from past mistakes.