The Exorcism stories were veiled insults against Roman legions

RileyWins

Registered Senior Member
One of the hot topics for Atheists is the NT's description of Jesus as an exorcist, a man who had power to command the invisible spirits that take possession of humans and cause them to act in erractic ways. Pat Robertson says such spirits often force decent Christians to participate in orgies and extramarital sex. (Hmmm) One of the first stories about Exorcism appears in Mark: So they arrived on the other side of the lake in the country of the Gerasenes.

(Note: Gerasa - the place where the Gerasenes live - is about thirty miles south-east of the Sea of Galilee, and there is no other large body of water around. Matthew shifts the scene to Gadara, which is only six miles from the Sea of Galilee. continuing...)

As Jesus was getting out of the boat, a man in the grip of an unclean spirit (Note: Greek word is pneuma, implying breath or movement of air, something unseen) rushed out to meet him from among the tombs where he was living.

It was no longer possible for any human being to restrain him even with a chain.

Indeed he had frequently been secured with fetters and lengths of chain, but he had simply snapped the chains and broken the fetters in pieces. No one could do anything with him.

All through the night as well as in the daytime he screamed among the tombs and on the hillside, and cut himself with stones.

Now, as soon as he saw Jesus in the distance, he ran and knelt before him, yelling at the top of his voice, "What have you got to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? For God’s sake, don’t torture me!"

For Jesus had already said, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

Then he asked him, "What is your name?" "My name is legion," he replied, "for there are many of us."

Then he begged and prayed him not to send "them" out of the country.

A large herd of pigs was grazing there on the hillside, and the, evil spirits implored him, "Send us over to the pigs and we’ll get into them!"

So Jesus allowed them to do this, and they came out of the man, and made off and were into the pigs. The whole herd of about two thousand stampeded down the cliff into the lake and was drowned.

The swineherds took to their heels and spread their story in the city and all over the countryside.

Then the people came to see what had happened. As they approached Jesus, they saw the man who had been devil-possessed sitting there properly clothed and perfectly sane—the same man who had been possessed by "legion"—and they were really frightened.

Those who had seen the incident told them what had happened to the devil-possessed man and about the disaster to the pigs.

Then they began to implore Jesus to leave their district.

As he was embarking on the small boat, the man who had been possessed begged that he might go with him.

But Jesus would not allow this. "Go home to your own people," he told him, "and tell them what the Lord has done for you, and how kind he has been to you!"

So the man went off and began to spread throughout the Ten Towns the story of what Jesus had done for him. And they were all simply amazed.
_________

Matthew contains a similar story with two victims of possession, but relocates the incident to Gadara.

Autor William Harwood in his book "Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus" suggests that this exorcism might have been a late addition to the original Gospel of Mark, after the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 Ad, and the demon called "Legion" was only a veiled reference to Rome's famous Tenth Legion:

"Since the fall of the city a few months earlier [in 70 C.E.], Jerusalem had been occupied by the Roman Tenth Legion [X Fretensis], whose emblem was a pig. Mark's reference to about two thousand pigs, the size of the occupying Legion, combined with his blatant designation of the evil beings as Legion, left no doubt in Jewish minds that the pigs in the fable represented the army of occupation. Mark's fable in effect promised that the messiah, when he returned, would drive the Romans into the sea as he had earlier driven their four-legged surrogates."

Gerasa was one of the few Hellenic cities which did not fall upon and destroy its Jewish inhabitants after the uprising began. Those who wanted to leave were actually conducted to safety

According to Flavius Josephus, War of the Jews, Bk II, Ch XIII, Sn 5 Gadara was the scene of a a great massacre of Jewish rebels by the Roman troops in 69 C.E. Like the pigs, the fleeing rebels were driven into the water.

"Vespasian sent Placidus with 500 horse and 3000 foot to pursue those who had fled from Gadara..."

(Sn 4)

"Placidus, relying on his cavalry and emboldened by his previous success, pursued the Gadarenes, killing all whom he overtook, as far as the Jordan. Having driven the whole multitude up to the river, where they were blocked by the stream, which being swollen by the rain was unfordable, he drew up his troops in line opposite them. Necessity goaded them to battle, flight being impossible... Fifteen thousand perished by the enemy’s hands, while the number of those who were driven to fling themselves into the Jordan was incalculable; about two thousand two hundred were captured..."

- Flavius Josephus, War of the Jews, Bk IV, Ch 7

So, after all the arguments over the illogic of having a modern rite of exorcism in the Catholic Church, could turn out Jesus NEVER exorcised anyone and the stories were just discreet ways of Jewish Christians thumbing their noses at the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem.

Opinions?
 
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One of the hot topics for Atheists is the NT's description of Jesus as an exorcist, a man who had power to command the invisible spirits that take possession of humans and cause them to act in erractic ways. Pat Robertson says such spirits often force decent Christians to participate in orgies and extramarital sex. (Hmmm)
Demons cannot force anyone to do anything unless
if they let them.

(Note: Gerasa - the place where the Gerasenes live - is about thirty miles south-east of the Sea of Galilee, and there is no other large body of water around. Matthew shifts the scene to Gadara, which is only six miles from the Sea of Galilee. continuing...)
Well this doesn't make sense. Geresene
territory includes the south east of the sea of Galilee not
just the city. Also Mark's Gospel was written before 70AD because it has referances to the temple but not its
destruction. Jesus did not command
the pigs possesed by demons into the sea.
This was clearly the demons' decision to exploit
the town so that they could get the response
"Then they began to beg him to
leave their district." The pigs were also
a unclean animal for the Jews.

So, after all the arguments over the illogic of having a modern rite of exorcism in the Catholic Church, could turn out Jesus NEVER exorcised anyone and the stories were just discreet ways of Jewish Christians thumbing their noses at the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem.
This is not the only exorism in the bible.
The exorcism of the Catholic church is not modern, but
started from the beginning.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Also Mark's Gospel was written before 70AD because it has referances to the temple but not its destruction. .
_______

Okay, there's another thread where I posted the best scholarship about the origin of Mark.

Mark was written. Then it was edited and re-edited several times before the version we read in the NT canon was produced.

The question is, Was the story about Jesus meeting a man possessed by multiple demons named "legion" added to the Gospel of Mark AFTER 70 AD as a rebuttal to the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem?

Was Jesus really an exorcist?

Or was the story of Jesus being an exorcist just an exercise in creative insults, with the demonic spirits being named "Legion" because they represented the Romans? And in the story, Jesus gets to triumph over the "legion" - something that never happened in real life.

No, the point is, it's an insult to ask people to give their lives for this "story" about Jesus, because the "story" was invented around the time of 65 to 80 AD and has virtually nothing to do with the real Jesus. It's all designed to support an End of the World cult, a group that believed the Second Coming would take place before the year 200 AD. That's why so many things in the Gospels don't make sense in the year 2003 - until you know why they're there.
 
Mark was written. Then it was edited and re-edited several times before the version we read in the NT canon was produced.
I would not be suprised if a scribe knew of a specific
story and wanted to tell it then perhaps he would
have added it into Mark.

Or was the story of Jesus being an exorcist just an exercise in creative insults, with the demonic spirits being named "Legion" because they represented the Romans? And in the story, Jesus gets to triumph over the "legion" - something that never happened in real life.
I do not see Jesus trying to start a rebellion here.
There is another part where Jesus says
give to Caesar what is Caesar's and Jesus warns
the disciples not to start a rebellion.

No, the point is, it's an insult to ask people to give their lives for this "story" about Jesus, because the "story" was invented around the time of 65 to 80 AD and has virtually nothing to do with the real Jesus. It's all designed to support an End of the World cult, a group that believed the Second Coming would take place before the year 200 AD. That's why so many things in the Gospels don't make sense in the year 2003 - until you know why they're there.
Jesus said that "nation must rise against nation" etc.
I do not doubt that some of his disciples thought that the end
would come soon like in 100 or so years but no one
gets condemned for being prepared.
 
Okay RIley....that doesnt mean the excorisms were insults agasint romans.It could be a coincidence. And it is, excorisms actually happend.
 
Originally posted by edgar
Okay RIley....that doesnt mean the excorisms were insults agasint romans.It could be a coincidence. And it is, excorisms actually happend.

______

Did the exorcisms actually happen?

That's up in the air.

Did Jesus actually perform exorcisms? Or was the whole idea of a demonic spirit...

Okay, take a step back. You're a member of a religious cult that has a core belief that the end of the world is at hand. You see the Temple of Jerusalem destroyed by Roman soldiers. As part of your beliefs, you have a prophecy that your Messiah is going to restore the Kingdom of Israel and sit on the throne and rule wisely. The Romans have pretty much proven that isn't going to happen. So what do you do?

I think they invented a story where Jesus confronted a demon named "legion" - what an incredible coincidence that the demon was named "legion" if my explanation isn't correct, isn't it? - and as part of the confrontation, the "legion" begged Jesus not to destroy them.

From the canon Gospel of Mark:

Jesus said, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

The possessed man knelt before Jesus, yelling at the top of his voice, "What have you got to do with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? For God’s sake, don’t torture me!"

Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

The possessed man replied, "My name is legion, for there are many of us."
_______

So, the "legion" pleads with Jesus not to torture them. And when Jesus spared it/their lives, the "legion" ran into the lake of Galilee and committed suicide.

It makes sense as the wish-fulfillment of a not-too bright End of the World cult member, who felt he had to write a story where a man who had been dead for 30 years had a confrontation with the Romans and defeated them soundly.

But it doesn't make much sense any other way.
 
I'm not sure what your point is. There have
been 1000s of exorcisms.
Legion has another meaning besides a roman army force.
It could mean "a very large number". You
should check and see the hebrew or
aramaic word it was translated from.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
I'm not sure what your point is. There have
been 1000s of exorcisms...
________________-

That's an interesting number. Thousands of exorcisms.

This sounds like the propoganda that Christianity puts out, with the bad result that some people actually believe there have been exorcisms of demonic spirits that have helped people.

Ain't so.

My point is a question. I wanted people's opinions.

We have two possible interpretations of the verses in Mark.

1) Jesus was an exorcist. He had his friends pretend to be possessed so he could cast out their demons. That's pretty much the only possible explanation for this account:

Mark 1:17
and Jesus said to them, 'Come ye after me, and I shall make you to become fishers of men;'and immediately, having left their nets, they followed him. And having gone on thence a little, he saw James of Zebedee, and John his brother, and they were in the boat refitting the nets, and immediately he called them, and, having left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, they went away after him.

(I put this in as a preface, to show that Jesus and John and James were working on their fishing nets and boats on the Sea of Galilee, and then the scene jumps to Capernaum - which means the story starting here at 1:21 could have been an entirely different story edited into the text from a different source, or it could have come from Peter's sermons to the early Roman church.)

Mark 1:21
And they go on to Capernaum, and immediately, on the sabbaths, having gone into the synagogue, he was teaching,
and they were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as having authority, and not as the scribes.

Mark 1:23
And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit, and he cried out,

Mark 1:24
saying, 'Away! what -- to us and to thee, Jesus the Nazarene? thou didst come to destroy us; I have known thee who thou art -- the Holy One of God.'

(This offers a lot of clues: even though Jesus has taken his friends to Capernaum, away from their fishing boats, when they go into the synagogue, they encounter a man who (a) knows Jesus by name (b) knows Jesus is from Nazareth (c) calls Jesus the "holy one of god" where everyone in the synagogue can hear him, and (d) pretends that this knowledge came from a demonic spirit which is possessing him. So, this whole thing is a charade to establish Jesus' reputation as a holy man, an exorcist - but did it actually happen? Or is it just wishful thinking by a scribe writing 30 years after Jesus died?)

Mark 1:25
And Jesus rebuked him, saying, 'Be silenced, and come forth out of him,'

Mark 1:26
and the unclean spirit having torn him, and having cried with a great voice, came forth out of him,

(If Jesus was trying to make a reputation, he couldn't take the chance of being seen as a man who couldn't control the demons. The demons had to obey him, the exorcism had to work - and boy, did it work. The demon "cried with a great voice and came forth out of the possessed man" - and HOW did that happen? Did anyone see the demon? Or did the victim start screaming and convulsing on the floor and then announce that his demon had departed? Con game! if I saw this happen today, I would have no problem saying it was a con game - and I've seen a lot of this stuff on TBN, the phony exorcisms, playing to the camera, making the gutteral growling noises so we "know" they're possessed by an evil demon.)

Mark 1:27
and they were all amazed, so as to reason among themselves, saying, 'What is this? what new teaching [is] this? that with authority also the unclean spirits he commandeth, and they obey him!'

Mark 1:28
And the fame of him went forth immediately to all the region, round about, of Galilee.

(SO, by performing these exorcisms, Jesus became famous.)

Mark 1:29
And immediately, having come forth out of the synagogue, they went to the house of Simon and Andrew, with James and John,

(Simon and Andrew lived in Capernaum. They had a house there. Does this help explain why the demon knew Jesus by name?)

Mark 1:30
and the mother-in-law of Simon was lying fevered, and immediately they tell him about her,

Mark 1:31
and having come near, he raised her up, having laid hold of her hand, and the fever left her immediately, and she was ministering to them.

Mark 1:32
And evening having come, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all who were ill, and who were demoniacs,

Mark 1:33
and the whole city was gathered together near the door,

(Once Jesus had a reputation as an exorcist, the "whole city" gathered near the door. That's how you got a rep in 30 AD, by casting out those demons in front of an audience. And if the demon threw its victim down to the floor and went into convulsions before it left, so much the better.)

Mark 1:34
and he healed many who were ill of manifold diseases, and many demons he cast forth, and was not suffering the demons to speak, because they knew him.

(And sometimes, Jesus ordered the demons not to speak, because the demons knew who Jesus was. Can't have much more credibility than having invisible demons know who you are.)


http://unbound.biola.edu

second possibility) None of this ever happened, and the exorcism account were total fabrications to insult the Romans. Because the Romans believed in exorcisms and demonic spirits more than the Jews.

That's my point. If Christianity began with a group of men pulling a con game, to create a reputation for Jesus as an exorcist, it would explain a lot.
 
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That's an interesting number. Thousands of exorcisms.

This sounds like the propoganda that Christianity puts out, with the bad result that some people actually believe there have been exorcisms of demonic spirits that have helped people.

Ain't so.
My point is a question. I wanted people's opinions.
http://www.truecatholic.org/devil.htm#blessedsacrament
1000s is a low number here. The Catholic
Church probably does 10 or more exorcisms a year and
multiplying that by 2000 years and you 20,000.
There have been cases of little children speaking
in foreign languages. I saw one the learning channel
a demon exorcism that envolved the entire family
and researchers friom fordham university.

What does TBN have to do with the Catholic Church? No one really believes in Benny Hinn do they?
 
If you don't pay your exorcist do you get repossessed? ;)

1994 -- In March, elementary school teacher Myra Obasi, 29, of Shreveport, La., was brought, bleeding from the eyes, to Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas by her two sisters, who eventually were charged with having gouged out Obasi's eyes with their fingers because they thought she was possessed by the spirit of her father. Detectives were unable to question Obasi for several hours because she refused to stop chanting, "Thank you, Jesus." In October, the sisters were released because Obasi refused to testify against them.

1995 -- In March, according to police, Kyung-A Ha, 25, was beaten to death by five members of the Emeryville, Calif., Jesus-Amen Ministries, who allegedly acted on a report by Ha's sister, Kelly, that Ha was possessed by demons. Kelly Ha, 21, told police after the death that there were several telltale signals of possession: "She couldn't sleep at night. She didn't talk much to people. And sometimes she was aggressive."

1996 -- Construction worker Thomas W. Passmore, 32, filed a lawsuit in April for $3.35 million against Sentara Norfolk (Va.) General Hospital and four doctors over the loss of his hand. Passmore admits to having cut off the hand because he believed it to be possessed by the devil and to having refused twice to allow doctors to reattach it. However, he claims the hospital was negligent in not asking his family to overrule his poor decision.

Source: NEWS of the WEIRD
 
I don't think you have to pay but I'm sure
if you were really possessed you might give
a donation. OK you found one
one case in a cult religion. Yes I consider
most of pentecostal christians a cult based
on proving your "saved" by mumbling in tongues.
The Catholic exorcism requires the advice of
psychologist before starting.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
http://www.truecatholic.org/devil.htm#blessedsacrament
...There have been cases of little children speaking
in foreign languages. I saw one the learning channel
a demon exorcism that envolved the entire family
and researchers friom fordham university.

What does TBN have to do with the Catholic Church? No one really believes in Benny Hinn do they?
______

On Monday nights, TBN used to run a program with Bob Larson, a minister who performed exorcisms on the program.

http://members.freespeech.org/boblarson/hank0197.htm

http://www.boblarson.org

Here's the thing about the exorcisms in the NT: the demons knew Jesus by name. They pleaded with Jesus not to cast them into the abyss.

It sounds like a con game. It sounds like Jesus got some of his buddies to pretend they were possessed, so Jesus could cast out the demons in front of an audience. Can't figure out any other way for the demons to know Jesus by name.

It strikes me as funny... if Jesus was a con man, if Jesus and all his friends were making his reputation as an exorcist by falling down on the ground and going into convulsions, and how many Christians have gotten on my case for NOT believing in this guy?
 
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It sounds like a con game. It sounds like Jesus got some of his buddies to pretend they were possessed, so Jesus could cast out the demons in front of an audience. Can't figure out any other way for the demons to know Jesus by name.
Jesus isn't just an exorcist he is God. These were
fallen spirits cursed by God who knew God and rejected
him.

I would not really trust anything on TBN. Half
of them are fanatical Benny Hinn type preachers.

For all I know this guy might be in control of
the evil spriits because he is one.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
Jesus isn't just an exorcist he is God. These were fallen
spirits cursed by God who knew God and rejected him.
Is Jesus God?

I would not really trust anything on TBN. Half of them
are fanatical Benny Hinn type preachers.

For all I know this guy might be in control of the evil
spriits because he is one.
Televangelists : The Pro Wrestlers of religion.
 

"But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God."

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Christ is both man and God at the same time.


"Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."

Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father.
Since the Father is God this is valid.
 
Originally posted by okinrus
... There have been 1000s of exorcisms. ...
Hi, had two questions
(1) have you ever seen a person "possessed" by a devil? Explain.
(2) Could you make a distinction between someone possessed and someone who is schizophrenic?

I was under the assumption the Catholic Church had come to an agreement that many (if not all) possession cases from the past must have been cases of mental illness.
 
Hi, had two questions
(1) have you ever seen a person "possessed" by a devil? Explain.
(2) Could you make a distinction between someone possessed and someone who is schizophrenic?
I have heard the devil of course but never seen
someone where I can say for certain that he/she
was possessed. I have never seen an exorcism.
I'm not qualified to make the distinction but here are some signs. A schizophrenic will not talk in foreign languages,
will not usually blasphemy sacred objects or be scared
of holy water, crucifixes. Beyond that you might
look for sharp mood changes, cancer, knowlege
of the future, and evil wisdom.

I was under the assumption the Catholic Church had come to an agreement that many (if not all) possession cases from the past must have been cases of mental illness.
Some early catholic authors blamed everything on
the demons. I believe that most early
christians thought that under the guise of demons, pagan gods could accomplish supernatural feat. Also some of the exorcisms are supernatural witnessed by large crowds. For example there is account of an exorcism that St. Dominic did where "at each Hail Mary that he and the people said together a large group of devils issued forth from the wretched man's body under the guise of red-hot coals."
 
Pat Roberston on demons

I want to see if I can find some juicy quotes about demonic possession from Pat.

Robertson: Demons are fallen angels. They are part of Satan's rebellion against God in heaven. According to the Bible, one-third of the angels followed Satan in this revolt against God and were cast to earth... when demonic entities possess a person, they often cause the individual to do strange things. ... Satan is not like God. He is not omnipresent. His power is limited and he has to be in various places in different times. Nevertheless, he is real. He is a malevolent being. ... when it is over, Satan will be bound and placed in a lake of fire from whence he will not be able to escape...


(Wow, what a great example for Science Fiction writers. The malevolent being who will be bound and placed in a lake of fire... vs. Anakin Skywalker fighting a duel with OB-1 and falling into a lake of burning lava. Did Lucas know about this story or what?)


Here's Pat Robertson on the End of the World, and why it is a cornerstone of his Christian faith:

http://www.cbn.com/partners/bringiton/EndTimes.asp


This is why Pat believes Heaven and Hell exist.

http://www.cbn.com/partners/bringiton/HellAndHeaven.asp

Robertson: Throughout the Bible there are scenes describing the seraphim, the "burning ones" that burn with their holiness, surrounding God's throne. We also read of the cherubim and the twerity-four elders that are throwing down their crowns before God. God is sitting in the midst of this, the firmament beneath Him, and the brilliance of gemstones sparkling in His presence. Heaven will be blinding in its beauty!
____________

Another reason I dislike Pat is this quote about Carl Sagan that I found on his website:


Robertson: God has not left Himself without a witness. The witness around us is the wonder of His creation and the inexplicable order ofit all. Certainly, we're surprised that someone like Carl Sagan would not have recognized that and said, "There must be something behind this:" But the wisdom of this world is insufficient to find God; it still takes faith. The word in Greek for "wisdom" is sophia, from which we get our word philosophy; phil -o-sophia, the love of wisdom. When Paul got into Athens, he played head-garnes with some of the local philosophers. On Mars Hill, the local gathering spot for intellectuals, Paul said, "I see that you are a very religious people, and I noticed your statue to the Unknown God. Now, the Unknown God is the one I am going to declare to you." He approached them from an intellectual standpoint, and most debaters would say that he won his points. Yet interestingly, to the best of my knowledge, he didn't win one convert from that debate in Athens.


http://www.cbn.com/700club/askpat/BIO_032603.asp
 
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