The End of Pascal's Wager

mis-t-highs

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The End of Pascal's Wager: Only Nontheists Go to Heaven

The following argument could be taken as tongue-in-cheek, if it didn't seem so evidently true. At any rate, to escape the logic of it requires theists to commit to abandoning several of their cherished assumptions about God or Heaven. And no matter what, it presents a successful rebuttal to any form of Pascal's Wager, by demonstrating that unbelief might still be the safest bet after all (since we do not know whose assumptions are correct, and we therefore cannot exclude the assumptions on which this argument is based).

Argument 1: Who Goes to Heaven?

It is a common belief that only the morally good should populate heaven, and this is a reasonable belief, widely defended by theists of many varieties. Suppose there is a god who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both. They will also be less likely ever to discover and commit to true beliefs about right and wrong. That is, if they have a significant and trustworthy concern for doing right and avoiding wrong, it follows necessarily that they must have a significant and trustworthy concern for knowing right and wrong. Since this knowledge requires knowledge about many fundamental facts of the universe (such as whether there is a god), it follows necessarily that such people must have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about such things are probably correct. Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven--unless god wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy.

But only two groups fit this description: intellectually committed but critical theists, and intellectually committed but critical nontheists (which means both atheists and agnostics, though more specifically secular humanists, in the most basic sense). Both groups have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about god (for example) are probably correct, so that their beliefs about right and wrong will probably be correct. No other groups can claim this. If anyone is sincerely interested in doing right and wrong, they must be sincerely interested in whether certain claims are true, including "God exists," and must treat this matter with as much responsibility and concern as any other moral question. And the only two kinds of people who do this are those theists and nontheists who devote their lives to examining the facts and determining whether they are right.

Argument 2: Why This World?

It is a common belief that certain mysteries, like unexplained evils in the world and god's silence, are to be explained as a test, and this is a reasonable belief, widely defended by theists of many varieties. After all, if no test were needed, then God could and would, out of his compassion and perfect efficiency, simply select candidates at birth and dispense with any actual life in this world, since God would immediately know their merits.

Free will cannot negate this conclusion, since if God cannot know us because we might freely reverse ourselves, then God cannot fill heaven with trustworthy people: for anyone in heaven may through an unexpected act of free will become or do evil. And given an eternity, it is probable that most of the population of heaven will do something evil. After all, if free will prevents him, then God cannot predict who will or won't do evil and thus he can never select those who will be forever good from those who will not, except by some inductive test.

Since those who will be forever good must naturally be rare in comparison to the set of all those people appearing to be good up to their deaths, it follows that, lacking a reliable inductive test, most of the population of heaven will not be genuinely good. It follows that a god who wanted better results would probably distinguish the genuinely good, and thus deserving, from the untrustworthy and undeserving, by subjecting all candidates to a reliable test, and it would be reasonable to conclude that this world only exists for such a purpose.

Argument 3: No God or Evil God

If presented with strong evidence that a god must either be evil or not exist, a genuinely good person will not believe in such a god, or if believing, will not give assent to such a god (as by worship or other assertions of approval, since the good do not approve of evil). Most theists do not deny this, but instead deny that the evidence is strong. But it seems irrefutable that there is strong evidence that a god must either be evil or not exist.

For example, in the bible Abraham discards humanity and morality upon God's command to kill his son Isaac, and God rewards him for placing loyalty above morality. That is probably evil--a good god would expect Abraham to forego fear and loyalty and place compassion first and refuse to commit an evil act, and would reward him for that, not for compliance. Likewise, God deliberately inflicts unconscionable wrongs upon Job and his family merely to win a debate with Satan. That is probably evil--no good god would do such harm for so petty a reason, much less prefer human suffering to the cajoling of a mere angel. And then God justifies these wrongs to Job by claiming to be able to do whatever he wants, in effect saying that he is beyond morality. That is probably evil--a good god would never claim to be beyond good and evil. And so it goes for all the genocidal slaughter and barbaric laws commanded by God in the bible. Then there are all the natural evils in the world (like diseases and earthquakes) and all the unchecked human evils (i.e. god makes no attempt to catch criminals or stop heinous crimes, etc.). Only an evil god would probably allow such things.

Argument 4: The Test

Of the two groups comprising the only viable candidates for heaven, only nontheists recognize or admit that this evidence strongly implies that God must be evil or not exist. Therefore, only nontheists answer the test as predicted for morally good persons. That is, a morally good person will be intellectually and critically responsible about having true beliefs, and will place this commitment to moral good above all other concerns, especially those that can corrupt or compromise moral goodness, like faith or loyalty. So those who are genuinely worthy of heaven will very probably become nontheists, since their inquiry will be responsible and therefore complete, and will place moral concerns above all others. They will then encounter the undeniable facts of all these unexplained evils (in the bible and in the world) and conclude that God must probably be evil or nonexistent.

In other words, to accept such evils without being given a justification (as is entailed by god's silence) indicates an insufficient concern for having true beliefs. But to have the courage to maintain unbelief in the face of threats of hell or destruction, as well as numerous forms of social pressure and other hostile factors, is exactly the behavior a god would expect from the genuinely good, rather than capitulation to the will of an evil being, or naive and unjustified trust that an apparently evil being is really good--those are not behaviors of the genuinely good.

Therefore only intellectually committed but critical nontheists are genuinely good and will go to heaven. Therefore, if a god exists, his silence and allowance of evil (in the world and the bible) are explained and justified by his plan to discover the only sorts of people who deserve to populate heaven: sincere nontheists. And this makes perfect sense of many mysteries, thus explaining what theists struggle to explain themselves.

* God's hiddenness is necessary on this account, since his presence would inspire people to behave as if good out of fear or selfish interests, not out of courage or compassion or a sense of personal integrity.


* A false, evil image of God in the bible is necessary in order to test whether the reader will place morality or faith first, so this tests moral courage in the face of assertions, threats and promises of reward. It also tests cognitive trustworthiness, since it is wrong to trust what someone merely wrote, over scientifically established truths and the direct evidence of reason and the senses.


* Natural evils and unchecked human evils are also necessary on this account, since only in such a way can a god "demonstrate" that no moral power is behind the universe, that there is no custodian, and by that means lead a rational, compassionate observer to conclude there is no god. If the universe were well-ordered, with inherent moral enforcement and the containment or restriction of evils, observers would conclude there is a god and thus, again, might act as if good out of fear or hope of reward.

The only way to truly test human beings is to see if we will become nontheists after serious and sincere inquiry into these matters: to see if we have the courage and fortitude to choose morality over faith or loyalty, and be good without fear or hope of divine reward. No other test will ensure a result of the genuinely good being self-selected into a predictable belief-state that can be observed in secret by god.

Conclusion

Since this easily and comprehensively explains all the unexplainable problems of god (like divine hiddenness and apparent evil), while other theologies do not (or at least nowhere so well), it follows that this analysis is probably a better explanation of all the available evidence than any contrary theology. Since this conclusion contradicts the conclusion of every form of Pascal's Wager, it follows that Pascal's Wager cannot assure anyone of God's existence or that belief in God will be the best bet.

Richard Carrier
 
Mis-T-High,

It is a common belief that only the morally good should populate heaven, and this is a reasonable belief, widely defended by theists of many varieties.

The first sentence does not agree with Christianity. Jesus said if you want to get to heaven on your own merit, then it must excede the righteousness of the Pharisees (they were the most self-righteous in their day). This point separates christianity from all other religions. Jesus says it is not by works of righteousness we have done but according to his mercy he saved us.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.



It follows that a god who wanted better results would probably distinguish the genuinely good, and thus deserving, from the untrustworthy and undeserving, by subjecting all candidates to a reliable test, and it would be reasonable to conclude that this world only exists for such a purpose.

This is partially correct. The test, however, is one of faith, not of works. God does not want braggarts in heaven:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I don't like braggarts either, they are too conceited.


On point 3:

For example, in the bible Abraham discards humanity and morality upon God's command to kill his son Isaac, and God rewards him for placing loyalty above morality.

Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead. His faith in God was that strong. If Abraham killed Issac and he was left for dead then God would be a liar, because God told Abraham that Isaac would be the seed of promise. So the test is: "Do you believe what God says?" A&E on the otherhand, failed the test. Their intellect being irrelevant to the decision. If intellect was required for heaven, then retarded people, and children would be left out.


Therefore only intellectually committed but critical nontheists are genuinely good and will go to heaven

What about children that die early? Do they get left out under this argument?

I haven't read Pascal's Wager, I'll have to check it out.

To every point there is a counterpoint.
 
woody said:
Mis-T-Highs said:
It is a common belief that only the morally good should populate heaven, and this is a reasonable belief, widely defended by theists of many varieties.
The first sentence does not agree with Christianity. Jesus said if you want to get to heaven on your own merit, then it must excede the righteousness of the Pharisees (they were the most self-righteous in their day). This point separates christianity from all other religions. Jesus says it is not by works of righteousness we have done but according to his mercy he saved us.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
so you dont agree with your brethren, you think murderers, rapist, paedophiles, will go to heaven as they have exceded the righteous.
or do they become the morally good, by repenting.
in which case, mistys first sentence holds true.
woody said:
mis-t-highs said:
It follows that a god who wanted better results would probably distinguish the genuinely good, and thus deserving, from the untrustworthy and undeserving, by subjecting all candidates to a reliable test, and it would be reasonable to conclude that this world only exists for such a purpose.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
This is partially correct. The test, however, is one of faith, not of works. God does not want braggarts in heaven:
but you just said it was'nt true at all, make you mind up.
woody said:
mis-t-highs said:
For example, in the bible Abraham discards humanity and morality upon God's command to kill his son Isaac, and God rewards him for placing loyalty above morality.
Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead. His faith in God was that strong. If Abraham killed Issac and he was left for dead then God would be a liar, because God told Abraham that Isaac would be the seed of promise. So the test is: "Do you believe what God says?" A&E on the otherhand, failed the test. Their intellect being irrelevant to the decision. If intellect was required for heaven, then retarded people, and children would be left out.
how far down, did you read of the original post, as you seem to have missed the point.
woody said:
mis-t-highs said:
Therefore only intellectually committed but critical nontheists are genuinely good and will go to heaven
What about children that die early? Do they get left out under this argument?
quite clearly you did not read it fully, read it again.
woody said:
I haven't read Pascal's Wager, I'll have to check it out.
Pascal's wager, Formally speaking, the argument consists of four statements:

1. One does not know whether God exists.
2. Not believing in God is bad for one's eternal soul if God does exist.
3. Believing in God is of no consequence if God does not exist.
4. Therefore it is in one's interest to believe in God.

woody said:
To every point there is a counterpoint.
but you have'nt put any.
 
Audible said,

so you dont agree with your brethren, you think murderers, rapist, paedophiles, will go to heaven as they have exceded the righteous.

Yep, my christian fundamentalist brethren agree: the only requirements for heaven are repentence and faith (eg, the thief on the cross). Morality has nothing to do with going to heaven, it only reduces punishment in Hell, for those that don't have faith.

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Faith produces obedience to the law. Obeying the law does not make a person "righteous." In the final analysis, Jeffrey Dalmar (a serial killer that converted) has a better chance of going to heaven than an athiest, because athiests have no faith.

The just shall live by faith:

no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

but you just said it was'nt true at all, make you mind up.

I am still talking about faith, which atheists fail to understand. Faith is foolishness and nonsense to an atheist, but for a believer, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


how far down, did you read of the original post, as you seem to have missed the point.

I read the whole thing carefully. Where was an allowance made for children? Also, mis-t- high did not write the original article -- I read it to the bottom.

concerning counterpoints audible said:

but you have'nt put any.

Why are athiests so conceited? They say things like " your mind is so dumb", or "you don't have a brain" or "you're blinded and stupid." What makes you guys think you have all the answers anyway? What constructive use is there for these comments? I ask myself: why would a reasonable person make statements like these?

Answer: It comes from conceit because you think more highly of yourself than you deserve.

Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

If I could buy your opinion for what it's worth and sell it for what you think it is worth, I would be a rich man indeed.
 
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Woody said:
Yep, my christian fundamentalist brethren agree: the only requirements for heaven are repentence and faith (eg, the thief on the cross). Morality has nothing to do with going to heaven, it only reduces punishment in Hell, for those that don't have faith.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Faith produces obedience to the law. Obeying the law does not make a person "righteous." In the final analysis, Jeffrey Dalmar (a serial killer that converted) has a better chance of going to heaven than an athiest, because athiests have no faith.
The just shall live by faith:
no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
I am still talking about faith, which atheists fail to understand. Faith is foolishness and nonsense to an atheist, but for a believer, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
morality has everything to do with heaven, for Faith(Christianity). The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
virtue: Moral excellence and righteousness; goodness.
so you see it has everything to do with heaven, dont you agree.
 
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

So God has constructed intrinsically fallible beings and at the same time set absolutely impossible standards which no one can met. Sounds like rather muddy thinking for an omniscient being. The actual reason is that if you live a good life without jesus you don't have to pay tithes and preachers will enjoy less power and influence.
 
Mis-T-High,

Congrats on a well thought out set of arguments.

Woody said:
The first sentence does not agree with Christianity.

I don't think that it was meant to agree with xianity. Mis-T-High was pointing out that "it is a common belief that only the morally good go to heaven." That Mis-T-High ascribed this as a belief defended by theists in no way implies that theists are all xians. But even among christians, I would have to agree that it is a common belief that only the morally good go to heaven, the alleged words of Jesus notwithstanding.

In philosophical/logical discussion such as this, it's useless to quote bilblical text to support either side, since this only begins a circular argument, particularly when using biblical text to verify biblical text. It's also worthy to note that archaeological and epigraphical evidence suggests that much of the christian bible was written after-the-fact and that the authors arranged texts to support their reform efforts.

Woody said:
This is partially correct. The test, however, is one of faith, not of works. God does not want braggarts in heaven:

I think you misunderstood the argument. Mis-T-Highs was pointing out the inconsistency of a good-god vs. "free-will." Free will is a concept that cannot exist if there is a single god that is omniscent and omnipresent. That would imply that this god already knew the outcomes of everyone's lives and had no need of this existence to select the members of an alleged heaven. If "free-will" exists, then it negates the possibility of an omniscent an omnipresent deity. If "free-will" exists, then some sort of test would be necessary to determine who goes to the alleged heaven, since the deity is flawed with inability to know who they are.

This test, you say, is faith, but that is an illogical conclusion since there is no substantial evidence to support the notion that the god that a member of a given theistic cult worships is the correct one (you, naturally, believe that this is your god). I could be that the true deity has never revealed itself to humanity and would consider unqualified for an alleged heave all those that worship the false gods of Yahweh, Elohim, Allah, Vishnu, Baal, El (the same as Elohim and Yahweh) or his wife Asherah, Zeus, Athena, Xbalanque, Hunahpu, Chac, etc.

Woody said:
What about children that die early? Do they get left out under this argument?

Precisely. Which is evidence that this reality is all there is.
 
For example, in the bible Abraham discards humanity and morality upon God's command to kill his son Isaac, and God rewards him for placing loyalty above morality.
No, Abraham was to offer his son. Whether God accepted his son or did not, was yet to be decided when Abraham was told.
 
okinrus: No, Abraham was to offer his son. Whether God accepted his son or did not, was yet to be decided when Abraham was told.
*************
M*W: God refused Isaac as a worthy sacrifice. (BTW, I'm not anti-Semitic by any means, but Abraham followed the ancient pagan belief of animal/human sacrifice. Maybe the desert sun beat down on old Abraham a little to long that day, because there couldn't possibly have been a voice coming out of the clouds telling him to sacrifice his son. Ishmael was more worthy than Isaac because he was the first-born son.
 
M*W: God refused Isaac as a worthy sacrifice. (BTW, I'm not anti-Semitic by any means, but Abraham followed the ancient pagan belief of animal/human sacrifice.
Well, yes. But I make a difference between presenting Isaac with the possibility of God choosing death and killing Isaac outright. God commanded the former but not the latter. In fact, first born sons are presented to God by Jewish custom, and likely this practice grew out of Issac's presentation. I don't have references for this, though.

Maybe the desert sun beat down on old Abraham a little to long that day, because there couldn't possibly have been a voice coming out of the clouds telling him to sacrifice his son. Ishmael was more worthy than Isaac because he was the first-born son.
I don't think Ishmael would not be considered the first born son by Jewish custom. Ishmael wasn't married to his mother.
 
okinrus said:
No, Abraham was to offer his son. Whether God accepted his son or did not, was yet to be decided when Abraham was told.

Au contraire, God, being omniscient, had already 'decided' whether or not Isaac was to die before Abraham was ever born.
 
okinrus: In fact, first born sons are presented to God by Jewish custom, and likely this practice grew out of Issac's presentation. I don't have references for this, though.

I don't think Ishmael would not be considered the first born son by Jewish custom. Ishmael wasn't married to his mother.
*************
M*W: In those days, having a child with a servant or a sister-in-law (or even one's own daughter) was not only acceptable but required, and it wasn't looked down on at all. Just look at the ancient Egyptian and Canaanite practices. Abraham never disowned Ishmael. He traveled to Medina and built Hagar and Ishmael a house and visited them often. In fact, Abraham and Sarah were half-brother/sister. They shared a father who was an Egyptian pharaoh. It really gets complicated back then.
 
Au contraire, God, being omniscient, had already 'decided' whether or not Isaac was to die before Abraham was ever born.
Southstar, you're assuming a set definition of omniscient. All omniscient means is that God knows everything, which is to say God knows all which is knowable. But of course somethings are unknowable. It's possible some portions of the future are unknowable, both to God and to men. It's possible the future is completely known to God. I don't really know which is the case. In any case, I was speaking with respect to Abraham. Abraham would not yet know whether his sacrifice would be accepted.

M*W: In those days, having a child with a servant or a sister-in-law (or even one's own daughter) was not only acceptable but required, and it wasn't looked down on at all. Just look at the ancient Egyptian and Canaanite practices. Abraham never disowned Ishmael. He traveled to Medina and built Hagar and Ishmael a house and visited them often. In fact, Abraham and Sarah were half-brother/sister. They shared a father who was an Egyptian pharaoh. It really gets complicated back then.
M*W, concubines were accepted in Abraham's culture, but the offspring of such relations were not considered the first born, I think. I don't know how you are figuring Abraham shared a father who was an Egyptian pharoah. Abraham was from Ur.
 
Southstar, you're assuming a set definition of omniscient. All omniscient means is that God knows everything, which is to say God knows all which is knowable. But of course somethings are unknowable. It's possible some portions of the future are unknowable, both to God and to men. It's possible the future is completely known to God. I don't really know which is the case. In any case, I was speaking with respect to Abraham. Abraham would not yet know whether his sacrifice would be accepted.

I am not sure how this makes sense. If there is something God does not know, then He is NOT - by definition - omniscient. And of course Abraham knew his sacrifice would be accepted, was God schizophrenic? If He asked you to kill your son, and after killing your son He zapped you for commiting murder I am sure there would be doubts to His sanity.

So. As Paul correctly reminds us, Abraham, our good friend, had faith in God. And therefore Abraham knew God's purpose in asking him to do so was right. And he did not doubt for one moment, as Romans reminds us, as to whether or not God really or really was not schizophrenic. ;)
 
mis-t-highs, great post!

Woody said:
Yep, my christian fundamentalist brethren agree: the only requirements for heaven are repentence and faith (eg, the thief on the cross). Morality has nothing to do with going to heaven,. . . . .

mis-t-highs said:
[It] will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both.

Woody, sorry to say, you were already answered.
 
I am not sure how this makes sense. If there is something God does not know, then He is NOT - by definition - omniscient.
The realm of knowledge can only extend to what knowledge is: something that can be known. But there are somethings God cannot know. They aren't part of body of knowledge. For instance, God cannot know a world where the circles have three sides. Circles don't have sides, and a world such and such would cause a contradiction.

And of course Abraham knew his sacrifice would be accepted, was God schizophrenic? If He asked you to kill your son, and after killing your son He zapped you for commiting murder I am sure there would be doubts to His sanity.
Abraham may have thought his sacrifice would be accepted. But God only said to present Issac--not sacrifice Issac. Abraham did this. It was God's plan at the beginning not to kill Issac, but only to test Abraham's faith.

So. As Paul correctly reminds us, Abraham, our good friend, had faith in God. And therefore Abraham knew God's purpose in asking him to do so was right.
Faith requires Abraham to know God's purpose was right, but does not require Abraham to know God's purpose.
 
Hmmmmmmm. I guess you can rape, pillage, steal, and murder all you want throughout your life so long as you "repent" on your deathbed. Very convenient.
 
Thanks Okinrus!!! For the enlightment.

I understand now, there ARE some things God cannont know.. now that explains ALOT!!
 
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