The Demiurge.

[Scaramouche]

The Demiurge.

What is the Demiurge concept? Why does it matter? Why should it matter? Read on...

The Demiurge concept, by one name or another, has been around for thousands of years, and is a core component (although one rarely discussed in polite circles) of the Jewish/Christian/Muslim religion. The concept is actually included in early writings associated with the Jewish/Christian religion, although in books omitted from the official doctrines as determined after the gang all got together at the First Council of Nicaea. Basically a bunch of guys got together and figured out the direction they wanted to go, officially, with Christianity, and they determined over time which stories and ideas would be included in the official version.

Anyway, enough of the history. The Demiurge idea is that there's a true Creator of the universe, the whole lot, but he's way off in the background, and mostly a spectator. Now this Creator represents the "immeasurable light, pure, holy, incorruptibility"* and all those concepts. Due to some of his creations or aspects fooling around, another was created. This other was left ignorant of its creation, and of its Creator, and was thus termed the Blind God. The notion of pride in this one comes from the fact that, being ignorant of its creation, it believes itself to actually be the big honcho. Well, he knows of his mother, but doesn't really get what's behind her at all.

"And the Sophia of the Epinoia, being an aeon, conceived a thought from herself and the conception of the invisible Spirit and foreknowledge. She wanted to bring forth a likeness out of herself without the consent of the Spirit, - he had not approved - and without her consort, and without his consideration. And though the person of her maleness had not approved, and she had not found her agreement, and she had thought without the consent of the Spirit and the knowledge of her agreement, (yet) she brought forth. And because of the invincible power which is in her, her thought did not remain idle, and something came out of her which was imperfect and different from her appearance, because she had created it without her consort. And it was dissimilar to the likeness of its mother, for it has another form.

"And when she saw (the consequences of) her desire, it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent. And its eyes were like lightning fires which flash. She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living. And she called his name Yaltabaoth (also Yaldabaoth).

"This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother. And he removed himself from her and moved away from the places in which he was born. He became strong and created for himself other aeons with a flame of luminous fire which (still) exists now. And he joined with his arrogance which is in him and begot authorities for himself. The name of the first one is Athoth, whom the generations call the reaper. The second one is Harmas, who is the eye of envy. The third one is Kalila-Oumbri. The fourth one is Yabel. The fifth one is Adonaiou, who is called Sabaoth. The sixth one is Cain, whom the generations of men call the sun. The seventh is Abel. The eighth is Abrisene. The ninth is Yobel. The tenth is Armoupieel. The eleventh is Melceir-Adonein. The twelfth is Belias, it is he who is over the depth of Hades. And he placed seven kings - each corresponding to the firmaments of heaven - over the seven heavens, and five over the depth of the abyss, that they may reign. And he shared his fire with them, but he did not send forth from the power of the light which he had taken from his mother, for he is ignorant darkness.

"Now the archon who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas, and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, 'I am God and there is no other God beside me,' for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come.

"And the archons created seven powers for themselves, and the powers created for themselves six angels for each one until they became 365 angels. And these are the bodies belonging with the names: the first is Athoth, a he has a sheep's face; the second is Eloaiou, he has a donkey's face; the third is Astaphaios, he has a hyena's face; the fourth is Yao, he has a serpent's face with seven heads; the fifth is Sabaoth, he has a dragon's face; the sixth is Adonin, he had a monkey's face; the seventh is Sabbede, he has a shining fire-face. This is the sevenness of the week.

"But Yaltabaoth had a multitude of faces, more than all of them, so that he could put a face before all of them, according to his desire, when he is in the midst of seraphs. He shared his fire with them; therefore he became lord over them. Because of the power of the glory he possessed of his mother's light, he called himself God. And he did not obey the place from which he came. And he united the seven powers in his thought with the authorities which were with him. And when he spoke it happened. And he named each power beginning with the highest: the first is goodness with the first (authority), Athoth; the second is foreknowledge with the second one, Eloaio; and the third is divinity with the third one, Astraphaio); the fourth is lordship with the fourth one, Yao; the fifth is kingdom with the fifth one, Sabaoth; the sixth is envy with the sixth one, Adonein; the seventh is understanding with the seventh one, Sabbateon. And these have a firmament corresponding to each aeon-heaven. They were given names according to the glory which belongs to heaven for the destruction of the powers. And in the names which were given to them by their Originator there was power. But the names which were given them according to the glory which belongs to heaven mean for them destruction and powerlessness. Thus they have two names.

"And having created [...] everything, he organized according to the model of the first aeons which had come into being, so that he might create them like the indestructible ones. Not because he had seen the indestructible ones, but the power in him, which he had taken from his mother, produced in him the likeness of the cosmos. And when he saw the creation which surrounds him, and the multitude of the angels around him which had come forth from him, he said to them, 'I am a jealous God, and there is no other God beside me.' But by announcing this he indicated to the angels who attended him that there exists another God. For if there were no other one, of whom would he be jealous?

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

Feel free to read the rest.

Now this is where we get the "jealous god" notion. He doesn't really know or understand the Creator of everything, but he figures something is out there, and he's all "Don't go looking for it or I'll smack you down, because I'm jealous". It seems to me that if a god were the true Creator Of Everything, it'd have nothing to be jealous about.

Anyway, so there we have this ignorant, insecure being which, due to concepts imprinted in its mind from mummy dearest, went ahead and created the physical universe. And because he's imperfect, ignorant, jealous, and insecure, he's basically made a big mess of it all. There are bunches of variations in different books and myths, but that's pretty much the heart of the matter.

So then the Demiurge (meaning a craftsman) set about making stuff. Stuff like people. The creation mythology presented in the Christian bible, according to the apocrypha, is actually what this Demiurge guy got up to in creating the physical universe, including humans.

"And a voice came forth from the exalted aeon-heaven: 'The Man exists and the son of Man.' And the chief archon, Yaltabaoth, heard (it) and thought that the voice had come from his mother. And he did not know from where it came. And he taught them, the holy and perfect Mother-Father, the complete foreknowledge, the image of the invisible one who is the Father of the all (and) through whom everything came into being, the first Man. For he revealed his likeness in a human form.

"And the whole aeon of the chief archon trembled, and the foundations of the abyss shook. And of the waters which are above matter, the underside was illuminated by the appearance of his image which had been revealed. And when all the authorities and the chief archon looked, they saw the whole region of the underside which was illuminated. And through the light they saw the form of the image in the water.

"And he said to the authorities which attend him, 'Come, let us create a man according to the image of God and according to our likeness, that his image may become a light for us.' And they created by means of their respective powers in correspondence with the characteristics which were given. And each authority supplied a characteristic in the form of the image which he had seen in its natural (form). He created a being according to the likeness of the first, perfect Man. And they said, 'Let us call him Adam, that his name may become a power of light for us.'

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

There's a whole big section on how they went about it, and really it seems like a roster of lab assistants and which parts of a biology project they worked on, but there's no need to quote all that.

However, it is interesting to note that part of the creation of humans in there involves the creation of the negative drives such as envy, fear, greed, et cetera, and that these things were also instilled as part of that little biology project.

"And when the mother wanted to retrieve the power which she had given to the chief archon, she petitioned the Mother-Father of the All, who is most merciful. He sent, by means of the holy decree, the five lights down upon the place of the angels of the chief archon. They advised him that they should bring forth the power of the mother. And they said to Yaltabaoth, 'Blow into his face something of your spirit and his body will arise.' And he blew into his face the spirit which is the power of his mother; he did not know (this), for he exists in ignorance. And the power of the mother went out of Yaltabaoth into the natural body, which they had fashioned after the image of the one who exists from the beginning. The body moved and gained strength, and it was luminous.

"And in that moment the rest of the powers became jealous, because he had come into being through all of them and they had given their power to the man, and his intelligence was greater than that of those who had made him, and greater than that of the chief archon. And when they recognized that he was luminous, and that he could think better than they, and that he was free from wickedness, they took him and threw him into the lowest region of all matter.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

Now this is where it gets interesting. Very Frankenstein-ish (of course the Frankenstein story was a deliberate mirror of the creation of Man). They make Man, Yaltabaoth breathes life into the creation, then they get all upset because their creation is smarter than them and has free will. Free will, of course, is a real problem for someone who is insecure and really wants everyone to think he's the alpha and omega.

"But the blessed One, the Mother-Father, the beneficent and merciful One, had mercy on the power of the mother which had been brought forth out of the chief archon, for they (the archons) might gain power over the natural and perceptible body. And he sent, through his beneficent Spirit and his great mercy, a helper to Adam, luminous Epinoia which comes out of him, who is called Life. And she assists the whole creature, by toiling with him and by restoring him to his fullness and by teaching him about the descent of his seed (and) by teaching him about the way of ascent, (which is) the way he came down. And the luminous Epinoia was hidden in Adam, in order that the archons might not know her, but that the Epinoia might be a correction of the deficiency of the mother.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

So now we have Man, born into a world created by ignorance and envy, born with all the negative and destructive traits of his creators. But unlike them, Man has the brains to figure things out. Unlike them, Man has the potential to figure out the "way of ascent", as it says there. See, this sort of thing is why, I have found, the religion in many ways mirrors my own beliefs. The same notions are present in Buddhism and other beliefs also. The pressure of the world around us constantly encourage us to live according to negative principles, but we have the potential to be more. What is that "more"? When I figure it out, I'll let you know.

So, the creators weren't too happy about it all. They didn't want any upstart young lab experiment to get all smart and enilghtened and stuff. Certainly they didn't want Man to get a lightbulb over his head and realise there was more to the world than the creators, or they'd feel really bad about themselves.

"And the man came forth because of the shadow of the light which is in him. And his thinking was superior to all those who had made him. When they looked up, they saw that his thinking was superior. And they took counsel with the whole array of archons and angels. They took fire and earth and water and mixed them together with the four fiery winds. And they wrought them together and caused a great disturbance. And they brought him (Adam) into the shadow of death, in order that they might form (him) again from earth and water and fire and the spirit which originates in matter, which is the ignorance of darkness and desire, and their counterfeit spirit. This is the tomb of the newly-formed body with which the robbers had clothed the man, the bond of forgetfulness; and he became a mortal man. This is the first one who came down, and the first separation. But the Epinoia of the light which was in him, she is the one who was to awaken his thinking.

"And the archons took him and placed him in paradise. And they said to him, 'Eat, that is at leisure,' for their luxury is bitter and their beauty is depraved. And their luxury is deception and their trees are godlessness and their fruit is deadly poison and their promise is death. And the tree of their life they had placed in the midst of paradise.

"And I shall teach you (pl.) what is the mystery of their life, which is the plan which they made together, which is the likeness of their spirit. The root of this (tree) is bitter and its branches are death, its shadow is hate and deception is in its leaves, and its blossom is the ointment of evil, and its fruit is death and desire is its seed, and it sprouts in darkness. The dwelling place of those who taste from it is Hades, and the darkness is their place of rest.

"But what they call the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is the Epinoia of the light, they stayed in front of it in order that he (Adam) might not look up to his fullness and recognize the nakedness of his shamefulness. But it was I who brought about that they ate."

And to I said to the savior, "Lord, was it not the serpent that taught Adam to eat?" The savior smiled and said, "The serpent taught them to eat from wickedness of begetting, lust, (and) destruction, that he (Adam) might be useful to him. And he (Adam) knew that he was disobedient to him (the chief archon) due to light of the Epinoia which is in him, which made him more correct in his thinking than the chief archon. And (the latter) wanted to bring about the power which he himself had given him. And he brought a forgetfulness over Adam."

And I said to the savior, "What is the forgetfulness?" And he said "It is not the way Moses wrote (and) you heard. For he said in his first book, 'He put him to sleep' (Gn 2:21), but (it was) in his perception. For also he said through the prophet, 'I will make their hearts heavy, that they may not pay attention and may not see' (Is 6:10).

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/apocjn.html

So they stick Man in this nifty garden full of stuff: the world. Eat, drink, and be merry. All your desires catered for. Enjoy yourself. But whatever you do, don't eat from the tree of knowledge! Why? Well, in these things knowledge doesn't mean figuring out new technologies, new science. It doesn't mean using giant space telescopes to figure out more facts about the shape and patterns of the universe. It means knowledge of "ascent" as mentioned earlier. Knowledge of who and what we are, the meaning of our lives, that sort of thing. According to the story/allegory, the forces of the world pressure Man to indulge, to enjoy, but never to seek those answers, or never to ask those questions. I'm fine with enjoying; there's nothing wrong with it, provided it's not at the expense of others. But by all means, head for that tree at the same time.

Anyway, back in terms of Adam and Eve and the apple, it wasn't the Creator who told Man to steer clear of the knowledge of good and evil. It was Yaltabaoth and pals, wanting to keep Man ignorant and dull, wanting Man to forget the light inside him, and thus maintain their own grip on authority.

In real-world terms, this again mirrors my own beliefs. The way our world is set up, humanity is occupied by money, labour, material things, and all manner of nonsense. We're ruled by those whose authority and control only increases as humanity continues to be occupied by such things. The banking system, the way everyone needs to get into debt to simply have a home, labouring and paying taxes and paying debts throughout the prime of one's life just to have a roof and food, but at least you get five hundred channels of bullshit to ease the pain a little... That, to me, is Man being kept dull and forgetful, Man prevented from focusing on important matters, Man kept from ascent. Those who profit from it all, in terms of material wealth and increasing control, could be considered analogous to the creators in the apocrypha, in that they and their kind created the systems and processes of the world in which we find ourselves, the systems and processes which, in a thousand small ways every day, contribute to keeping people bound to that system, that way of life.

I should expand on that. I believe it is entirely possible to view all of it without any mystical components. We might, for example, view the Creator in all that as either the traditional concept of a God who created the universe, or we can view it as something along the lines of human transcendence, or humanity trying to improve itself, rise above all those negative aspects, et cetera. We could then view the Demiurge, Yaltabaoth, et cetera, as the people (arseholes with the desire to control others), groups (such as the banking cartels), and forces (the economic, political, and social forces which compel humanity to labour away and be part of a system imposed on them by others) which tend to inhibit Man from reaching his full potential. The various archons, angels, and other things mentioned could be seen as the banks, bankers, governments, organised churches, or any other such forces which participate in the ever-increasing global control of humanity.

It's no accident that this whole concept is the opposite of the creation and religion story spread about by the organised churches, political organisations which have ruled a great portion of humanity for a very long time. In the traditional doctrine, Man is warned to steer away from the knowledge of good and evil, to be meek and humble, to accept that exacting justice is for someone else, and that we must commune with divinity through appointed authorities of the church. In other words, such organisations have always sought the suppression of Man; they've sought to keep people dull, docile, forgetful, controlled, and shielded from the type of "ascent" mentioned above.

Anyway, that's my take on the Demiurge notion. I encourage people to read, and to try comparing the concepts in various religions and philosophies to the world around them.

Bloggy version: http://accidentalhuman.livejournal.com/45390.html

 

[Doreen]

I found the Demiurge idea when I was reading about gnostics. I like the idea. It also can act as a partial resolution of the problem of evil. Though the real God must justify leaving certain neighborhood in the thrall of the demiurge.

You could also think of the demiurge as a personification of the cultural filters that have interpreted God. Which you sort of do in the latter portion of your post.

 

[Suckka]

Demiurge

You said a few interesting things, that Demiurge are ideas without the mystical elements. I don't see how gods are not mystical. That the religion agrees more with your personal beliefs about life is exactly why religions work, because they are so vague and cumbersome that they can be interpreted differently, by different people at different times, depending on how likeable and pursuasive the speaker or writer is, making them just tools of control. The Demiurge idea seems like a belief that is even closer to giving up the ghost, as it were. I think everyone should try for a few days, maybe weeks, to believe that there are no gods, to argue as an athiest (for lack of a better term), that you are here by luck, no one is in charge (good or evil), and your life will not go on after you die, so that you can live a life of courage, honesty, tolerance and meaning (without delusion and fear) in the hear and now. It is truly challenging, freeing and empowering and it feels right when things make sense. These are just my feelings on the subject, it's just seems so exhausting to try to make sense from writings that don't make sense. The demiurge god is just another god or devil, like Hercules, sacred cows, Satan, demons, Budda, Jehova, Pan, Nymphs, Tritons, ghosts, furies, fairies, bugbears, day, night, muses, Fortune, Cupid, Succube, the sun, Venus, and so on.

 

[CheskiChips]

I can pretty much state with confidence that gnosticism is not central to Catholicism, Islam, or Orthodox Judaism. It is however a rampant plague in Protestantism and Reformism in all religions.

 

[Scaramouche]

Actually a lot of it comes from the same source as Catholicism, but the Catholics changed things around at Nicea and afterward.

 

[Suckka]

Either way it's a start, and we still have science and reason.

 

[TheVisitor]

If you had the responsibility to give "all things" to whomever you will...immortality, all the kingdoms, in all the worlds, in all the galaxies...
Wouldn't you want to test the loyalties of those who would receive such a gift first?

Like a rich man seeking a bride, wouldn't you want to separate those "gold-diggers" who only want you for your money....from those who are true of heart?

Perhaps this is part of the plan.
I think maybe God does many things the same way in patterns over time so we can begin to understand.
Take this example...

Judges 2:2-3, 2:20-22.

(2)And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
(3)Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

They made a pact with some of their enemies and allowed them to survive instead of totally wiping them out as they were commanded and Joshua their leader died at 110 yrs old in vs (8), without clearing the land, then...

(20)And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;
(21) I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
(22)That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.

This seems to be the pattern that works, so you might expect it to repeat in our lives even today.
There could be many reasons for leaving an authority in power that is contrary to the standards God set forth in the Bible.
It may be just to test and see what you will do.

 

[786]

'core component of Muslim religion'....

Please provide evidence for the above claim if you can.. I would like to examine that evidence to understand what you mean by 'demiurge' in the Muslim faith.

Peace be upon you

 

[Forceman]

There is no Muslim demiurge

'core component of Muslim religion'....

Please provide evidence for the above claim if you can.. I would like to examine that evidence to understand what you mean by 'demiurge' in the Muslim faith.

Peace be upon you

I thought Muslims believed in an impersonal god; how could the supreme Allah come down as a meddler in human affairs, and since you believe Jesus is only a prophet like Mohammed, the similarity between the gnostic emanation of God and the 'Mohammedian' role of being the prophet of Allah are two very different things.

 

[786]

I thought Muslims believed in an impersonal god; how could the supreme Allah come down as a meddler in human affairs, and since you believe Jesus is only a prophet like Mohammed, the similarity between the gnostic emanation of God and the 'Mohammedian' role of being the prophet of Allah are two very different things.

Huh? How does that follow from my question? I was asking evidence of 'demiurge' in the Muslim faith which is an assertion by the OP.

As for Allah being 'impersonal'- I think you'll find a contrary view. Its not that God can't come down and meddle with his people, if he wanted he could, but simply put he didn't. And secondly Jesus never said he was God, even in the Bible.

Peace be unto you

 

[Forceman]

Elohim

Huh? How does that follow from my question? I was asking evidence of 'demiurge' in the Muslim faith which is an assertion by the OP.

As for Allah being 'impersonal'- I think you'll find a contrary view. Its not that God can't come down and meddle with his people, if he wanted he could, but simply put he didn't. And secondly Jesus never said he was God, even in the Bible.

Peace be unto you

"I and the Father are one."... From this, knowing that Abba is The High Father, the Ancient of Days, the Lord GOD, if the "Word was with God," and the "Word was God"... "And the Word was made flesh" how can you contradict Jesus being Lord, Jesus being one in the Father. "Let us make man in our own image." Who's the us, the we? It's Elohim (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). Elohim, another name for God, included Abba, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. I could go on and on, but finally, getting back to the other premise of your statement, Allah chose not be personal, and so he is impersonal. Elohim chose to create man and so He is the Creator.

 

[786]

"I and the Father are one."...

JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one [hen]." (NASU)

Just to bring up some sources regarded interpretation of this:

Word Studies of the New Testament by Professor Vincent says the word 'hen' is-

"the neuter, not the masculine είς, one person" (p. 197, vol. II).

A Commentary, Critical, Experimental, and Practical, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown

Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying, 'We (two Persons) are One (Thing).' Perhaps 'one interest' expresses nearly, though not quite, the purport of the saying. (p. 414, vol. III, part I)

I would also argue that the meaning of this verse is 'one' in purpose and 'one' in authority- and what I mean by authority is that because Jesus was a chosen person of God, God did things through Jesus- so God's authority was manifested through Jesus- like other prophets as well.. And If we look at other verses (as this verse is not in a vacuum) we see how exactly was Jesus 'one' with God (Holy Father).

JOHN 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be ONE [hen] even as We are. (NASU)

(Note that Jesus says 'as We are'- he doesn't distinguish his 'oneness' with the oneness that he is asking for with his disciples- Obviously 'one' in purpose and 'morality' is the prayer)

Unless you would like to argue that Jesus was praying that God turn the Trinity into a 15inity? (12 disciples + Trinity)?

A more elaborate (and must I say beautiful) prayer of Jesus:

JOHN 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word; 21 that they all may be ONE [hen], as You, Father, are in me, and I in You; that they also may be ONE [hen] in us, that the world may believe that You sent me. 22 And the glory which You gave me I have given them, that they may be ONE [hen] just as we are ONE [hen]: 23 I in them, and You in me; that they may be made perfect in one [eis], and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them as You have loved me." (NKJV)

I believe it is quite clear what 'oneness' Jesus was talking about. Also if you read the context of John 10:30 they are talking about how no one can take away the sheep from Jesus's hand or his Father's hand and in that they are one- again one in purpose.

From this,

If the following follows from the above (which I just answered) there is no point answering the following but I will go ahead anyways.

knowing that Abba is The High Father, the Ancient of Days, the Lord GOD, if the "Word was with God," and the "Word was God"... "And the Word was made flesh" how can you contradict Jesus being Lord, Jesus being one in the Father.

Lets break it down John 1:1..

In the 'beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God'

First thing to point out- greek doesn't have a capitalized 'God'- the same greek word is used for Satan in another place (I forgot where although I'm sure you can find it online)- The capital 'G' of 'God' is made by the translators... These words could very well read 'In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was god' (small 'g' god means devine or of some special relationship to God)

Let me bring attention to Genesis: 'Let there be Light, and there was Light'- God's Word became 'manifest' - that is it took actual form...

Now 'Word became flesh'- what is so hard to believe about this? God says 'Let there be Light' and it happens 'And there was Light'..

Now this is used in reference to Jesus- why?- Because Jesus was born of a virgin birth- it was a miracle- he was a special creation- what do you think God did? It probably happened like 'Let there be Jesus, and there was Jesus'..... The fact is Jesus was born miraculously and God performs miracles by a simply commanding something (Word) to happen and it happens- so Jesus indeed is a manifestation (flesh) of God's command (Word)- hence it is true that 'Word became flesh'.

By the way this is NOT JESUS speaking.... I said "JESUS never claimed to be God'

If you want clear quotes BY JESUS, here are a few:

1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
John.14:28

2. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3

3. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36

4. "Jesus said to her, `Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them,
`I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
John 20:17

5. “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me." (John 5:30 ESV)

"Let us make man in our own image." Who's the us, the we?

1. Its a plural of respect
2. It was NEVER understood by Jews to be any sort of 'trinity'.
3. Arabic also has a plural of respect- even in the Quran you will see 'us' and 'we'- Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages.

Allah chose not be personal, and so he is impersonal. Elohim chose to create man and so He is the Creator.

To be personal does not require that you come down... If it does then I have yet to meet Jesus, seems to me God chose to be personal only to the people 2000 years ago, but he's impersonal now as I've yet to meet him. I'd love to have a drink with Jesus- you mind giving me his address?

Peace be unto you

 

[Forceman]

Ever heard of the Holy Spirit

JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one [hen]." (NASU)

Just to bring up some sources regarded interpretation of this:

Word Studies of the New Testament by Professor Vincent says the word 'hen' is-



A Commentary, Critical, Experimental, and Practical, Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown



I would also argue that the meaning of this verse is 'one' in purpose and 'one' in authority- and what I mean by authority is that because Jesus was a chosen person of God, God did things through Jesus- so God's authority was manifested through Jesus- like other prophets as well.. And If we look at other verses (as this verse is not in a vacuum) we see how exactly was Jesus 'one' with God (Holy Father).

JOHN 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be ONE [hen] even as We are. (NASU)

(Note that Jesus says 'as We are'- he doesn't distinguish his 'oneness' with the oneness that he is asking for with his disciples- Obviously 'one' in purpose and 'morality' is the prayer)

Unless you would like to argue that Jesus was praying that God turn the Trinity into a 15inity? (12 disciples + Trinity)?

A more elaborate (and must I say beautiful) prayer of Jesus:

JOHN 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word; 21 that they all may be ONE [hen], as You, Father, are in me, and I in You; that they also may be ONE [hen] in us, that the world may believe that You sent me. 22 And the glory which You gave me I have given them, that they may be ONE [hen] just as we are ONE [hen]: 23 I in them, and You in me; that they may be made perfect in one [eis], and that the world may know that You have sent me, and have loved them as You have loved me." (NKJV)

I believe it is quite clear what 'oneness' Jesus was talking about. Also if you read the context of John 10:30 they are talking about how no one can take away the sheep from Jesus's hand or his Father's hand and in that they are one- again one in purpose.




If the following follows from the above (which I just answered) there is no point answering the following but I will go ahead anyways.



Lets break it down John 1:1..

In the 'beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God'

First thing to point out- greek doesn't have a capitalized 'God'- the same greek word is used for Satan in another place (I forgot where although I'm sure you can find it online)- The capital 'G' of 'God' is made by the translators... These words could very well read 'In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was god' (small 'g' god means devine or of some special relationship to God)

Let me bring attention to Genesis: 'Let there be Light, and there was Light'- God's Word became 'manifest' - that is it took actual form...

Now 'Word became flesh'- what is so hard to believe about this? God says 'Let there be Light' and it happens 'And there was Light'..

Now this is used in reference to Jesus- why?- Because Jesus was born of a virgin birth- it was a miracle- he was a special creation- what do you think God did? It probably happened like 'Let there be Jesus, and there was Jesus'..... The fact is Jesus was born miraculously and God performs miracles by a simply commanding something (Word) to happen and it happens- so Jesus indeed is a manifestation (flesh) of God's command (Word)- hence it is true that 'Word became flesh'.

By the way this is NOT JESUS speaking.... I said "JESUS never claimed to be God'

If you want clear quotes BY JESUS, here are a few:

1. "...I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."
John.14:28

2. "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." John 17:3

3. "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36

4. "Jesus said to her, `Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet
ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them,
`I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
John 20:17

5. “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me." (John 5:30 ESV)



1. Its a plural of respect
2. It was NEVER understood by Jews to be any sort of 'trinity'.
3. Arabic also has a plural of respect- even in the Quran you will see 'us' and 'we'- Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages.





To be personal does not require that you come down... If it does then I have yet to meet Jesus, seems to me God chose to be personal only to the people 2000 years ago, but he's impersonal now as I've yet to meet him. I'd love to have a drink with Jesus- you mind giving me his address?

Peace be unto you

Jesus said that the Comforter would be sent in His name, meaning that God's presence would be among man even when He left to Heaven. Jesus said we are his brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers (joint-heirs to the throne of God)- sons of God. Immanuel meaning God with us, through the Holy Spirit, God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) now dwells within us (that's pretty personal).

 

[786]

Jesus said that the Comforter would be sent in His name, meaning that God's presence would be among man even when He left to Heaven.

The Comforter is NOT the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said the Comforter will NOT come until he (Jesus) leaves- and previously somewhere he tells us how the Holy Spirit is there (already)....

Jesus said we are his brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers (joint-heirs to the throne of God)- sons of God.

You mind quoting actual verses, because as I've shown in my previous post you don't seem to take into account context. (and above)

It is interesting that you have chosen to skip very explicit statements by Jesus and have resorted to basic statements (providing no backing biblical evidence) to support your claims.

Peace be unto you

 

[Forceman]

Spirit of God- Holy Spirit

The Comforter is NOT the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said the Comforter will NOT come until he (Jesus) leaves- and previously somewhere he tells us how the Holy Spirit is there (already)....



You mind quoting actual verses, because as I've shown in my previous post you don't seem to take into account context. (and above)

It is interesting that you have chosen to skip very explicit statements by Jesus and have resorted to basic statements (providing no backing biblical evidence) to support your claims.

Peace be unto you

Yes, if you take into account the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit before Jesus revealed it to be the Holy Spirit, the rua'ch hakodesh has always been on Earth, but dwelling in the temple of humans, no. "I saw the Holy Spirit descend on Jesus in bodily form" and it "remained" with Him. Jesus was a prototype for those who come to be called children of light and sons of God. He was the First to have the Holy Spirit descend on Him and remain on Him- remain, and so the Spirit of God would compel people but not fill them and remain with them. Also take into account that when Jesus died, humans didn't need to sacrifice anymore because our sins have been atone for by the High Priest after the "order of Melchizedek". We are now the tabernacle of the Holy Spirit, making our relationship with God more personal. The rua'ch now dwells within us, and if you consider the five wise virgins who filled up, you can draw from this that we must have a filling of the Holy Spirit.

The veil has been rent, and our relationship with God is now extremely personal, and shall be until our union with The One and we are likened onto His glory.

 

[EmptySky]

The Demiurge.

What is the Demiurge concept? Why does it matter? Why should it matter? Read on...

The Demiurge concept, by one name or another, has been around for thousands of years, and is a core component (although one rarely discussed in polite circles) of the Jewish/Christian/Muslim religion. The concept is actually included in early writings associated with the Jewish/Christian religion, although in books omitted from the official doctrines as determined after the gang all got together at the First Council of Nicaea. Basically a bunch of guys got together and figured out the direction they wanted to go, officially, with Christianity, and they determined over time which stories and ideas would be included in the official version.

I don't see the need for these fairy tale justifications for the existence of a demiurge, not when we have mountains of scientific evidence which suggests that nature is imperfectly made. I remember Dawkins explaining in one of his books - perhaps the Blind Watchmaker - that the eye is actually poorly engineered, something to do with the rods and cones being the wrong way round or some such.

Ironically it's in the imperfection of the cosmos that we might find evidence for a creator, rather than in what the traditional Abrahamic religions have believed is its perfection.

It also suggests that members of the Abrahamic faiths may be agents of the Demiurge.

 

[786]

It would be more appropriate if you backed up your claims with biblical quotations?

Jesus said he will send 'another Comforter'- how many Holy Spirits do you have? OBVIOUSLY this 'comforter' is somehow different, and is 'another'- and obviously this means there is already a comforter in presence so that there will be 'another'- The present comforter is 'Jesus'- the new one is by no means a 'Holy Spirit-.... although spirit also means prophet (linguistically) and in that case its a new prophet... But whatever it is, it is not a 'Holy Spirit' which you are talking about.

Peace be unto you