The consequences of the Psychic Realm being proved

[Quantum Quack]

Have been following a few threads for some time and as usual most threads end in the "lack of evidence" to support the personal experience conclusion.

It is fair enough for the skeptic to ask for share-able and "global" evidence in my opinion.

However what I wanted to explore with this thread is part of a study into why psychic experiences seems so difficult to prove in a global way.

The first major question that comes to mind is:

If the realm of psychic ability was eventually proved what would be the consequences in society as we know it?
To me there are many possibe outcomes.
First, it is necessary to realise that the psychic realm is the subject of much curiosity and self experiment.
Would evidence of it's validity drive a major push by most people into experimntation with the psychic. Like the fad of ouigi boards and tarrot readers?
Would this massive increase in experimentation possibly lead to a sudden increase in mental health issues. [ As if proved, illnesses such a schizophrenia would be considered as the result of psychic trauma]
Would there be a sudden increase in hospital admissions and long term mental dysfunction caused by unguided experimentation?

Secondly,
It is obvious even now that many people are morally challenged. If telepathy was proven and [persons had certain telepathic abilities would this not lead to a power , ethical problem. Where by we have the non- telepathic vs the telepathic.
How would ethics play in how the psychic abilities were used?

Do you like having you inner thoughts made public? [ major symptom of schizophrenia is the sense of mental broadcasting - very distressing and cause of much paranoia]

Basically the question comes down to this:
If every one on this planet came to know that the psychic realm had been proven scientifically how would that effect those persons? How would their behavious change as a result of such proof?
Possibly it is this consequence thing that is inhibiting the ability to achieve scientific credibility. Fear of consequences can be enough to shut down any possible ability from ever being proved IMO.
Is this fear justified?

So what is your opinion?

 

[Light]

Have been following a few threads for some time and as usual most threads end in the "lack of evidence" to support the personal experience conclusion.

It is fair enough for the skeptic to ask for share-able and "global" evidence in my opinion.

However what I wanted to explore with this thread is part of a study into why psychic experiences seems so difficult to prove in a global way.

The first major question that comes to mind is:

If the realm of psychic ability was eventually proved what would be the consequences in society as we know it?
To me there are many possibe outcomes.
First, it is necessary to realise that the psychic realm is the subject of much curiosity and self experiment.
Would evidence of it's validity drive a major push by most people into experimntation with the psychic. Like the fad of ouigi boards and tarrot readers?
Would this massive increase in experimentation possibly lead to a sudden increase in mental health issues. [ As if proved, illnesses such a schizophrenia would be considered as the result of psychic trauma]
Would there be a sudden increase in hospital admissions and long term mental dysfunction caused by unguided experimentation?

Secondly,
It is obvious even now that many people are morally challenged. If telepathy was proven and [persons had certain telepathic abilities would this not lead to a power , ethical problem. Where by we have the non- telepathic vs the telepathic.
How would ethics play in how the psychic abilities were used?

Do you like having you inner thoughts made public? [ major symptom of schizophrenia is the sense of mental broadcasting - very distressing and cause of much paranoia]

Basically the question comes down to this:
If every one on this planet came to know that the psychic realm had been proven scientifically how would that effect those persons? How would their behavious change as a result of such proof?
Possibly it is this consequence thing that is inhibiting the ability to achieve scientific credibility. Fear of consequences can be enough to shut down any possible ability from ever being proved IMO.
Is this fear justified?

So what is your opinion?

Well, Quantum, here's my opinion.

We are in just as much danger from that as we are from discovering that Santa IS real and lives at the North Pole. Therefore, I consider it totally, completely and 100% a non-issue. Especially when considering that there are real issues that we should be turning our minds and enegeries to.

And I do realize that you are primarily just posing a thought. And that was only my personal opinion, we'll see what others think.

 

[Quantum Quack]

aww!! every one knows that Santa moved to the south pole to avoid being found....sheesh!!!

 

[MetaKron]

The knowledge of the existence of the pyschic realm may be the one thing that keeps a "schizophrenic" sane. We do have to go on personal experience and something a little like faith for a long time. Just like Marconi, we don't have a thousand years to sit on our keesters like good little children and wait for science to come around. We have to do our own science, sort of like figuring out how a computer works by hacking its operating system. Does anyone else remember when a bright person could disassemble the operating system of his computer by hand and poke what he needed to make it do something that it didn't do before? Many advances have been made by people working in their basements or on the kitchen table. Many more will be.

 

[duendy]

let's remember that when we talk about 'science' needing evidence etc fpr psychic phenomena--you know the ones who can get guite hostile if one contradicts their sciencism....that that isn't meaning ALL scientific endeavour. other sientists poutside the mainstream are open to exploring abot what you are talking about in TRUE SCIENTIFIC WAY...which is open inquiry

what i feel the former's mistake is is to notinvolve heir own consciousness in the exploration of reality under the pretence that they are being objective. it is not so that one can be totally objective. thats a myth and a very dangerous one

 

[Crunchy Cat]

If the realm of psychic ability was eventually proved what would be the consequences in society as we know it?

Hi QQ, I think the biggest consequence would be R&D work for corporate and end-user products. By anology to the biotech market, some products would be real (amoxocillen) and others would be preying on people's beliefs (colloidal silver).

Would evidence of it's validity drive a major push by most people into experimntation with the psychic. Like the fad of ouigi boards and tarrot readers?

Probably, and I suspect it would pass as a fad as historical results would imply that the skill required to achieve the smallest result would be that of a PH.D.

Would this massive increase in experimentation possibly lead to a sudden increase in mental health issues. [ As if proved, illnesses such a schizophrenia would be considered as the result of psychic trauma]
Would there be a sudden increase in hospital admissions and long term mental dysfunction caused by unguided experimentation?

I think the average person's experimentation would be unsuccessful.

Secondly,
It is obvious even now that many people are morally challenged. If telepathy was proven and [persons had certain telepathic abilities would this not lead to a power , ethical problem. Where by we have the non- telepathic vs the telepathic.
How would ethics play in how the psychic abilities were used?

Assuming that level and ease of ability existed, I would assert that it would be govered by law (breaking into someone's mind being no different than say breaking into a bank and stealing things).

Do you like having you inner thoughts made public? [ major symptom of schizophrenia is the sense of mental broadcasting - very distressing and cause of much paranoia]

We're assuming the existince of a 'psychic real' means mental broadcasting is a real thing?

If every one on this planet came to know that the psychic realm had been proven scientifically how would that effect those persons?

It all depends on how contradictory the information is to what they accept.
This can vary wildly.

How would their behavious change as a result of such proof?

I think alot more charleton 'claimers' would step out of the woodwork and the valid 'claimers' would be frustrated at this.

Possibly it is this consequence thing that is inhibiting the ability to achieve scientific credibility. Fear of consequences can be enough to shut down any possible ability from ever being proved IMO.
Is this fear justified?

Not in my opinion. There are always a slew of fearless individuals out there for just about every 'ability' (established or hot off the grill).

 

[Quantum Quack]

Crunchy Cat, Interesting response!!

“ Originally Posted by Quantum Quack
Possibly it is this consequence thing that is inhibiting the ability to achieve scientific credibility. Fear of consequences can be enough to shut down any possible ability from ever being proved IMO.
Is this fear justified? "

Not in my opinion. There are always a slew of fearless individuals out there for just about every 'ability' (established or hot off the grill).

I wasn't just referring to the fear of the operant but the fear of the global community as a whole.

“ Originally Posted by Quantum Quack
Do you like having you inner thoughts made public? [ major symptom of schizophrenia is the sense of mental broadcasting - very distressing and cause of much paranoia] ”

We're assuming the existince of a 'psychic real' means mental broadcasting is a real thing?

Of course to speculate on the real impacts of psy being proven would mean that the broadcsting complaint of persons with Schizophrenia would be considered more than just paranoia. The fear associated with a loss of mental privacy is from my research one of the most scarey aspects of this condition.

If any one realises that their thoughts are not as private as they think they are it would indeed cause som concern.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

QQ,

I wasn't just referring to the fear of the operant but the fear of the global community as a whole.

I think this would be low on the list of 'care abouts' for the global community as psychic ability would be reserved for very few of the population as it is.

Of course to speculate on the real impacts of psy being proven would mean that the broadcsting complaint of persons with Schizophrenia would be considered more than just paranoia. The fear associated with a loss of mental privacy is from my research one of the most scarey aspects of this condition.

If any one realises that their thoughts are not as private as they think they are it would indeed cause som concern.

I am not sure that the existence of a 'psychic realm' would necessarily be related to schizophrenia. I am sure the hypothesis would be tested and if found to be positive then a blocking device could be employed for either party. Based on how I think and how my friends / family have described to me the way they think, the 'receiver' experiences of someone afflicted with schizophrenia don't correspond with the experience of thought.

Just for example, when I think it is predominantly in concept combined with visualization. There aren't words or emotional expression associated with it. When a schizophrenic 'hears' speech that implies words and emotion.

Consequently, I might myself have a mild form of schizophrenia. I persistently have a mental process that will bring music (real or made-up) to my perception (frequently to the point where the experience is 'hearing' the music). I can actively 'shut it off' or 'ignore' it (depending on the situation) and its default state is to be 'on'. I don't think for a second that other people or objects are broadcasting music to me. I know its 100% mind-generated based on my knowledge of how reality works and life-long observations concerning the content and consistency of the experience. This variation in my brain chemistry has also resulted in a really good audiographic memory; although, it doesn't apply to lyrics which suggests the variation doesn't extend to the language center.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Mental broadcasting is horribly real to the person experiencing it. People respond and behave according to your thoughts and there is nothing you can do about it until you get medication. I have experienced this. I think it may be something to do with seeing what happens and then thinking about it afterwards, but the chemical imbalance causes you to get the two swapped about so you think that you thought it before it happened.

peace

c20

 

[MetaKron]

Mental broadcasting is horribly real to the person experiencing it. People respond and behave according to your thoughts and there is nothing you can do about it until you get medication. I have experienced this. I think it may be something to do with seeing what happens and then thinking about it afterwards, but the chemical imbalance causes you to get the two swapped about so you think that you thought it before it happened.

peace

c20

To an abused person, normal stimuli become sources of pain. It might not even be the sensitivity but the interpretation. A given stimulus brings up the memory of a beating or an argument that ended in a beating, so it takes the person down the path to depression and despondency.

In that case that you are talking about, c20, in my experience they really do act out the scenario that you think they are going to act out, and what you anticipate is genuine. If they say something like you're the one who's controlling it, they are lying. It's a setup. Isn't a setup easier to believe than some kind of mental projection thing where you control the actions of others like puppets on a string, but you can never make it work to your benefit? Is it really believable that you personally are some kind of telepathic mutant whose one superpower is to make your own life miserable and unlivable?

They get the ball rolling by playing dirty tricks, like sabotaging your work. They are also willing to outright lie to get you in trouble. Once they trap you in a dysfunctional system, their actions are so predictable that it is like it is choreographed. Any normal mind uses the information it has to predict what it needs to do next, looks ahead to be ready for the next move. In a workplace situation you have to interface with the other workers to have things ready for them to take and do something with. There is a limited set of stimuli and responses to work with, so it doesn't take a genius to know exactly what the next worker is going to do. You've practiced with each other. You know their routines. If you happen to be a reasonable person who expects the behavior of others to be reasonable (rots of ruck), then if they do something perverse you are likely to blame yourself for what they do.

If I play three-card monte at all, it is for diversion only. Rigged games become very predictable. You're usually going to win a few bucks at first, but stick with them and you will lose your shirt, pants, shoes, and socks. That is what gives you the impression that you are controlling someone else's actions to your own detriment. It's a rigged game. I don't like to debunk the paranormal. I have a strong bias for beliefs in telepathy and other kinds of psychic ability. Still, it is a lot easier to believe that a small group of people have consciously decided to behave inappropriately than it is to believe that I have a superpower of mind control that works only to damage my own life. And of course, when they are playing the game, they bank on my vanity to allow or force me to believe that somehow I am really running the show even when I can't keep my job and I'm broke and despondent.

 

[Zephyr]

If the realm of psychic ability was eventually proved what would be the consequences in society as we know it?

I would advise people against lumping all paranormal ideas into one 'realm'. If telepathy were proven, would that mean that astrology is accurate? Not necessarily

So in my opinion, if these things are ever proven they're likely to be proven in bits and pieces rather than all at once. Of course, having proof for telekinesis would accelerated research into all telepathy, clairvoyance and all related phenomena, but that doesn't mean that all of them would end up being true.

Secondly, true doesn't mean useful. What if they show that anyone can, with practise, move tiny particles under a microscope using telekinesis, but only a few very gifted people can move anything bigger? Sure, it'd be a fun fact but it wouldn't make much of a difference in people's lives.

I think that psychic abilities, if they exist, would be like any other abilities - tools. If these tools are dangerous, like owning a gun, the process of training them and their use will be policed by people trained in similar skills (in the same way that the police do not go after gun-waving gangsters with pocketknives...) If they're not dangerous, everybody will be allowed to develop them in much the same way that nearly everyone can learn to play the piano

The advantages? Better understanding of abilities which have been researched. Less mysticism and quackery. Fewer frauds and more uses which actually make the world a better place.

(For example, curing the supposed computer jinx http://ppsociety.com/w_news.php?id=205)

 

[Zephyr]

Just for example, when I think it is predominantly in concept combined with visualization. There aren't words or emotional expression associated with it. When a schizophrenic 'hears' speech that implies words and emotion.

Consequently, I might myself have a mild form of schizophrenia. I persistently have a mental process that will bring music (real or made-up) to my perception (frequently to the point where the experience is 'hearing' the music).

I suppose this is a bit offtopic, but wikipedia has an interesting article on visual thinking. Supposedly a lot of the population are verbal-sequential thinkers, a much smaller proportion are visual-spatial and most people fall somewhere in between, but more to the verbal side.

 

[duendy]

Have been following a few threads for some time and as usual most threads end in the "lack of evidence" to support the personal experience conclusion.

It is fair enough for the skeptic to ask for share-able and "global" evidence in my opinion.

However what I wanted to explore with this thread is part of a study into why psychic experiences seems so difficult to prove in a global way.

The first major question that comes to mind is:

If the realm of psychic ability was eventually proved what would be the consequences in society as we know it?
To me there are many possibe outcomes.
First, it is necessary to realise that the psychic realm is the subject of much curiosity and self experiment.
Would evidence of it's validity drive a major push by most people into experimntation with the psychic. Like the fad of ouigi boards and tarrot readers?
Would this massive increase in experimentation possibly lead to a sudden increase in mental health issues. [ As if proved, illnesses such a schizophrenia would be considered as the result of psychic trauma]
Would there be a sudden increase in hospital admissions and long term mental dysfunction caused by unguided experimentation?

Secondly,
It is obvious even now that many people are morally challenged. If telepathy was proven and [persons had certain telepathic abilities would this not lead to a power , ethical problem. Where by we have the non- telepathic vs the telepathic.
How would ethics play in how the psychic abilities were used?

Do you like having you inner thoughts made public? [ major symptom of schizophrenia is the sense of mental broadcasting - very distressing and cause of much paranoia]

Basically the question comes down to this:
If every one on this planet came to know that the psychic realm had been proven scientifically how would that effect those persons? How would their behavious change as a result of such proof?
Possibly it is this consequence thing that is inhibiting the ability to achieve scientific credibility. Fear of consequences can be enough to shut down any possible ability from ever being proved IMO.
Is this fear justified?

So what is your opinion?

HI.....i notice that troughout your question is te assumption that 'mental illness' is a biological disease......dont you say 'schizophrenia' is a 'proven medical condition' and that it has 'symptoms'....a medical term for biological disease.....?
Well my posiion is clear: there exists NO such proof for your assertions. so i will try and approach you question with this in mind.
For a start you have to understand the paradigm we are in witc is materialistic and states that brian produces consciousness, and thus there is te 'brain/mind' problem which as 'evilved' from te 'mind/body problem' which in its turn has come from the much older dualism between 'spirit' and 'matter'--a favourite
patriarchal psychologically-dividing mytth

Also dig that science as is accepted generally accepts te ongoing assumption that all that exists is matter. so in tis scenario we have te 'scientific method'....it has grown out of this premise.
are you with me? not being patronizing but...ca you understand that as long as we accept te myth of menal illness ten all reported psychic phenomena is going to be grilled thru te heavy mechanical mindset of materialistic science. so it is the LATTER that needs to be challenged, NOT the trying_to_prove to THEM through that materialistic criteria? yeah?,,,,,this is why there isthis impasse. for te materialist agenda is like a brick wall that blocks all real evolution/....or like a straighjacket tat effects even how people feel about themselves. for if there is a real treat that society may see an individual as weird and tus 'mentally ill' ten this acts as a MASSICE inhibitor fro the exprinces of subtler depths of experience

 

[Quantum Quack]

HI.....i notice that troughout your question is te assumption that 'mental illness' is a biological disease......dont you say 'schizophrenia' is a 'proven medical condition' and that it has 'symptoms'....a medical term for biological disease.....?
Well my posiion is clear: there exists NO such proof for your assertions. so i will try and approach you question with this in mind.
For a start you have to understand the paradigm we are in witc is materialistic and states that brian produces consciousness, and thus there is te 'brain/mind' problem which as 'evilved' from te 'mind/body problem' which in its turn has come from the much older dualism between 'spirit' and 'matter'--a favourite
patriarchal psychologically-dividing mytth

Also dig that science as is accepted generally accepts te ongoing assumption that all that exists is matter. so in tis scenario we have te 'scientific method'....it has grown out of this premise.
are you with me? not being patronizing but...ca you understand that as long as we accept te myth of menal illness ten all reported psychic phenomena is going to be grilled thru te heavy mechanical mindset of materialistic science. so it is the LATTER that needs to be challenged, NOT the trying_to_prove to THEM through that materialistic criteria? yeah?,,,,,this is why there isthis impasse. for te materialist agenda is like a brick wall that blocks all real evolution/....or like a straighjacket tat effects even how people feel about themselves. for if there is a real treat that society may see an individual as weird and tus 'mentally ill' ten this acts as a MASSICE inhibitor fro the exprinces of subtler depths of experience

Duendy, I can fully see where you are coming from and where you are going to.
I agree yet I would extend the issue and state that it is more about the angle or slant that an individual has on it that seems to be the main factor.
I personally have had significant psy experience and still do, I have also recognised that the psychic realm is also manifested in the physical realm. What I mean by this is that emotions and feelings and even thought have there relationship to the physical atributes of the organic person. To separate psy from physical is actually a false position. Now we can look at it from a psy perspective through to the physical or we can look at it from the physical perpective through to the psy.

Most medical professionals will take the later perspective and with good reason. To deal with the psy in physical terms allows their thinking to be grounded in the logical rationalism of science, and onto the realms of psychology and metaphysics.
As psychic pheno has yet to be mastered enough to give any open minded scientist reason to believe it as credible it is necessary for the scientists to maintain their staunch rationalism.

However this does not mean that that the psychic realm does not exist, as it only means that it is not able to be evidenced in a way that science requires.

It was a contention of mine and has been a belief held for a long while now that mental disorders have their premise in sensory disorder, this includes senses not normally recognised by science in any real way.
So psychic disorders can and often do lead to serious dysfunction and often labled with terms that hold no significant value to the sufferer. To ignore that the physical symptoms of a psychic disorder are often the physical bodies hormonal reaction to psychic confusion or trauma [ eg. excessive empathy] means that the psychic realm is not grounded in the physical either.
I believe that once the realm is proven great advances in the treatment of most so called mental illnesses would be greatly improved. Just simply labeling schizophrenia as Acute Sensory Disorder makes a huge difference to the sufferer as he now has some insight into his condition that the word schizophrenia fails to provide.
So in essense I agree with you duenby.

 

[duendy]

Duendy, I can fully see where you are coming from and where you are going to.
I agree yet I would extend the issue and state that it is more about the angle or slant that an individual has on it that seems to be the main factor.
I personally have had significant psy experience and still do, I have also recognised that the psychic realm is also manifested in the physical realm. What I mean by this is that emotions and feelings and even thought have there relationship to the physical atributes of the organic person. To separate psy from physical is actually a false position. Now we can look at it from a psy perspective through to the physical or we can look at it from the physical perpective through to the psy.

[[[[[[[[[it depends. in reality both wys are viable, because in reality there is no division between consciousnss and matter/energy. only some our myths, including te materialistic-scientific myth hae indoctrinated us to think and feel tis way...........All i am really saying is that the DEMANDS OF materilaitic science to 'PROVE' 'paranormal/psychic...etc' phenomena via their materialstic tester-kit is limiting. mechanical and mired in a kind of hostil resentment to what is being investigated by most of science. So i woner why it is that people--some people ARE so in awe of the scientific method, which somehow justifies to themselves the autenticity of their very being......?!

Most medical professionals will take the later perspective and with good reason. To deal with the psy in physical terms allows their thinking to be grounded in the logical rationalism of science, and onto the realms of psychology and metaphysics.
As psychic pheno has yet to be mastered enough to give any open minded scientist reason to believe it as credible it is necessary for the scientists to maintain their staunch rationalism.

[[[[[[[[there is science and their is frontier science. the latter is much more open to exploring phenomena which is not tied to a strict labortary like set$setting of 'scientific method'.....a god example of this is the comparison between old style anthropological field research and more 'hands on' style. whereas the old school would attemtp to visit an Indigenous popl and 'objectively' analyze behaviour, which most often would involve rituals where psychedelic sacraments are taken, the new school would join in at all levels, thus gaining a somehwat deeper understanding

However this does not mean that that the psychic realm does not exist, as it only means that it is not able to be evidenced in a way that science requires.

[[[[[[[[again. what science...?? this is a really relevant question now, cause there are now many maverick scientists who are calling into question the 'science' most skepticvs adhere to. te ltter just givs IMPASSE. nowhere to go, cause it is TWO DIFFERENT LANGUAGES. it is the externalized form of the internal psychological division i mentioned about in first post....

It was a contention of mine and has been a belief held for a long while now that mental disorders have their premise in sensory disorder, this includes senses not normally recognised by science in any real way.

[[[[[[[[well , my view is i that if you swop brain disorder fo sensory 'dis-order' we still might be in te same confusion. for WHO is to say what IS dis-order. tis is crucial , for we are living in a world tat is in incredible disorder, yet THAT is not usually addressed as such. get me?

So psychic disorders can and often do lead to serious dysfunction and often labled with terms that hold no significant value to the sufferer. To ignore that the physical symptoms of a psychic disorder are often the physical bodies hormonal reaction to psychic confusion or trauma [ eg. excessive empathy] means that the psychic realm is not grounded in the physical either.
I believe that once the realm is proven great advances in the treatment of most so called mental illnesses would be greatly improved. Just simply labeling schizophrenia as Acute Sensory Disorder makes a huge difference to the sufferer as he now has some insight into his condition that the word schizophrenia fails to provide.
So in essense I agree with you duenby.

i feel that distress in its various forms comes from abuse and suppress of emotions...........let m ask you. and i am not puttin you on te spot. at the mo we are talking on a similarish level......it's just a question that will be an intro for someting i may tell you about next message. when was the last time you danced. not just club style....but really let go into rythym?

 

[Quantum Quack]

about a year ago, why?

 

[duendy]

well, i wasn't happy with your terms 'sensory DIS_ORDER' (emphasis mine) i LOATHE te term 'dis-order'....it is a trm used by Bio-Psychiatry to justify their druggin of 'disorders'....ie., as soon as tey calla a 'condition' A 'dis-order' this gives them the right to diagnose it as a biological disease and are then justified by this pharmacratic culture to lie to people and drug them. including ocercively/

I am saying tat i prefer sensual OPPRESSIOn much more, because when i look at patriarchal culture which carries on via materialitic science, i see just that!
many many people hounded and labelled mentally ill for showin emotions....

When one looke at prepatriarchal peoples and Indigenous poples one sees that Dance was central to their lives--for many. and Dance wasn't just for copping off--as it usually is in Western culture, but for sensual expression which can culminate in ecstasy

I am asking you. HOW many people would feel daft, silly, 'mentally ill' to really let themselves go with dance in our culture?

 

[Quantum Quack]

well, i wasn't happy with your terms 'sensory DIS_ORDER' (emphasis mine) i LOATHE te term 'dis-order'....it is a trm used by Bio-Psychiatry to justify their druggin of 'disorders'....ie., as soon as tey calla a 'condition' A 'dis-order' this gives them the right to diagnose it as a biological disease and are then justified by this pharmacratic culture to lie to people and drug them. including ocercively/

I am saying tat i prefer sensual OPPRESSIOn much more, because when i look at patriarchal culture which carries on via materialitic science, i see just that!
many many people hounded and labelled mentally ill for showin emotions....

When one looke at prepatriarchal peoples and Indigenous poples one sees that Dance was central to their lives--for many. and Dance wasn't just for copping off--as it usually is in Western culture, but for sensual expression which can culminate in ecstasy

I am asking you. HOW many people would feel daft, silly, 'mentally ill' to really let themselves go with dance in our culture?

There is no doubt that oppression of expression can lead to extreme compensatory behaviour.
However this is unfortunately off topic and deserves a thread on it's own.

I do take your criticism of my use of terminology on board and recognise and acknowledge your desire to highlight the issue as you describe.

 

[duendy]

There is no doubt that oppression of expression can lead to extreme compensatory behaviour.
However this is unfortunately off topic and deserves a thread on it's own.

me::::itmost definately is not off-topic. your question is what consequence would it have on culture if psychic realm was proved, rght? tis implies showing up te limitations of mateialistic science, which would mean in its turn exposing te metal illness myth--which is what i try and contribute to wheneve i can. tis would open us up to our suppressed past which included all modes of activity designed to inspre psychic activity, and dancing was always central. think of the South African
!Kung who dance for dys and a major part of te danceis for raising 'psychic energy' '!num'...if i remember term. itis described as a bubbling heat which rises up the spine, and ten is a sense of leaving body, etc

I do take your criticism of my use of terminology on board and recognise and acknowledge your desire to highlight the issue as you describe.

good. which is whati am doing. sure, many people may assume 'psychic' means sitting round a table holding hands, Tarot cards, etc etc etc. but it ismuch braoder tan that. seeing limitations of materialistic paradigm will of course have a completely radical effect on culture

 

[Quantum Quack]

good. which is whati am doing. sure, many people may assume 'psychic' means sitting round a table holding hands, Tarot cards, etc etc etc. but it ismuch braoder tan that. seeing limitations of materialistic paradigm will of course have a completely radical effect on culture

Duendy,
What I was attempting to say was that we can consider the psy as separate from the material or we can consider the psy as material. I see no reason to relegate the psy realm to a non-material realm.
To me the Psychic realm is just as physical as the PC keyboard I am typing on.

I also recognise the need for those materialists to see evidence of the psychic realm in a way that can be evidenced materialy.

In other words it is easier in the long run to show a material value to the realm than to attempt to change the scientific medical communities requirements of material evidence.

To me the realm has just as comprehensive physics as any other science and once proven to be worthy of significant research will attract such.

A few years ago I suggested in this forum a simple trial utilising two rats and two identicle mazes, each rat and maze located in separate parts of the world, say one in London and one in New York. The idea being that for the rats to survive they must rely on the other Rat to intuitively trigger it's own food supply. So one rat must pass a sensor that feeds the other rat and vica versa.

The purpose of the experiment was to demonstrate how one Rat can empathically fullfill it's desire for food by feeding the other rat that is consciously unknown to it.

Now if after many trials we get two rats that have learned to support each other with out knowledge of the other and do so for an indefinite time period. [sustainable manner] it would prove that their is a psychic connection between the rats.

If the rats survive for more than 6 months I am sure it would would provide much reason for scientific exploration and research.
If the rats survive for 2 years even if the mazes are changed in design then would this constitute proof of psychic connectivity?

If it does then what physics are involved in this connectivity?

I personally believe that all behaviour including that of the psy has physical origin. Rather than fight the materialist paradigm, I welcome it.

I do understand that this strenuous need for predictability and repeatability places a great stress on those not able to achieve such but in a way this creates an ongoing need to find a way to achieve predictability and repeatability. [psy at or by deliberate will rather than reflexive or just intuitive]

How ever one thing that would be helpful is that science accept that there is possible validity to psy claims, even if it means holding it all as a hypothetical until proved. This would enable persons showing symptoms of the psychic to be considered in a different light.

edit:
I haven't pursued the "Rats and the maze " idea because I find it morally repugnent to use animals in these sorts of tests. Starving many rats to death just to prove of disprove the psy seems to be a somewhat frivolous use of suffering.