The Clark Kent Dilemma

[ashura]

Silly little thought that's been in my head:

If you were Superman, and you could be aware every possible accident, every possible murder, every possible act of violence, and you had the power to prevent them all so long as you were constantly vigilant, would it be alright for you to maintain a Clark Kent persona? Devote time to a normal life with a job, friends, lovers under the guise of a mild mannered regular Joe, time that took you away from your superhero duties? From an outsider's perspective it's easier to give Superman/Clark a break as we might feel that he's already doing so much, he deserves some relief. But as the man himself? How do you think you would you feel if you were in his big red shoes?

(obviously dropping the suspension of disbelief required to enjoy the Superman movies/comics/tv shows)

 

[visceral_instinct]

He'd be useless due to sleep deprivation if he tried that, and therefore wouldn't make much of a superhero, unless you gave him methedrine or modafinil or some shit.

That notwithstanding, yes, he has the right to a normal life. It's not his fault those things happen.

 

[ashura]

He'd be useless due to sleep deprivation if he tried that, and therefore wouldn't make much of a superhero, unless you gave him methedrine or modafinil or some shit.

That notwithstanding, yes, he has the right to a normal life. It's not his fault those things happen.

Two things:

1. No one said anything about not sleeping. You would still maintain a physically healthy lifestyle in that you would rest, eat, do whatever it is a Superman has to do to stay in good physical condition to do superhero stuff. It's only the Clark Kent, reporter at the Daily Planet, coworker, friend, part of the life that's in question.

2. I already noted that as an outsider it would be easy to allow Superman a break. The question is if you were Superman, could you accept that a death, a violent act, a natural disaster, etc., was occuring while you were being Clark Kent? If you were never Clark and were always Superman, you would end up saving more people.

I should add before anyone decides to bring up a cop or a firefighter that the difference between a regular guy who's a cop and Superman is that the cop doesn't have the ability Superman has to be aware of every bad thing that's happening, or the ability to almost always prevent those bad things. Very different circumstances.

 

[Tiassa]

Tell everybody waitin' for Superman

Superman cannot do everything for people. Sure, he went around the city that one time, getting cats out of trees and catching bank robbers, but the stunt with Lois may have changed him a bit. After that, what was it? Cosmic overlords, breaking dams, Richard Pryor .... In the end, he needs to concentrate his efforts on the larger threats. One of the unfortunate aspects of winning an avatar like Superman is that the society responds by producing challenges to match. I'm not talking about Lex Luthor here. The second Superman movie involved fellow Kryptonians. And what the hell was up with the Supergirl movie? Yikes. But in the end, Superman will be left fighting nuclear-armed cybernetically-enhanced supervillains or such.

We might think of the Legion of Doom.

Or, perhaps, use Spider Man as an example. At the same time Peter Parker gets bitten by an irradiated, genetically-enhanced spider, or whatever, his best friend's father was getting ready to suffer a fateful laboratory accident.

If criminals didn't evolve in response to certain obstacles, humanity could easily defeat certain kinds of crime.

Tell everybody
Waitin'
For Superman,
That they should try to
Hold on
The best they can.
He hasn't dropped them,
Forgot them,
Or anything.
It's just too heavy
For Superman
To lift.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .—Flaming Lips​

 

[Asguard]

ashura, these sort of situations happen in real life you know, take vollie fire fighters and the potentual for bush fires, should they stay chained to there station all summer long in just incase they are out somewhere when a fire starts. The same goes for country GP's, they might be the only doctor for 100's of k's and there is no locum avilable, do they get to take holidays. Then there are ambos who have been working all night and then a call comes in at knock off time, do they take it even if it is cat 2?

 

[TW Scott]

Actually considering that by our standards Superman is practically omnipotent, is it really moral for him to intercede in absolutely every little altercation or crime. After a while we would become so dependant on him that we'd be little more than lemmings keeping him busy saving us. Someone of that power level is best saved for the big stuff. and once in a while for small things that remind us that he does have a human side.

One of the defining traits of Superman, is that while he is arguably all powerful, he does let us handle most of our own garbage. He doens't use his power to make us live a certain way.

 

[draqon]

umm..simply impossible task to pull off. I feel for the Superman.

 

[Simon Anders]

He'd be useless due to sleep deprivation if he tried that,

So all waking moments. Of course he may have super lack of need for sleep.

 

[Simon Anders]

Why would superman have any more responsibility than the rest of us. He could do more with his power, sure. But how many of you spend all your waking moments trying to help other people?

 

[ashura]

ashura, these sort of situations happen in real life you know, take vollie fire fighters and the potentual for bush fires, should they stay chained to there station all summer long in just incase they are out somewhere when a fire starts. The same goes for country GP's, they might be the only doctor for 100's of k's and there is no locum avilable, do they get to take holidays. Then there are ambos who have been working all night and then a call comes in at knock off time, do they take it even if it is cat 2?

I've already mentioned why the fire fighter situation is different. The fire fighters have to sit around in the station to be aware of fires and have to rush over to a fire as fast as possible in their firetruck to put it out. A Superman wouldn't have these limitations. Thanks to his powers, he can know of the situation as soon as it occurs and then be there to diffuse it instantly, no matter where he is. If a fire fighter is at home and off duty, he would have no idea about a breaking fire and no way to stop it. Superman on the other hand, no matter where he is, could be aware of any fires, or accidents, or disasters, etc. and stop them all.

 

[ashura]

Superman cannot do everything for people.

One of the defining traits of Superman, is that while he is arguably all powerful, he does let us handle most of our own garbage. He doens't use his power to make us live a certain way.

I feel like this is going off base a bit. I agree with both of your posts, but they don't really address the question posed in the OP. If YOU were Superman, and YOU were constantly aware of every violent crime, every natural disaster, every major accident, and you had the power to intervene in all of them to save lives or to prevent injuries, would you be okay with having the Clark Kent identity for a large chunk of your time when you could be saving people instead?

 

[ashura]

Why would superman have any more responsibility than the rest of us. He could do more with his power, sure. But how many of you spend all your waking moments trying to help other people?

True, I guess the question is just how much responsibility, if any, does Superman have? If my mother got into an accident and died while Clark Kent was at a press conference, can I blame him for not saving her? Or is he free of guilt even though he could've both been aware of and prevented the accident within seconds?

Unlike similar questions posed to an arbitrary and mysterious god in religious discussions, Superman would be an actual tangible knowable god amongst men.

 

[CarpetDiem]

I though Superman hung around Metropolis, like batman chilled as Bruce West in Gotham City and Peter Parker as Spiderman in ? city. I can't recall any of these comic book heroes saving peope from the death squads in Chile or Pol Pot or anyone overseas,' cept for Lex Luther in space. But if I was superman, of course I could co-exist. Its about choosing what you could control and leaving the rest to society and the police, which incidentally figure heavily in the comics in any event.

 

[ashura]

Superman has been shown in different mediums to be all over the world. In the movies you have foreign correspondents describing his feats in different countries, in the comics you have his involvement in African and Middle Eastern terrorist/tribal affairs, etc. The problem with leaving it to the police and fire fighters and paramedics is that they're fallible in a way that you're not. You could hear a girl screaming from a burning house from miles away, and you could also hear fire trucks with their sirens on making their way to the fire, and in theory they should be able to get their in time to put out the fire and save the girl, but that's not a guarantee. Your involvement on the other hand would be a guarantee, you could save that girl and put out that fire without a doubt. What could you choose to defer to normal people and when would you do the deferring? Going back to my other post, does your being Clark Kent at a press conference while a girl is trapped in a burning house mean anything?

 

[Simon Anders]

True, I guess the question is just how much responsibility, if any, does Superman have? If my mother got into an accident and died while Clark Kent was at a press conference, can I blame him for not saving her? Or is he free of guilt even though he could've both been aware of and prevented the accident within seconds?

Unlike similar questions posed to an arbitrary and mysterious god in religious discussions, Superman would be an actual tangible knowable god amongst men.

And while you were typing in your post you could have been 1) sending money to a good charity that will feel starving kids somewhere in the world 2) roaming the streets of a major city where there has been a series of rapes hoping to catch the perpetrator just before another crime 3) brainstorming solutions to some issue like unclean drinking water in the third world 4) starting a letter writing campaign to help those in trouble in Darfur 5) voluteering at a homeless shelter where a kind word and some support might get someone off the streets back in the work world and not dying at an early age.....

and so on.

Superman is unbelievably effective. But the truth is if you made it your only goal you too could probably save lives if you switched activities.

And so the families of those who you would have saved could conceivably come to you, or could complain about all 'selfish' westerners or whatever.

I like your question. I am not trying to undermine it, but the truth is, I believe, we all face Superman's choice. And if he can be judged, so can we.

 

[Asguard]

I've already mentioned why the fire fighter situation is different. The fire fighters have to sit around in the station to be aware of fires and have to rush over to a fire as fast as possible in their firetruck to put it out. A Superman wouldn't have these limitations. Thanks to his powers, he can know of the situation as soon as it occurs and then be there to diffuse it instantly, no matter where he is. If a fire fighter is at home and off duty, he would have no idea about a breaking fire and no way to stop it. Superman on the other hand, no matter where he is, could be aware of any fires, or accidents, or disasters, etc. and stop them all.

actually your wrong there, my uncle was in the CFA (country fire association) in victoria. He (like all the rest of the CFA vollies) had a GRN (goverment radio network, the federal goverment run emerency services communications network) radio atached to his phone so when the siren went off at the station to call them in he already knew what it was, where it was ect assuming he was home. The on call ambos are the same but take this situation:

You have an ambo crew, they are the only one working out of that station (the next station might be 100km away, we are talking country NOT city here) a call comes in cat 2 (check below for translation). Now at least 50% of Cat 2 calls are wrongly labled as Cat 2 when they should be Cat 3. They are exusted from a 14 hour shift but if they DONT go someone MAY die. Of course if they DO go someone may die in a trafic acident from there own mestake caused by fatigue. If they dont the pt may have to wait up to an hour for the second ambo to get there (ambulances can only go 40km\h above the speed limit lights and sirencs by policy, if they are going faster and they get caught by a speed camra THEY have to justify it to the judge the ambulance service wont help and if they lose there licence they lose there job) Do they go?


Note: there are 6 catigories for pt treatment\transfer but the relivent ones are 1, 2 and 3
Cat 1: 2 ambos (one goes Cat 2), lights and sirens. Dispached to pts which are basically clinically dead. Specifically unconcious, NO airway, NO breathing or NO pulse

Cat 2: 1 ambo, lights and sirens. Dispatched to pts which have a high risk of dying. Compromised breathing, airway, cirulation. Most heart atacks are cat 2 cases in that they involve shortness of breath or chest pain (now you see where the high miss catigorisation happens of course)

Cat 3: risk of disability. Baiscally "sick" pts come under this, vomiting, heamoraging but not life threatning ect. This is the biggest work load though alot of these cases are incorectly put as Cat 2

 

[Roman]

Superman cannot do everything for people. Sure, he went around the city that one time, getting cats out of trees and catching bank robbers, but the stunt with Lois may have changed him a bit. After that, what was it? Cosmic overlords, breaking dams, Richard Pryor .... In the end, he needs to concentrate his efforts on the larger threats. One of the unfortunate aspects of winning an avatar like Superman is that the society responds by producing challenges to match. I'm not talking about Lex Luthor here. The second Superman movie involved fellow Kryptonians. And what the hell was up with the Supergirl movie? Yikes. But in the end, Superman will be left fighting nuclear-armed cybernetically-enhanced supervillains or such.

We might think of the Legion of Doom.

Or, perhaps, use Spider Man as an example. At the same time Peter Parker gets bitten by an irradiated, genetically-enhanced spider, or whatever, his best friend's father was getting ready to suffer a fateful laboratory accident.

If criminals didn't evolve in response to certain obstacles, humanity could easily defeat certain kinds of crime.

So are you saying that superheros exist to fight supervillains, and petty crime is for the cops?

I think Ashura is talking about the earliest of Superman comics where all he does is wail on crooks.

 

[Roman]

True, I guess the question is just how much responsibility, if any, does Superman have?

"With great power comes great responsibility."

So, according to Uncle Ben- shitloads.

If my mother got into an accident and died while Clark Kent was at a press conference, can I blame him for not saving her?

Yes.
But that doesn't mean Superman is ever obliged to help you.

 

[Tiassa]

This and that

I feel like this is going off base a bit. I agree with both of your posts, but they don't really address the question posed in the OP.

Fair enough, but I do think it's a tough question.

I think it's a matter of practicality, but that's vague, and it'll take some time to clarify what that means. I'll give it some more thought.

• • •​

So are you saying that superheros exist to fight supervillains, and petty crime is for the cops?

I just think that Superman can't be everywhere at once. He can't do everything that needs to be done.

One practical way to look at it is that crimes aren't usually so polite as to occur in an orderly fashion with useful intervals in between. What do you do, then, if you're in the middle of handling a hydrogen bomb in Paris, and an earthquake breaks a dam in China? Flip a coin?

In the sense of the early comic books, there are still too many criminals to account for all at once. Something's gotta give.

 

[Roman]

One practical way to look at it is that crimes aren't usually so polite as to occur in an orderly fashion with useful intervals in between. What do you do, then, if you're in the middle of handling a hydrogen bomb in Paris, and an earthquake breaks a dam in China? Flip a coin?

Superman can fly so fast around the earth he can go backwards in time. I don't think the distance from Paris to China is that great.

In more recent comic books, to make Superman fallible, they made him an idiot. Though capable of all sorts of great stuff, Superman just doesn't perform because he's something of a gullible moron. I think he lacks the ability to be in both places at once, since he's easily tricked, not due to any physical constraint.