The Church

Taken

Registered Senior Member
When you mention church today so many people groan as if the very mention of the world conjures up images they would rather forget.

Perhaps being forced to go to church as a youngster, or bad encounters with churchgoers, has left the impression that God is boring. I don't know how God can be made to sound boring - but some churches have it down to a fine art.

How can the Creator of the Universes, the master of time and space, the very being whose power and light keep the world together be considered boring. Scarey yes, awesome certainly, magnificent and mysterious without doubt - but boring - no way!

Just what is going on in churches today that makes people want to stay away in droves? Why is going to church is on so many people's hate lists?
They'd rather go to the movies, watch a video, read a book, listen to music, visit a nightclub, talk with friends, go for a long walk, hide under the sheets - anything but go to church.

The church is supposed to be conveying wonderful truths about God but has become involved in so much tradition and ritual that it's missing the point - young people in particular, just don't relate anymore.

The idea that the church is a building or a specific place where God hangs out is an illusion. God is God. Any building, no matter how big, could not contain even his big toe - supposing of course he has one.

Most outsiders still identify church as an occasion where you dress fit to attend a funeral and are bound by a rigid set of thou-shalt-not's. To many, the church is seen as irrelevant to today's culture.

However, God does ask us to gather together but that doesn't mean the buildings where we hang out become holy or qualify the pastor infallible.

The world has found many unkind ways to describe the church-goer. Those who wear the tag Christian are often imagined as dogmatic, legalistic, moralists, fanatics, Jesus nuts (actually the name of the nut that holds the rotor blade on a helicopter) and the worst of all hypocrites; those who's lives do not measure up to what they profess.

It is a rare occasion when you hear of the person with genuine faith who shines as a light in the community showing godly love and wisdom, unselfishness and insight. Yet many people do express those exact qualities. Unfortunately it is often the bad example of the days events that claims most attention, like front page news.

Today's church buildings with their gold adornments, carefully carved pulpit, silver collection plates and lavish stained glass windows (dedicated to the memory of Mrs Dour and Mr Moneybags, who passed away after 50 years of faithful pew sitting) are the last places the average earthbound human would look for heavenly alternatives.

To God, the church is a body of people throughout the world who have put him first in their lives. It does not have a name like Anglican, Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal or Charismatic. Its leader is not the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope.

It’s leader is Jesus Christ and love is the glue that binds believers together. You will know these people by their actions and by the words they speak. If they don't act like Christians then they probably aren't.

The church may one day be an irrelevant - if not irreverent oddity - but God will never become old fashioned. He's the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and he won't change or go away no matter how you try and gift wrap him or tell people he's dead or has retired on the royalties of his book.

To survive into the next century the church must be relevant to the age in which it shares God's eternal truths. There are two extremes today, the dry bones Sunday only meetings where people go out of a sense of loyalty, and the glamorous TV style evangelists who have developed the art of preaching the contents out of your pocket rather than the sin out of your soul.

Part of the problem, in my experience, is that the church is building and promoting an alternative culture rather than encouraging its members to be more effective in the existing one. It has alienated its membership so its membership slowly walked out the door.

The church is generally about 10-years behind the world when it should be 10 years ahead.

Christians must know their own hearts, speak and act with authority in their chosen fields and become involved - whether it is music, manufacturing, public service, politics, education or the pulpit the pulpit.

Recognition should not come because they're Christians, but because they're damn good at what they do. Rampant street preaching is nowhere near as effective as getting on with the job of being the best person you possible can be.

Bible-banging and shoving the gospel down people's throats under threat of fire and brimstone is just not on. It creates more cynics than converts.

There is room for social activism, for righteous anger, for causes and issues from visiting the sick and old to championing human rights, saving the dolphins and whales and protesting unfair laws, corruption and injustice.

The church must be a force to be reckoned with - its voice must be heard but not only as a right wing, fundamentalist organisation but as a body of people who have compassion for the poor and the hurting. Christ was not a politician - he was a social revolutionary - an agent of change sent on a mission to bring believers together on common ground to change the world.

The Holy Spirit is God's agent in this age and he is moving throughout all the world not just in churches but in pubs, whorehouses, hospitals and homes - wherever people are
For many street-wise people, arriving at church has come at the end of a long spiritual and intellectual journey. Solid, relevant teaching is essential. Re-runs of The Cross and the Switchblade or sermons that evoke memories or Sunday School of old will not appeal.

Often such newcomers have to find their own spiritual food when the pulpit message falls short, or when the preaching platform becomes a podium for cheerleaders to steer the congregation through 90 minute sing-a-longs.

These people need a deep grasp of the faith - they need to get into the solid heart of the Bible. They haven't come to be talked down to or to be drilled in church doctrine. They have come because they want to know about Jesus Christ, about miracles and the new life promised to believers.

There seems to be a general philosophy of preaching basics over and over again until, after a year or two in the same church, everything begins to have a familiar ring. So where's the challenge, where's the state of the nation overview, the prophecy, the words of knowledge, the gifts of discernment and the overpowering love and healing?

Once we realise God is bigger than our preconceptions and our doctrines perhaps church gatherings will become more invigorating occasions with a practical role to play in keeping society sane and healthy.

When the clamour gives way to silence, when repeat sermons give way to Spirit inspiration, when we love our neighbour as ourselves then Christ will cause new form to rise where there was once only dry bones.


By Keith Newman
 
Thank you, Taken, I think you have expressed my feeling on the sujbject very nicely. In fact, accurately. I have long had this problem with a church-body that has fell out of step with its congregation. As such it no longer serves its congregation but has become a self-perpetuating enitity wrapped up in the speading of not Christian-beliefs but how best to become bigger at the expense of your wallet. Not of spreading the message of brotherly love but the spreading of hell fire and damnation. Of threating rather than encouraging. Take Tony1 for example; here is a self proclaimed christian who insists on being a thorn rather than a model. Now he is good at pulling scripture out and pulling context out of a reasoned thought. But rarely do I see him encourage and forgive. Maybe, in fairness to him, he is beset by a lot of members of this forum and put on the spot. That does not encourage the forthcoming of such expressions of brotherly love. At the same time that is the precepts that should be stressed. Maybe I have missed something here. I am sure that Tony1 will have his say.
 
The Church.

A very honest and relevant post Taken.

I hope it can spark off a discussion whereby we can try to come to some conclusion.

Love

Jan Ardena.
 
*Originally posted by Taken
The church may one day be an irrelevant - if not irreverent oddity ....
*

That'll never happen.
The body of Christ will outlive the universe.

*The church is generally about 10-years behind the world when it should be 10 years ahead.*

It's an eternity ahead.
What are you (or Keith) talking about?

*Recognition should not come because they're Christians, but because they're damn good at what they do.*

What for?
Besides, what good will it do you to be good at what you do, and damned at the same time?
That's not what Christians are; that's what heathens are.

Do you think Moses parted the Red Sea skillfully?

*There is room for social activism, for righteous anger, for causes and issues from visiting the sick and old to championing human rights, saving the dolphins and whales and protesting unfair laws, corruption and injustice.*

Just a mere question, but what are you going to save the whales for?
They will just be crispy critters when Jesus returns.

*There seems to be a general philosophy of preaching basics over and over again until, after a year or two in the same church, everything begins to have a familiar ring. So where's the challenge, where's the state of the nation overview, the prophecy, the words of knowledge, the gifts of discernment and the overpowering love and healing?*

In churches that aren't dead.
There are a lot of them around, but apparently not the one you (or Keith) go to.

*Originally posted by wet1
Take Tony1 for example; here is a self proclaimed christian who insists on being a thorn rather than a model.
*

A thorn?
As I recall, the Pharisees were somewhat ticked off.
There were some words about Jesus having a demon.

I must be doing something wrong if I'm only being accused of being a thorn.
 
Tony...I find myself wondering what the argument is here...the post clearly differentiated between a building called a church and the true church which is all believers around the world held together by Jesus as opposed to a pastor of some form. The idea wasn't that the "TRUE" church which is this body of Christ would die but that the buildings would...do you not agree?


I repost:

To God, the church is a body of people throughout the world who have put him first in their lives. It does not have a name like Anglican, Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal or Charismatic. Its leader is not the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope. It’s leader is Jesus Christ and love is the glue that binds believers together. You will know these people by their actions and by the words they speak. If they don't act like Christians then they probably aren't.

The church (ie...the elaborate buildings and denominations) may one day be an irrelevant - if not irreverent oddity - but God will never become old fashioned. He's the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and he won't change or go away no matter how you try and gift wrap him or tell people he's dead or has retired on the royalties of his book.




As a Christian, if one is to proclaim Christianity, would it not shine thru in EVERY aspect of ones life? Would not the principles and foundations Jesus laid out for our lives not hold true in every aspect? Would we not then be the best we could be where ever God can use us, regardless of our home, career, and social position?

Saveing the whales? Well although I think we as men are a bit haughty in thinking the world needs us, or could be destroyed or saved by us, I do think that loving God would naturally come with a respect for life and His wonderouse creation.

Unfortunatly Tony a LOT of Churches are dead. And since the entire world can't travel to our nieghborhood and fit in our little sanctuaries...we as Christians need to recognize and attempt to address the problem as it does exist.


Paul thanked God for the thorn in his side that helped to keep him focused. So I suppose even thorns are not with out reason in that they spur people on to some reaction...Just as Tony so eloquently quotes.."Gods words do not return to Him void." They will ALWAYS serve the purpose that GOD intended them to.
 
*Originally posted by Taken
Tony...I find myself wondering what the argument is here...the post clearly differentiated between a building called a church and the true church which is all believers around the world held together by Jesus as opposed to a pastor of some form. The idea wasn't that the "TRUE" church which is this body of Christ would die but that the buildings would...do you not agree?
*

Yes, no, hard to say, since you seem to be heading toward some kind of all-in-one religion, where one-belief-fits-all.

First of all, the body of Christ will have to die otherwise it can't be born again.

*If they don't act like Christians then they probably aren't.*

Oh oh.
Should I make a whip and chase all the merchandisers out of churches with it?

*The church (ie...the elaborate buildings and denominations) may one day be an irrelevant - if not irreverent oddity - but God will never become old fashioned.*

That one day would have to be the day of the Lord.
Missing the point won't be going out of style any time soon, so I can't see how those elaborate buildings would either, seeing as they are part and parcel of missing the point in a lot of cases.

*Would we not then be the best we could be where ever God can use us, regardless of our home, career, and social position?*

You still haven't dealt with how Moses parted the Red Sea.
Was he the best he could be, or was he a guy carrying a stick?

*I do think that loving God would naturally come with a respect for life and His wonderouse creation.*

God is not a respecter of persons, so why would whales appear on his list?

*we as Christians need to recognize and attempt to address the problem as it does exist.*

Why would we need to "attempt to address" problems?
We can tell them to go away.

Following that line of reasoning a little further, what could Moses have done to "attempt to address" the problem of crossing the Red Sea?

*Paul thanked God for the thorn in his side that helped to keep him focused.*

He didn't.
He asked God to take it away.

But, you're missing the point.
The thorn comment is similar to when people said Jesus had a demon.
It's just wet1's polite way of saying he doesn't agree with me.
 
"One belief fits all"????????????? MEE???????????????
Now isn't that the pot calling the kettle black. You who thinks it's your congregations way or the highway? You who thinks that anyone who differs with your discernment of the truth of the scriptures is a sinner or demon possesed?

There is no one belief fits all...that is your grand idea....My idea is that there is One God fits all. For there is only One and He isn't under copyright.

As for the whales, I don't recall putting them above the needs of our fellow man, however; they were in fact created by the same 'hand" that created me and given to us for our pleasure as was all of His creation...Should I disregard it and have no reverance or appreciation of the wonderouse works He has made? Should I hold myself in such high esteem as to spit at His wonders and have no love for the work of my own Father?

As for Moses...Isreal was held in slavery for generations, they had little or NO education or free time to teach their own children. Moses grew up in the house of the Pharoa where he was educated by the best teachers and had he not done well or taken that opportunity then the writting of the Bible from a first hand account may have been a bit difficult don't ya think?

We do a service when we make the most of ALL opportunitys afforded us no matter how meager or mundane they may seem at the time. Do the very best you can in the spot you have been given.
(And I did address the Sea parting...actually though, it WASN'T the Red Sea that was parted, it was the REED SEA. Moses didn't part it. He followed the commision God gave him and God parted it when that path led Moses and Isreal to it. Moses just had enough faith in God to follow directions.


Paul asked God to remove the thorn...just as Jesus asked God to spare his life :O)...but they had enough reasoning to see it was for the better that Gods will be done and that it would be for the good...i.e. a blessing.
 
*Originally posted by Taken
"One belief fits all"????????????? MEE???????????????
Now isn't that the pot calling the kettle black. You who thinks it's your congregations way or the highway? You who thinks that anyone who differs with your discernment of the truth of the scriptures is a sinner or demon possesed?
*

Yes, you.
You just explained how there are TWO opposing beliefs the way I look at things.
BTW, what congregation?

*There is no one belief fits all...that is your grand idea....My idea is that there is One God fits all. For there is only One and He isn't under copyright.*

Yes, except that you figure if you combine enough Christian, atheist, Hindu, pagan, etc beliefs into one religion, you'll somehow get everyone to agree with you.
It's been done, and it doesn't work.
It's called the Catholic church.

*Should I disregard it and have no reverance or appreciation of the wonderouse works He has made? Should I hold myself in such high esteem as to spit at His wonders and have no love for the work of my own Father?*

Very funny.
Apparently, you have no idea what "reverence" means.

God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
(Psalms 89:7, KJV).

You can spend your time worshipping whales if you want.
I'll spend mine worshipping God.

*As for Moses...Isreal was held in slavery for generations, they had little or NO education or free time to teach their own children. Moses grew up in the house of the Pharoa where he was educated by the best teachers and had he not done well or taken that opportunity then the writting of the Bible from a first hand account may have been a bit difficult don't ya think?*

Sounds like a devastating argument, until you have to figure out how the first person to write anything at all, learned to write.

But getting back to Moses, you must have forgotten how he was a murderer and had to run away and tend sheep for forty years.
I wonder how many people would remember their "higher" education after forty years of tending sheep?

*We do a service when we make the most of ALL opportunitys afforded us no matter how meager or mundane they may seem at the time. Do the very best you can in the spot you have been given.*

That is soooooooooo lame.
When I give instructions to an employee, I don't want him doing his "best."
I want him to do what I said.

*(And I did address the Sea parting...actually though, it WASN'T the Red Sea that was parted, it was the REED SEA. Moses didn't part it. He followed the commision God gave him and God parted it when that path led Moses and Isreal to it. Moses just had enough faith in God to follow directions.*

Are you sure it wasn't the Roid sea?
Besides, he had to wave the stick.
If he hadn't waved the stick, nothing would have happened.

*Paul asked God to remove the thorn...just as Jesus asked God to spare his life :O)...but they had enough reasoning to see it was for the better that Gods will be done and that it would be for the good...i.e. a blessing. *

I think you missed the point by a mile, as usual.
Paul asked God to remove it, and God didn't.
Here's the part you missed...
God gave him the strength to deal with it himself.

Just like Moses' case, Moses could have stood there on his own waving a stick for ever and the breeze just wouldn't have parted the RED sea.
Add God, and the sea parted.
 
Are you now disputing your earlier argument that Gods intervention isn't necesary but that YOU can mearly speak and things will occur based on the power of YOUR words?

Gee my Dad was out of school for well over forty years before he died and he still knew how to write.

I'm not combining anything...if the teachings of Jesus bare resemblance to teachings in other doctrines, then perhaps those doctrines were influenced by good men who also knew God.

Everyone doesn't agree with me, and they don't need to. Their life and salvation are for them to discern and decide not for me, it is far to important a thing to just take anyones word for it.

I don't know any Catholics, but you sure seem to have it out for them. In that defense let me say that the Christian church in it's original undenominated state adopted Pagan feasts and rituals and holidays to accomidate the converts, long before the word Catholic was ever heard.


Let me use a word other then reverance that won't offend you or give you cause to find fault....Oh Gee, there are none! Worship whales? How old are you? Get a grip and try to have a mature conversation instead of flailing around like an idiot when you can't get the upper hand in a discussion.
 
*Originally posted by Taken
Are you now disputing your earlier argument that Gods intervention isn't necesary but that YOU can mearly speak and things will occur based on the power of YOUR words?
*

Is your mind on hold?
Consider the restaurant thing.
You say, "I want bacon and eggs."
Next thing you know, bacon and eggs appear in front of you.
Words have power.

*Gee my Dad was out of school for well over forty years before he died and he still knew how to write.*

Amazing!
And he didn't write a single word during the entire forty years to stay in practice?
Wow?

*I'm not combining anything...if the teachings of Jesus bare resemblance to teachings in other doctrines, then perhaps those doctrines were influenced by good men who also knew God.*

Those aren't the doctrines I'm talking about.
I'm talking about the doctrines you make up yourself.

*Everyone doesn't agree with me, and they don't need to. Their life and salvation are for them to discern and decide not for me...*

Great way to ward off the lost.

*I don't know any Catholics, but you sure seem to have it out for them. In that defense let me say that the Christian church in it's original undenominated state adopted Pagan feasts and rituals and holidays to accomidate the converts, long before the word Catholic was ever heard.*

Sure, and the Pope is Baptist.
No Christian church adopted pagan rituals.
And it was the Catholic church that did, after all it's been around almost as long as Christianity.

*Let me use a word other then reverance that won't offend you or give you cause to find fault....Oh Gee, there are none!*

Exactly.
Worship God or worship whales.
Feel free to choose.
 
Are we comparing you legion of demons to eggs? You got me there, I didn't realize satan was in the service industry. Did you tip the demon for leaving the body on your command?

You shall have to refresh my memory...where exactly is the Bible passage about Moses not writting for 40 years?

No you definatly said I was combining Hindu, Christian, pagan....etc etc,

I don't ward off the lost, I give them cause to believe, to see something different and peacefull, to look a little farther.

You on the other hand show them contempt, bigotry, selfishness, haughtyness, and ignorance.

Find a legitimate point if you wish to discuss it, anyone with a 5th grade education can read well enough to know no one here has suggested worshipping whales, except you.
When you get backed in to a corner you tend to leave your Bible and head straight for foolishness, makeing things up, correcting grammer, and depening on Websters for validation. Doesn't that seem odd to you?

Jesus made clear that God cared for and fed the animals, they are a gift to us, if you chose to be too noble and god-like to care for or appreciate that gift so be it, you can take that up with God not me.
 
"Jesus made clear that God cared for and fed the animals,"

And you say Tony takes things out of context... The point was to say "if God cares for the animals, how much more do you think he cares for you?" Since WE are far more important than animals to God considering the following...

He also killed a couple to make clothes for Adam and Eve. He also had then sacrificed to him. He also said it was okay to eat them.

Animals are for our use whatever that may be. God never advocated vegitarianism.

Ben
 
Exactly Kalvin, I said they are not above man but are a GIFT to man and we should have appreciation for that...we should have an appreciation and thankfullness for ALL of Gods creation. If you care to read all of the thread it wouldn't be necesary for me to tell you that. If you wish to speak for yourself we can talk, if you are just here to speak for Tony again then don't bother, I will take him at HIS words not yours.
 
*Originally posted by Taken
Are we comparing you legion of demons to eggs?
*

You might be, but I'm not.

*Did you tip the demon for leaving the body on your command?*

Yeah, I can give it a tip.
How is "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out?"

*You shall have to refresh my memory...where exactly is the Bible passage about Moses not writting for 40 years?*

I think you're memory is beyond hope.
You tied in your dad's writing to Moses' Egyptian education.
I know it's way past you to figure out the analogy, but there it is anyway.

*No you definatly said I was combining Hindu, Christian, pagan....etc etc,*

That is correct.
That is how you are making them up.
You don't seriously think that I would credit you for a new religious idea, do you?

*Find a legitimate point if you wish to discuss it, anyone with a 5th grade education can read well enough to know no one here has suggested worshipping whales, except you.*

Too bad you quit in the 4th grade.
You didn't just suggest it, you were recommending it.

*When you get backed in to a corner you tend to leave your Bible and head straight for foolishness, makeing things up, correcting grammer, and depening on Websters for validation. Doesn't that seem odd to you?*

It seems odd that you would think I was in a corner when you are jammed so far into a corner that all you can think of is worshipping whales.

*Jesus made clear that God cared for and fed the animals, they are a gift to us, if you chose to be too noble and god-like to care for or appreciate that gift so be it, you can take that up with God not me. *

The gift is their death in our service.
Of course I'm going to look after a cow that I'm fattening up for slaughter.
I wouldn't want to eat just skin and bones.

OTOH, you wish to worship whales.
That's a little different.
 
Back
Top