The black hole "frozen star" interpretation is the one that's right
- Thread starter Farsight
- Start date
It is almost like no one is paying any attention to you... Hmmm
Mathematically perhaps. Mathematical imagination .
What form of matter ; energy really ; physically , infinitely collapsed ?
Before this infinite " collapse "
What form of matter ; energy really ; physically , infinitely collapsed ?
Before this infinite " collapse "
Perhaps
Or thinking
And of course, the "dying pulse train"invalidates any Frozen Star nonsense.
http://www.messagetoeagle.com/dyingpulsetr.php
http://www.indiana.edu/~geol105/images/gaia_chapter_1/death_spiral.htm
Death Spiral' Around a Black Hole Yields Tantalizing Evidence of an Event Horizon
NASA PRESS RELEASE NO.: STScI-PR01-03
Black holes and Galaxy Formation
Black holes and micro-lensing
NASA's Hubble Space Telescope may have, for the first time, provided direct evidence for the existence of black holes by observing the disappearance of matter as it falls beyond the "event horizon."
Joseph F. Dolan, of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, MD, observed pulses of ultraviolet light from clumps of hot gas fade and then disappear as they swirled around a massive, compact object called Cygnus XR-1. This activity is just as would have been expected if the hot gas had fallen into a black hole.
"We are trying to establish the existence of black holes by obtaining observational evidence that rules out more exotic things, just as previous observations of black hole candidates have ruled out less exotic things," says Dolan, who is presenting his findings today at the American Astronomical Society meeting in San Diego, CA.
An event horizon is the mysterious region surrounding a black hole that forever traps light and matter straying nearby. By definition, no astronomical object other than a black hole can possess an event horizon.
Black holes have been inferred by observing the furious whirlpool motion of trapped gas and estimating how much mass is crammed into the tiny region of space the black hole occupies.
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What trapped gas ?
And of course the more recent verifications of BH's with the EH telescope images.
What about this photo verifies the Existence of a BH ?
Half the photo is faded , the top half . Why?
https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/bb7q2o/how_to_understand_the_image_of_a_black_hole/
This subject and the validity of the EHT images was also discussed here......
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/eht-first-image-of-black-hole.161766/
This subject and the validity of the EHT images was also discussed here......
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/eht-first-image-of-black-hole.161766/
This image of a BH was fabricated from a series of radio telescopes from around the world, and so obviously are not actual visible light we generally recognise in photographs. The image though is just as valid, being a composition of the radio images and an accurate visual representation as presented by Janus in the EHT thread.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01155-0
The Event Horizon Telescope’s global network of radio dishes has produced the first-ever direct image of a black hole and its event horizon.
Astronomers have finally glimpsed the blackness of a black hole. By stringing together a global network of radio telescopes, they have for the first time produced a picture of an event horizon — a black hole’s perilous edge — against a backdrop of swirling light.
“We have seen the gates of hell at the end of space and time,” said astrophysicist Heino Falcke of Radboud University in Nijmegen, the Netherlands, at a press conference in Brussels. “What you’re looking at is a ring of fire created by the deformation of space-time. Light goes around, and looks like a circle.”
more at link..........................
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01155-0
The Event Horizon Telescope’s global network of radio dishes has produced the first-ever direct image of a black hole and its event horizon.
Astronomers have finally glimpsed the blackness of a black hole. By stringing together a global network of radio telescopes, they have for the first time produced a picture of an event horizon — a black hole’s perilous edge — against a backdrop of swirling light.
“We have seen the gates of hell at the end of space and time,” said astrophysicist Heino Falcke of Radboud University in Nijmegen, the Netherlands, at a press conference in Brussels. “What you’re looking at is a ring of fire created by the deformation of space-time. Light goes around, and looks like a circle.”
more at link..........................
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The dying pulse train isn't necessarily evidence of anything. We already know that light dims and is red-shifted as it approaches a black hole region. These "dying pulses" could just be red-shifting below our equipment's ability to detect them without actually crossing any hard barrier.
The frozen star model would predict infinite redshift at the center of the mass, just as the current interpretation of black holes in GR predict infinite redshift at the event horizon. Additionally, the speed of accretion disks tell us nothing because the gravitational influence outside of a massive, uniform sphere is determined by the mass within that sphere and not its density (in other words, a the gravitational field surrounding a frozen star and a "traditional" black hole would be equivalent if their masses were equivalent).
We don't have anywhere near the technology to determine the nature of black holes by looking in their general direction. At best, we can say "yeah, it's dark over there..." which is not conclusive in any way.
I'll concede the point re the gravitational field of a frozen star and BH of the same mass, would be equivalent.
But by the same token, there is plenty of other evidence for BH's as I mentioned...besides the EHT images, the dozen or so gravitational wave candidates that "just happen" to align with current equivalent templates.
Your first sentence also is absolutely wrong. We aren't interested in any "infinite red shift"at the center of any so called frozen star, as obviously we only would see the light from any supposed surface, if the frozen star hypothetical was valid.So that is a complete furphy. The dying pulse train effect, along with the EHT images and gravitational wave discoveries, all point to GR type BH's.
So far that is by far our best determination.
Just went back in time to read the first page of this ressurrected thread.
All one can say and conclude is, Ahhh, the arrogance of Farsight...may he rest in peace wherever he is now spouting his nonsensical concept re light, Einstein and GR!
Upon what physical form is the blackhole , based ?
You may want to peruse the following, river.
Notice that the resulting "image" is nearly identical to what the hunt was expected to find.
You might also take note that the "image" was "created" from data procured from Radio Telescopes - NOT Optical Telescopes.
https://www.nature.com/news/how-to-hunt-for-a-black-hole-with-a-telescope-the-size-of-earth-1.21693
"How to hunt for a black hole with a telescope the size of Earth
Astronomers hope to grab the first images of an event horizon — the point of no return.
- Here's how to catch a black hole. First, spend many years enlisting eight of the top radio observatories across four continents to join forces for an unprecedented hunt. Next, coordinate plans so that those observatories will simultaneously turn their attention to the same patches of sky for several days. Then, collect observations at a scale never before attempted in science — generating 2 petabytes of data each night.
This is the audacious plan for next month’s trial of the Event Horizon Telescope (EHT), a team-up of radio telescopes stationed across the globe to create a virtual observatory nearly as big as Earth. And researchers hope that when they sift through the mountain of data, they will capture the first details ever recorded of the black hole at the centre of the Milky Way, as well as pictures of a much larger one in the more distant galaxy M87.
The reason this effort takes so much astronomical firepower is that these black holes are so far from Earth that they should appear about as big as a bagel on the surface of the Moon, requiring a resolution more than 1,000 times better than that of the Hubble Space Telescope. But even if researchers can nab just a few, blurry pixels, that could have a big impact on fundamental physics, astrophysics and cosmology. The EHT aims to close in on each black hole’s event horizon, the surface beyond which gravity is so strong that nothing that crosses it can ever climb back out. By capturing images of what happens outside this zone, scientists will be able to put Einstein’s general theory of relativity to one of its most stringent tests so far. The images could also help to explain how some supermassive black holes produce spectacularly energetic jets and rule over their respective galaxies and beyond.
But first, the weather will have to cooperate. The EHT will need crystal-clear skies at all eight locations simultaneously, from Hawaii to the Andes, and from the Pyrenees to the South Pole. These and other constraints mean that the team gets only one two-week window every year to make an attempt. “Everything has to be just right,” says EHT director Sheperd Doeleman, an astrophysicist at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
“Radio astronomers relish the challenge of doing the almost impossible,” says Roger Blandford, an astrophysicist at Stanford University in California who is not part of the collaboration. And the EHT could present them with their toughest challenge yet.
Monsters of the Universe
Astronomers have known since the 1970s that an odd source of radiation lurks in the heart of the Milky Way. Radio telescopes had picked up an unusually compact object in the dusty central region of the Galaxy, within the constellation Sagittarius. They named the object Sagittarius A∗ — Sgr A∗ for short — and eventually gathered compelling evidence that it was a supermassive black hole, with a mass equal to that of about 4 million Suns. The black hole M87∗ in the centre of the galaxy M87 is even larger, at some 6 billion solar masses. In terms of angular size in the sky, these two have the largest known event horizons of any black holes.
Although scientists have a pretty good idea of how smaller black holes can form, no one knows for sure how these supermassive monsters develop. And for a long time, astronomers doubted that they could achieve the resolution required to image them in any detail.
The challenge comes down to basic optics. The resolution of a telescope depends mostly on its width, or aperture, and on the wavelength of the light at which it is observing. Doubling the width of the telescope allow scientists to resolve details half as wide, and so does halving the wavelength. At wavelengths of 1.3 or 0.87 millimetres — the only radiation bands that do not get absorbed by the atmosphere or scattered by interstellar dust and hot gas — calculations suggested that it would take a radio dish much larger than Earth to image Sgr A∗ or M87∗.
But in the late 1990s, astrophysicist Heino Falcke, then at the Max Planck Institute for Radio Astronomy in Bonn, Germany, and his collaborators pointed out that the optical distortion caused by a black hole’s gravity would act like a lens, magnifying Sgr A∗ by a factor of five or so1. That was good news, because it meant that Sgr A∗ might be within the reach of very-long-baseline interferometry (VLBI) on Earth. This is a technique that integrates multiple observatories into one virtual telescope — with an effective aperture as big as the distance between them.
The reason that there is any hope of imaging Sgr A∗, and the larger M87∗, is that they are surrounded by superheated plasma, possibly the residue of stars that did not get swallowed up outright but got torn apart under the intense gravitational stress. The gas forms a rapidly rotating ‘accretion disk’, with its inner parts slowly spiralling in. Falcke and his colleagues reckoned that a VLBI network spread along the entire globe, and working at around 1 mm wavelength, should be just about sensitive enough to resolve the shadow cast by Sgr A∗ against the halo of gas of the accretion disk.
The team also made the first simulations of what such a network might see. Contrary to most artistic depictions of black holes, the accretion disk does not disappear behind the object the way Saturn’s rings can partly hide behind the planet. Around a black hole, there’s no hiding: gravity warps space-time, and here the effect is so extreme that light rays go around the black hole, showing multiple distorted images of what lies behind it. This should make the accretion disk appear to wrap around the black hole’s shadow like a halo. (The 2014 hit Interstellar was the first movie to accurately depict this kind of warping of light around a black hole.) "
https://www.nature.com/news/how-to-hunt-for-a-black-hole-with-a-telescope-the-size-of-earth-1.21693
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You may want to peruse the following, river.
Notice that the resulting "image" is nearly identical to what the hunt was expected to find.
You might also take note that the "image" was "created" from data procured from Radio Telescopes - NOT Optical Telescopes.
https://www.nature.com/news/how-to-hunt-for-a-black-hole-with-a-telescope-the-size-of-earth-1.21693
"How to hunt for a black hole with a telescope the size of Earth
Astronomers hope to grab the first images of an event horizon — the point of no return.
- Here's how to catch a black hole. First, spend many years enlisting eight of the top radio observatories across four continents to join forces for an unprecedented hunt. Next, coordinate plans so that those observatories will simultaneously turn their attention to the same patches of sky for several days. Then, collect observations at a scale never before attempted in science — generating 2 petabytes of data each night.
This is the audacious plan for next month’s trial of the Event Horizon Telescope (EHT), a team-up of radio telescopes stationed across the globe to create a virtual observatory nearly as big as Earth. And researchers hope that when they sift through the mountain of data, they will capture the first details ever recorded of the black hole at the centre of the Milky Way, as well as pictures of a much larger one in the more distant galaxy M87.
The reason this effort takes so much astronomical firepower is that these black holes are so far from Earth that they should appear about as big as a bagel on the surface of the Moon, requiring a resolution more than 1,000 times better than that of the Hubble Space Telescope. But even if researchers can nab just a few, blurry pixels, that could have a big impact on fundamental physics, astrophysics and cosmology. The EHT aims to close in on each black hole’s event horizon, the surface beyond which gravity is so strong that nothing that crosses it can ever climb back out. By capturing images of what happens outside this zone, scientists will be able to put Einstein’s general theory of relativity to one of its most stringent tests so far. The images could also help to explain how some supermassive black holes produce spectacularly energetic jets and rule over their respective galaxies and beyond.
But first, the weather will have to cooperate. The EHT will need crystal-clear skies at all eight locations simultaneously, from Hawaii to the Andes, and from the Pyrenees to the South Pole. These and other constraints mean that the team gets only one two-week window every year to make an attempt. “Everything has to be just right,” says EHT director Sheperd Doeleman, an astrophysicist at Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
“Radio astronomers relish the challenge of doing the almost impossible,” says Roger Blandford, an astrophysicist at Stanford University in California who is not part of the collaboration. And the EHT could present them with their toughest challenge yet.
Monsters of the Universe
Astronomers have known since the 1970s that an odd source of radiation lurks in the heart of the Milky Way. Radio telescopes had picked up an unusually compact object in the dusty central region of the Galaxy, within the constellation Sagittarius. They named the object Sagittarius A∗ — Sgr A∗ for short — and eventually gathered compelling evidence that it was a supermassive black hole, with a mass equal to that of about 4 million Suns. The black hole M87∗ in the centre of the galaxy M87 is even larger, at some 6 billion solar masses. In terms of angular size in the sky, these two have the largest known event horizons of any black holes.
Although scientists have a pretty good idea of how smaller black holes can form, no one knows for sure how these supermassive monsters develop. And for a long time, astronomers doubted that they could achieve the resolution required to image them in any detail.
The challenge comes down to basic optics. The resolution of a telescope depends mostly on its width, or aperture, and on the wavelength of the light at which it is observing. Doubling the width of the telescope allow scientists to resolve details half as wide, and so does halving the wavelength. At wavelengths of 1.3 or 0.87 millimetres — the only radiation bands that do not get absorbed by the atmosphere or scattered by interstellar dust and hot gas — calculations suggested that it would take a radio dish much larger than Earth to image Sgr A∗ or M87∗.
But in the late 1990s, astrophysicist Heino Falcke, then at the Max Planck Institute for Radio Astronomy in Bonn, Germany, and his collaborators pointed out that the optical distortion caused by a black hole’s gravity would act like a lens, magnifying Sgr A∗ by a factor of five or so1. That was good news, because it meant that Sgr A∗ might be within the reach of very-long-baseline interferometry (VLBI) on Earth. This is a technique that integrates multiple observatories into one virtual telescope — with an effective aperture as big as the distance between them.
The reason that there is any hope of imaging Sgr A∗, and the larger M87∗, is that they are surrounded by superheated plasma, possibly the residue of stars that did not get swallowed up outright but got torn apart under the intense gravitational stress. The gas forms a rapidly rotating ‘accretion disk’, with its inner parts slowly spiralling in. Falcke and his colleagues reckoned that a VLBI network spread along the entire globe, and working at around 1 mm wavelength, should be just about sensitive enough to resolve the shadow cast by Sgr A∗ against the halo of gas of the accretion disk.
The team also made the first simulations of what such a network might see. Contrary to most artistic depictions of black holes, the accretion disk does not disappear behind the object the way Saturn’s rings can partly hide behind the planet. Around a black hole, there’s no hiding: gravity warps space-time, and here the effect is so extreme that light rays go around the black hole, showing multiple distorted images of what lies behind it. This should make the accretion disk appear to wrap around the black hole’s shadow like a halo. (The 2014 hit Interstellar was the first movie to accurately depict this kind of warping of light around a black hole.) "
https://www.nature.com/news/how-to-hunt-for-a-black-hole-with-a-telescope-the-size-of-earth-1.21693
What physical object is the BH based ?
None .
All noted dmoe, but thanks anyway for re-enforcing that fact, not that it will make any difference to the forum troll that is river.This image of a BH was fabricated from a series of radio telescopes from around the world, and so obviously are not actual visible light we generally recognise in photographs. The image though is just as valid, being a composition of the radio images and an accurate visual representation as presented by Janus in the EHT thread.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01155-0
The Event Horizon Telescope’s global network of radio dishes has produced the first-ever direct image of a black hole and its event horizon.
Astronomers have finally glimpsed the blackness of a black hole. By stringing together a global network of radio telescopes, they have for the first time produced a picture of an event horizon — a black hole’s perilous edge — against a backdrop of swirling light.
“We have seen the gates of hell at the end of space and time,” said astrophysicist Heino Falcke of Radboud University in Nijmegen, the Netherlands, at a press conference in Brussels. “What you’re looking at is a ring of fire created by the deformation of space-time. Light goes around, and looks like a circle.”
more at link..........................