The BICEP2 Project at the South Pole:

Hi Declan. :) Like I said, while I will post rarely from now on (depending on what transpires requiring a response from me), I will be reading you all still. I saw this below; and it deserves a rebuttal response regarding your 'version' etc of what went down with that BICEP2 fiasco.



I am taking a moment out of my busy reading/working schedule to set you straight, again, as to what actually 'went down' with that BICEP2 obvious publish-or-perish'-motivated announcement/paper farce.

The way you 'tell it' above, is a patent self-serving and apologist 'version' of events, which has been observed by me and other objective mainstream commentators on both the announcement AND the 'work' by the BICEP2 on the 'treatment' and 'assumptions' and their 'massaging' of the data to suit their obvious 'confirmation biases' for BBang etc 'interpretations/conclusions etc.

The 'riders' which they included a bout 'possible problems' were then dismissed on totally UNforunded basis, given that the maths and treatments and conclusions could have been more 'artifacts' of 'mathematical methods' applied, and data-points ignored as 'insignificant' even though they had NO way of telling the difference between the 'signal' and the possible alternative causes 'noise' and 'contra-indications' etc.

Just because they admit 'possible problems' doesn't excuse them for active confirmation biased assumptions/interpretations 'built into' the exercise from the start. Nor does it excuse their 'publish-or-perish' HASTE in announcing and caliming all sorts of things which the data did NOT actually support UNLESS it was 'interpreted' through the confirmation biased self-delusions of many of the 'team' along the way from raw data (limited/flawed at that!) and the 'final paper/conclusions/claims made which implied they has 'evidence' and/or 'confirmation' of 'primeordial' gravity waves signals and 'strong support for BBang hypothesis 'expansion/inflation etc processes.

If you actually read ALL of the MAINSTREAM comments from ALL the later scrutineers of the BICEP2 announcement/claims etc, you will see that mainstreamers who KNOW about these things have ALSO sen that BICEP2 paper/claims/announcement as an obvious 'rivalry'-motivated announcement to be 'first/before' anyone else. On the way, that exercise was RIDDLED with UNscientific assumptions/interpretations/flaws and systemic/methodological 'short cuts' which they then used to dismiss as insignificant the data which was contradicting and the data which was MISSING as well, in order to claim that their 'massaged' GIGO math-treatments 'signal' was what they claimed...when it was immediately clear to anyone objectively reading that 'work' that it was no such thing based on what they had.

It seems that your predilection for your own brand of 'confirmation bias' has led you to 'read' what went down in your own self-serving way, rather than acknowledging it was NOT ONLY CRANKS that saw the major flaws (and not just 'possible problems, as the 'team' put it which was still dismissed as probably insignificant and would not change their 'finding' etc).

Even after mainstreamers pointed all that out to them, the BICEP2 'team' STILL released their PAPER weeks later as if future Plank data would support their findings!

And more serious still, I had long made comments about the 'mixmaster' of processes across local AND far-deep space reaches of the universe which ATTENUATE and affect all radiation which tends to produce the observed CMB, and that is NOT 'primordial' in origin/process. Even now, the mainstream has yet to account for all the various relevant processes I have identified which would affect the observations made of the CMB. What they are still missing is identified in my upcoming ToE (FYI, I occasionally over the years attempted to start discussions on some of these processes/observations etc, but the usual mod-troll idiocy sabotaged all proper discussion of same so I gave up and will only now explain them via my complete and consistent reality-based ToE publication).

Anyhow, Declan, even mainstreamers saw the farce unfold and why and how it went down as it did from the moment the BICEP2 team decided that rivalry, ego and publish-or-perish imperatives/motives were more important than the strict and rigorous scientific method. So your above biased and 'apologist-for-flawed science' version of that farce is obviously your own 'confection', and not history as it was. So, Declan, now that you have been set straight on what went down with that BICEP2 work/announcement/paper fiasco, please learn from it and drop that unscientific penchant or yours for presenting partial info and confirmation biased 'versions' of what went down there.

If that BICEP2 paper/claims was offered up by some alleged 'crank', you would have crucified them! Yes?

But since it came from 'mainstream' team, you and your fellow 'true believer' zealots/trolls swallowed it hook-line-and-sinker, simply based on 'mainstream authority/source', even before doing due diligence scrutiny of your own (as I strongly suggested) to find the serious and many FLAWS (no other word for it except maybe 'frauds'?) in that sloppy mainstream offering.


Do better and THOROUGH 'due diligence' before you again attempt to 're-write history' to suit your own personal subjective ego needs and apologist bias for mainstream authority/sources/claims/assumptions etc EVEN WHEN THEY ARE SO PATENTLY WRONG. If you are ever to become a truly objective scientific observer/commentator, you must do better! Good luck, Declan. :)

Now, if there is no more 'cheap shot' revisions of history and other people, I shall return to read-only mode. Read ya round, Declan, everyone! :)

Noted and I pass. Nice try but that bait is getting stale. Do better.
 
Give over, paddo! :)

You say: "...the BICEP2 'results' "stand"? On what? It has no legs to stand on. The BICEP2 "results" (as you so cavalierly call them) are only ARTIFACTS of their obviously confirmation biased 'work' and 'claims' etc which I and mainstream itself has already deemed too FLAWED to be a serious scientific exercise/offering as it was done/presented at that stage by the BICEP2 'team' who failed to adhere to the strict scientific method and self-checks and balances because they were too eager to be 'first' etc to 'publish' SOMETHING to 'confirm' whatever hypotheses they started out assuming/interpreting/massaging 'data' with GIGO maths treatments which are no substitute for real scientific scrutiny at all stages. Learn from it and move on, instead of applying double standards which makes it ok for mainstream to present FLAWED 'work' while you decry 'cranks' for allegedly doing the same thing. Do better. :)
 
Noted and I pass. Nice try but that bait is getting stale. Do better.

What 'bait', Declan? You deny that all the usual suspect mainstream trolls were uncritically 'accepting' those BICEP2 claims of confirmation etc of BBang processes/CMb etc; and were eagerly using it to bash the alleged 'crank' who pointed out the flaws and suggested closer scrutiny before 'believing' that BICEP2 BS 'work/paper/claims'? So quick to attack 'cranks', but oh so 'precious' when it turns out the BICEP2 offering/claims even though they were WORSE than 'crank' stuff? In denial much, Declan. Come on, don't see it as 'bait', see it as an exhortation to learn from that fiasco, and do better DUE DILIGENCE in future, irrespective of source/authority, hey? :)
 
What 'bait', Declan? You deny that all the usual suspect mainstream trolls were uncritically 'accepting' those BICEP2 claims of confirmation etc of BBang processes/CMb etc; and were eagerly using it to bash the alleged 'crank' who pointed out the flaws and suggested closer scrutiny before 'believing' that BICEP2 BS 'work/paper/claims'? So quick to attack 'cranks', but oh so 'precious' when it turns out the BICEP2 offering/claims even though they were WORSE than 'crank' stuff? In denial much, Declan. Come on, don't see it as 'bait', see it as an exhortation to learn from that fiasco, and do better DUE DILIGENCE in future, irrespective of source/authority, hey? :)

A brilliant scientist such as yourself should understand: "I pass". The second try was not as nice as the first one, they are getting lamer. So either quit trying or Do better.
 
A brilliant scientist such as yourself should understand: "I pass". The second try was not as nice as the first one, they are getting lamer. So either quit trying or Do better.

So 'evasion' and 'denial' is ok when it suits you. But when a 'crank' pleads the same excuse for not responding properly on the points made, suddenly your double standards come into play and you all crucify a 'crank' when they try to 'beg off' the same as you just did.

See the double standards and bias in your tactics, Declan? And why won't you just admit to being 'taken in' by that BICEP2 BS claims etc, just as all the usual suspect trolls and self-appointed 'crankbusters' and 'defenders of mainstream' were? If not for the alleged 'crank' who called that BICEP2 BS out for what it was, mainstream would still probably be pussyfooting around the elephant in the room, making all sorts of excuses for such sloppy BS 'work/claims' just because it issued from 'mainstream source/authority'.

Come on, be honest with yourself, and admit you were taken in, and are now making rationalization 'versions' of what went down, so that your ego will not be upset. A true scientist admits when he is proven wrong by the facts/history regarding what went down there. Be a true scientist and just face it and learn from it and move on, Declan. And curb your own penchant for confirmation bias and double standards which drip from your recent posts 'excusing' the inexcusable from BICEP2 'mainstream' team. Good luck. :)
 
So 'evasion' and 'denial' is ok when it suits you. But when a 'crank' pleads the same excuse for not responding properly on the points made, suddenly your double standards come into play and you all crucify a 'crank' when they try to 'beg off' the same as you just did.

See the double standards and bias in your tactics, Declan? And why won't you just admit to being 'taken in' by that BICEP2 BS claims etc, just as all the usual suspect trolls and self-appointed 'crankbusters' and 'defenders of mainstream' were? If not for the alleged 'crank' who called that BICEP2 BS out for what it was, mainstream would still probably be pussyfooting around the elephant in the room, making all sorts of excuses for such sloppy BS 'work/claims' just because it issued from 'mainstream source/authority'.

Come on, be honest with yourself, and admit you were taken in, and are now making rationalization 'versions' of what went down, so that your ego will not be upset. A true scientist admits when he is proven wrong by the facts/history regarding what went down there. Be a true scientist and just face it and learn from it and move on, Declan. And curb your own penchant for confirmation bias and double standards which drip from your recent posts 'excusing' the inexcusable from BICEP2 'mainstream' team. Good luck. :)

I PASS! RC that means I'm not interested. Go work someone else. Do better.
 
Ho hum.....
If the cap fits, wear it.
really, your continued fairy tale rants are getting quite boring. Do better.

More lame evasions of the point made, paddo?

The point you conveniently avoid facing squarely is: that you uncritically accepted/believed 'patently and seriously flawed 'work', just because it issues from 'mainstream' source; and you now rationalize all sorts of 'double standard' excuses and apoligisms for same, while the alleged 'crank' who pointed out that it WAS seriously and patently FLAWED is attacked for being an OBJECTIVE OBSERVER and SCIENTIST and calling "BS" on that BICEP2 offering.

You can't 'opinionate' and 'spam-link' your way out of that obvious fact, paddo. So just face it, learn from it, and move on a better, more objective observer. Good luck. :)
 
The point you conveniently avoid facing squarely is: that you uncritically accepted/believed 'patently and seriously flawed 'work', just because it issues from 'mainstream' source; and you now rationalize all sorts of 'double standard' excuses and apoligisms for same, while the alleged 'crank' who pointed out that it WAS seriously and patently FLAWED is attacked for being an OBJECTIVE OBSERVER and SCIENTIST and calling "BS" on that BICEP2 offering.

A couple of points...I do not rationalise anything, nor do I accept flawed work.
The only mistake made with this exciting experiment, was excited scientists [who are only human afterall] announcing something that was not as yet 100% validated.
That situation is now being worked on with collaboration between BICEP2 and Planck.

Secondly, the possible problem in the results was inferred by mainstream anyway, certainly not some alleged out in left field crank.
The facts are that as yet positive results are inconclusive and some certainty or otherwise will be given in October.
Simple as that.
 
I hope this works right...
Hi Declan. :) Just as well I came back to check for typos. Thanks, at least you have tried to be 'fair' (as 'fair' as you can be in your own way).
I was not going to answer this at all, but I couldn't read the BS that you posted and then allow it to be said without defending myself or others.
Declan was perfectly fair. for anyone wanting to see the truth, see for yourself here at: http://phys.org/news/2014-03-rumours-gravitational.html

Go see what really happened... read the commetns for yourself and make up your own mind. I am going to add some things below to your "post here" that I feel needs to be said.
Actually, here's what happened 'over there' IF you read without bias. I made it clear I was withdrawing from posting because I wanted to concentrate on finalizing my ToE work. As a PARTING observation/recommendation to those there who were acting like 'giddy schoolgirls' (lapping up the claims and conclusions etc of those BICEP etc offering, and using the 'papers' and conclusions to beat up on 'cranks'), I ADVISED them to "settle down" and just take a closer look and do DUE DILIGENCE for THEMSELVES before accepting anything from that BICEP2 'treatment/interpretation' as gospel, let alone 'proof' of anything 'scientific'.
Your actual words on the site were
Settle down, guys. Even on a first read through the pdf, at least 4 fatal flaws jump out. At least 1 systemic flaw, at least 2 assumptive flaws and at least 1 procedural flaw. I won't bother to read through it again until I have more time to spare for reading such patently obvious 'wishful thinking' and 'publish-or-perish' and 'Nobel coveting' so-called 'scientific work'. Since there is nothing in this that merits wasting valuable time that I can better apply elsewhere, I will leave it to you all to see if you can spot the 4 (at least!) fatal flaws for yourselves (leave ego and bias aside or you'll fail).
As you know I am too busy to start new conversations. Maybe I'll put a late-edit 'cautionary tale' footnote about this latest 'joke science' effort in my upcoming ToE book. For now, I just wanted to put it on the phys.org record that the 'science work' of this 'team' is more 'iffy' than much of what I have read in/from the 'mainstream' literature/activities over the years! Bye
And for anyone following along, you can see that I took aception to your negative comments without ANY support, link, proof or evidence. I said
really BAD FORM to throw out a claim and NOT POST/LINK PROOF
you slam them and then just "move on" without showing the data/proof? Thats nothing but Trolling, and you should be ashamed of yourself
especially because you dont back up what you say!
add this to your list of reading, RC http://bicepkeck.org/
AND
maybe you missed this part from axemaster?
THERE WAS A QUOTE FROM THE SITE HERE
again, anyone is free to click the above link anf follow the conversation
this is what I would call TROLLING as well as being a [EXPLETIVE DELETED BY USER]
an obviously hostile statement meant to deride another without and substance or proof of conjecture supporting the position taken by the author
I tried to LEAVE it at that PARTING suggestion and log out...but Captn Stumpy got all 'emotional and shrill' about ME rather than just taking my advice to CHECK OUT the BICEP2 'work' etc for HIMSELF (because I saw the OBVIOUS flaws which I have LONG MENTIONED afflict all these 'CMB work/treatments/papers whivh passed 'peer review' in the past and this BICEP2 being just the latest 'publish-or-perish' FLAWED 'offering'.
and I still support my comments
to denigrate the team and comment about claws and then not offer any support or proof of your conjecture is pretty much the work of an [EXPLETIVE DELETED BY USER] and you should be ashamed of yourself.
So what went on from there? Captn and his 'friend' the downrating-bot-operating troll "Uncle Ira" and others started to attack me and lie about me. I defended, and pointed out the half-truths and lies.
SHOW ME ONE LIE THAT I MADE THAT I DIDNT RETRACT OR APOLOGIZE FOR PUBLICLY
JUST ONE!

THERE WAS NONE
NOT ONE
TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE
unlike you, I am not afraid to admit my mistakes, and again, anyone who wants can click the links and read my posts on PO, which are much more likely to be aggressive than here.
For a couple of reasons, INCLUDING a continuing Psyche study that I am collecting data from, which sometimes means that I have to puch buttons on people and get them to react
I've only ever had two comments pulled by PO, both were off topic and I respected their decision, the third was pulled, but when reviewed, put back (against RealityCheck, funny enough) becaue it was empirical, had relevant information, was on topic and pointed out that RC was trolling, which was likely why he reported it.
THAT is my history to date at the PO site with deleted comments, if anyone really cares
It was the trolls who made it about the person rather than the message TO CHECK OUT FOR THEMSELVES and find the obvious flaws for themselves in the BICEP2 paper just as other mainstreamers have found for themselves since...including the obvious fact that that 'paper' was 'publish-or-perish' RUSH and FLAWED 'presentation/interpretation/claim/conclusion' etc, and not a proper scientifically rigorous exercise/treatment etc.
this is absolutely correct, YOU TROLLED and made it all about you because you were wanting attention, then you spent dozens of man-hours ranting about how unfair we were being for pointing out that you offered nothing and were TROLLING the site.

AGAIN! I REITERATE
YOU MADE CLAIMS AND THEN REFUSED TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF YOUR CLAIMS
INCLUDING THE ERRORS ON THE PDF's THAT WERE SO GLARINGLY OBVIOUS
your problem is that you don't like mainstream physics... so what. who cares.
but taking it out on the team WITHOUT EVIDENCE is pretty much TROLLING
you gave ZERO evidence
the others can read for themselves.
So, I already said I had mostly withdrawn and had no time to discuss that BICEP2 BS any further because I had work to do on my (yes, it's real) ToE.
then why did you KEEP comming back to argue how unfair we were being and NEVER ONCE post any justification for your comments?
not one link? not one supporting fact... just trolling comments and whiny BS
Frankly, the lies and half-truths and plain ill-informed PERSONAL attacks on me are obvious tactics by trolls who WON'T ever admit that someone whom they labelled a 'crank' is MORE of an OBJECTIVE and INDEPENDENT observer and scientist than they have been or probably will ever be, despite all their egoistic/elitist/arrogance pretense to know better, even when they are behind in their beliefs and their 'knowledge' of what reality is actually being discovered by me rather than those whom you and others idolize but have proven WANTING when it comes to scientific objectivity and practice like that BICEP2 'team' and their 'obviously tragically flawed 'publish-or-perish' attempt at SNOWING YOU gullible egoistic types because they feed your own 'confirmation biased' way of 'discussing/viewing' evidence which has been under your nose but you have dismissed all this time until I pointed out this latest IN-BUILT-FLAWS-Laden 'paper/claims' from BICEP2 which has been proven LAME in all departments from assumptions/interpretations of data, systemic and methodology and plain 'wishful thinking' math-treatments which only prove the GIGO maxim true yet again.
I am sure everyone here has heard about how ONLY YOU can be objective
and how fair you always are
But will you listen and learn from all this to CHECK CLOSELY FOR YOURSELF the CONTENT/CLAIMS and not just 'trust authority/sources' blindly? No. Apparently you'd rather continue your egoistic/elitists arrogant trollish games and lie about and kill the messenger, while the lessons and new insights )which have been longstanding with me and my ToE implications) pass you by as you troll along 'as usual'.
and of course, no one ever learns but you
ok. whatever.
Bur again, I will give you credit for at least attempting to 'sound' fair; other trolls and saboteurs of proper science discourse on the forums don't even manage to do even that much while they lie and take cheap shots while ignoring the 'gems among the dross' which crosses their computer screens while they are too busy trolling and being 'proper d!cks and tvats' indiscriminately because they kneejerk to the conclusion that all those who disagree with FLAWED orthodoxy/mainstream stuff are 'all cranks'.
Enough. Good luck, and, believe it or not, no hard feelings. I can only trust that at least some of you can change that anti-science attitude/tactic which has damaged so much credibility of the forums and its moderators and self-professed 'scientists' and/or 'experts' (the same 'scientists' and 'experts' who were so readily swallowing without demure all that BICEP2 paper/claims BS!).
Nothing you or anyone on the forums does now will have any significance for me from now on, since I have basically withdrawn from discussing/posting on the net (especially where my ToE details/insights are concerned, for the usual reasons/risks of plagiarism and being mired down in pointless endless exchanges with trolls). Cheers, Declan, and I hope for your own sake you will be more honest with yourself and others in future (I have hopes that it will be possible for you; I have no such hopes for some types here and elsewhere because they are not intersted in truth, but their own trolling egos. Pity.).
Bye for now (I hope I don't have to come back and set more posters straight on what went down? Good! Cheers all! :)
If you are truly leaving, then there may be proof, right here of a God after all...
but given your tactics on PO, and from what I've read here so far... well, it is not likely that you've left anything.
I don't make any claims about not being irritated with realitycheck/undefined
I have never liked a liar, nor have I ever liked someone who was willing to denigrate another without any facts to bolster themselves and offer NOTHING supporting their reasons for said hostility.
nor do I like people who constantly try to whine about mistreatment when it is their own fault that they're treated the way they are.

Sorry if the MODS do not like this explanation, but I felt that I was justified, and that Declan was in the right. I support his comments here as I've never seen him lie yet and he has corrected mistakes in the past.
Thanks

this will be the last time I answer this troll.
some might say not to feed the trolls, but I could not let the situation go unanswered. for those who wish, read the real convo's on the PO link i left.
again, apologies to the mods and to others who have to suffer through RC's crap and my reply.
 
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What does all this mean?
The BICEP2 team were already considering the dust problem.
The Planck data confirms that as a possibility.
These results certainly cast some doubt on the origin of the readings, but by the same token do not entirely dismiss the long sort after evidence for gravitational radiation.
Perhaps a BICEP3 with greater sensitivity?
Certainly worth continuing the search.
 
And of course all findings, including the original from BICEP2, and the following updates and opinions, were all from mainstream science teams, using mainstream science state of the art equipment.
 
What does all this mean?
The BICEP2 team were already considering the dust problem.
The Planck data confirms that as a possibility.
These results certainly cast some doubt on the origin of the readings, but by the same token do not entirely dismiss the long sort after evidence for gravitational radiation.
Perhaps a BICEP3 with greater sensitivity?
Certainly worth continuing the search.
I haven't read the entire paper but the abstract seemed to say this. They couldn't find any region that is clear of dust and that the analysis is still ongoing ( by Planck and BICEP2) to reduce the uncertainty associated with the dust. The conclusion section at the end of the paper gives some details. That paper was submitted in the middle of September and has 17 citations already.
 
http://skeptoid.com/blog/2014/09/24/is-the-evidence-for-inflation-and-gravity-waves-just-dust/

One of the strengths of science and the scientific method is that it is self-correcting. As new evidence is found, old ideas are tested against that evidence. Should they fail, they are either modified or discarded and new ideas take their place. In such ways we improve our knowledge and better understand our Universe.

Back in March, I wrote about new evidence for cosmic inflation and gravity waves from the Backgroun Imaging of Cosmic Extragalactic Polarization (BICEP2) project. BICEP2 analyzed the cosmic microwave background radiation looking for a specific kind of polarization called B-mode polarization. At the time, the data from this project was strong and looked to be supporting the inflationary model of universe expansion, moments after the Big Bang.

Well, wouldn’t you know it, but it appears that this evidence wasn’t quite as good as hoped and, perhaps, such announcements were a bit premature. Several articles came across my news feed in the last few days discussing the BICEP2 data and the claims made by the team based upon that data.

The article “Ripples from dawn of creation vanish in a puff of dust,” in New Scientist by Jacob Aron, does a good job of covering the details. The light polarization which was used by the BICEP2 team could have been caused by inflation and gravity waves, but cosmic dust can also polarize light in the same way. Aron writes:

But other cosmic objects, like the dust that litters the Milky Way, can also polarise light, masking any patterns created by inflation. Initially the BICEP2 team claimed to have eliminated this possibility by pointing their telescope at one of the cleanest regions of the night’s sky, accessible only from the South Pole.

The BICEP2 team did attempt to control for the effects of the dust, however, Jo Dunkley of the University of Oxford notes, “The BICEP analysis gave a degree of confidence that I think people agree was based on an over-optimistic estimate of what the dust could have been, and not based on data.”

Dr. Dunkley is part of a team working with the data from the European Space Agency’s Planck spacecraft, which collected polarization data over the entire sky from 2009 to 2012. Aron continues, “In a paper published this morning the [Planck] team say it is very likely that BICEP2’s signal was just down to dust.”

Happily, the Planck and BICEP2 teams will be sharing data and collaborating on re-analyzing the combined data to see what can be learned. This is science in action, folks. Not always pretty or simple, but it’s still the best tool we have for learning about our Universe.
 
I haven't read the entire paper but the abstract seemed to say this. They couldn't find any region that is clear of dust and that the analysis is still ongoing ( by Planck and BICEP2) to reduce the uncertainty associated with the dust. The conclusion section at the end of the paper gives some details. That paper was submitted in the middle of September and has 17 citations already.


BINGO!
In other words, the results may still be from Inflation and Gravitational radiation, or it may also be from dust.
As an optimist, I still remain hopeful :fingers, toes crossed: :)
 
The verdict is in, as of two days ago. The bicep2 polarization observation was from interstellar dust, not primordial gravity wave remnants. These aren't the droids you were looking for. Move along.
 
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