The bible refutes Yahweh's supposed omniscience, omnipotence, and omni-benevolence.

S

Someone7

Registered Senior Member
KJV Genesis 3:9 - And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

An omniscient god wouldn't need to ask this question.

KJV Judges 1:19 - And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

An omnipotent god would not be stopped by chariots of iron.

In the first chapters of Job, Yahweh allows Satan to ruin Job financially, and lets him kill his children and shepherds just to win a petty bet.

This is not the act of an all loving deity, more like a puppet master who doesn't care about his creations.

Whatever ideas people get about Yahweh are of their own making. The bible either doesn't support them or contradicts itself somewhere else if it does.
 
Not wise to trash something you have no comprehension of. You just spent 5 min. swimming around in a clogged up toilet on the 91st flr of Sears Tower in Chicago IL on the most beautiful day of the year. You now think you know it all, you claim you saw nothing impressive, and the trip stunk, and you never even were aware that there was a beautiful sight to see.
 
KJV Genesis 3:9 - And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
An omniscient god wouldn't need to ask this question.
KJV Judges 1:19 - And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
An omnipotent god would not be stopped by chariots of iron.
In the first chapters of Job, Yahweh allows Satan to ruin Job financially, and lets him kill his children and shepherds just to win a petty bet.
This is not the act of an all loving deity, more like a puppet master who doesn't care about his creations.
Whatever ideas people get about Yahweh are of their own making. The bible either doesn't support them or contradicts itself somewhere else if it does.
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Hi S7,

Nice to see that your still searching the Scriptures, even if in a questioning fashion.

I and I would guess a few others around here can’t help but notice the amount of passion you have, maybe misplaced but a very strong passion no the less. You remind me a bit of Boris but with a less technical approach to what it is that you are saying. Could I be so bold to ask why? Why such a large amount of animosity? Why such a passion to discredit the word of God and God Himself? Is there anything in this life that offers you hope or peace? I think it would not be wise of me to keep asking such things as I do not want you to feel like I am attacking you. I am simply saddened for you, not so much that you don’t believe in my God the way I do, no, that is your choice. But more so for the anger, the hurt, the pain I see in your words every time I read them. Its almost like I hear you screaming out against some injustice that has befallen you, as though you hold God in judgement for something that was stolen from you. Something that you may entrusted to Him at one time and now it has been swept away never to be touched again, and its almost like I hear a heart that screams in pain at the loss. Why God? Why? I trusted you and you let me down.

I can only let my imagination run with this to try to understand what would drive a person to such a state, a state beyond even rational logic, a state in which they are consumed by their anger to the point of tearing at and lashing out at the faith of others. If others choose to believe or disbelieve what is that to you? What is that to me even? I choose to believe, not because I don’t see hurt, not because the world is perfect, not because I think that even if everyone believed that it would be, not because there are no question, not because of ignorance. I choose to believe because of love, not a mushy, wishy, washy emotionalism, but a love that demands my best. Because of hope, not a hope in which I may be blessed but the hope of being able to bless. I choose to believe because I have been inspired, because I have been hurt, because I see pain, because I know hard questions, because I am a finite man in a sea of the infinite, things beyond my understanding and comprehension.


Enough of this and on to your questions:

KJV Genesis 3:9 - And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

S7, do you truly think God asked this question because He did not know where Adam was? I should hope that you could see beyond the simple and into the very essence of what God was saying.

If I ask you Someone7 where are you? If I phrased it as a question to your heart, a question that went beyond geographical location and struck at the very heart of you and where you stood before God. If I did this how would you answer?

So where are you? Who are you? What are you? What, when, where, how, why?

God was asking Adam. Where are YOU?

Not. At what geographical location are you?

Do you know why God asked Adam this? Because God knew that the man He had made in His image was no longer in communion with Him. Sin had come into this part of God’s creation and sought to drive a division between the Holiness of God and the fallen state of man. God asked a question that echo’s through the ages to the heart of every person that has or does or will exist.

When God fashioned garments of leaves for Adam and Eve do you think He was simply providing clothes for them? No, He was giving them a covering, He was providing them with mercy and showing that even in a fallen state that He the Lord of all glory had compassion on His creation.


KJV Judges 1:19 - And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Essentially if you read on and understand the geography etc you will have an answer to this question.

The people of the valley were better equipped for battle with better weapons and stronger fortresses. Judah could not take them in a head on confrontation as that would be suicidal, instead they sent spies into the surrounding area and cities. These men found ways to penetrate the defences of the valley people and the victory was won. It is not a statement that God Himself was limited by their iron chariots but that the people whom He commanded to bring about were limited. Essentially it is saying that they used their brains as well as their brawn.

Allcare

Tony H2o
 
“I and I would guess a few others around here can’t help but notice the amount of passion you have, maybe misplaced but a very strong passion no the less. You remind me a bit of Boris but with a less technical approach to what it is that you are saying. Could I be so bold to ask why? Why such a large amount of animosity? Why such a passion to discredit the word of God and God Himself? Is there anything in this life that offers you hope or peace? I think it would not be wise of me to keep asking such things as I do not want you to feel like I am attacking you. I am simply saddened for you, not so much that you don’t believe in my God the way I do, no, that is your choice. But more so for the anger, the hurt, the pain I see in your words every time I read them. Its almost like I hear you screaming out against some injustice that has befallen you, as though you hold God in judgement for something that was stolen from you. Something that you may entrusted to Him at one time and now it has been swept away never to be touched again, and its almost like I hear a heart that screams in pain at the loss. Why God? Why? I trusted you and you let me down.”

What you see in my words is unfounded. I’ve never asked or trusted Yahweh for anything, so I’ve never been let down by him. I was never a religious person, and the earliest memories I have of thinking about God is wondering if such a thing could exist.

“I can only let my imagination run with this to try to understand what would drive a person to such a state, a state beyond even rational logic, a state in which they are consumed by their anger to the point of tearing at and lashing out at the faith of others. If others choose to believe or disbelieve what is that to you? What is that to me even?.”

Um, I do believe I’m just trying to debate religion, which is what this forum is for.

“S7, do you truly think God asked this question because He did not know where Adam was? I should hope that you could see beyond the simple and into the very essence of what God was saying.”

Yes I think Yahweh asked that question because he didn’t know where he was. What reason do I have not to believe he didn’t know that? He asked him how did he know he was naked and asked him if he ate the fruit or not (Genesis 3:11), seems like Yahweh was a bit confused to me, not to mention angry and ready to punish his creations.

“Do you know why God asked Adam this? Because God knew that the man He had made in His image was no longer in communion with Him. Sin had come into this part of God’s creation and sought to drive a division between the Holiness of God and the fallen state of man. God asked a question that echo’s through the ages to the heart of every person that has or does or will exist.”

And did Yahweh tell you this? How do you know he didn’t know where he was?

Yes, my point about Judges 1:19 was lame, it could very well just mean Yahweh was with him in spirit, and that Judah couldn’t drive them out because they had better weapons. In retrospect, I shouldn’t have used that as an argument for Yahweh not being omnipotent. Point conceded.
 
Jesus calls all believers to be like doves. He did not mean we were to try to lay eggs. You must understand the Bibles teachings. We can't just read it and literally take it all in adding our modern assumptions to the text. Things must be understood in their context.

"KJV Genesis 3:9 - And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
An omniscient god wouldn't need to ask this question."

Tony gave an answer to this and here is a slightly different spin on it. It was a rhetorical question. Didn't God ask Cain a similar question?


"KJV Judges 1:19 - And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

An omnipotent god would not be stopped by chariots of iron."

The New international version has different wording. It says the people were unable to drive them out. The study notes explain why.

1.Caanites poseesed superior weapons.
2. Israel disobeyed God by making treaties with them (2:1-3)
3. Israel violated the covenant made with the forefathers (2:20-21)
4. God was testing Israels faithfulnesss to obey his commands (2:22-23; 3:4)

So basically, God didn't drive out the chariots of iron.

"In the first chapters of Job, Yahweh allows Satan to ruin Job financially, and lets him kill his children and shepherds just to win a petty bet.

This is not the act of an all loving deity, more like a puppet master who doesn't care about his creations."

Read the end of the book and see what answer God gave Job. Very very interesting. Then you can also read this if you have time (its my page): http://www.angelfire.com/co/JesusFreak/pain.html

Peace,
Vinnie
 
Vinnie,

Read the end of the book and see what answer God gave Job. Very very interesting.
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So do you think the 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1000 yoke of oxen, 1000 she asses, 7 sons and 3 daughters replaced in Job's heart a single family member that Job had lost? Would that do it for you?

By the way, that bet that God made with Satan kind of reminds me of the bet made between the Dukes in the movie, "Trading Places". In fact, I'll bet they borrowed the idea from the book of Job - what do you think?

Blessings,

Emerald



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An ye harm none, do what ye will.
 
S7,
I don't know about you, but I have seen many parents ask "Where are you?" when they know full well where their child is. They just want to see the child come to them. God was giving Adam the chance to confess on his on. When God asked Cain "What have you done?" it's not that he didn't know, but was giving Cain the chance to confess and ask forgiveness. Instead, Cain came back with a smart aleck remark so suffered a large price.
As for Job, he made some statements similar to yours after God has allowed all these plagues to come on him. But in the end, it was all for the best. Job was stronger in his faith and humbler in his attitude. And every Christian knows that those children weren't lost. Job knew where they were. Of course he would be sad to see them die, as I would about my family, but I know that I'll see my family again one day after I die. No one is "lost." I hope all these replies have pointed you in the direction you seek.
Michael
 
So, it is a matter of perception and insight. A very interesting thread. Those do sound like valid explanations.

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It's all very large.



[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited September 24, 2000).]
 
I don't know about you, but I have seen many parents ask "Where are you?" when they know full well where their child is.
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This is similar to the example I was thinking of. A mother bakes a bath of cookies and puts them in the cookie jar, and tells the child "Don't eat those cookies, Suzzie." She then leaves the room, but doesn't go too far. Then she hears a
--clink!--
in the kitchen, and knows just what is going on. But instead of saying "Get out of those cookies, Suzzie" she will say:
"Suzzie, what are you doing?"

Not a perfect illustraion, I know, but it gets across the point.
 
I check quality "in the field". When someone does a good job, I let em know. When they do a bad job I tell them to go fix it! Later I look for patterns and word on identifying recurring problems or attitudes. When I talk to a tech and ask questions I already know what the answer is. I just want to make sure THEY know what the answer is. God was spelling out the relationship in question form. It is more easily accepted when the words come out of our own mouths when God talks to us...that is relationship building. I concur with all answers listed above.

Every book in the Bible tells us something about GOD and His relationship with people. The New Testament DOES NOT conflict with the Old Testament. GOD is BIG!

In cases like Job, some would say, "I wouldn't want a god who destroys families." A more appropriate statement might be, "What is there to know about a GOD who can destroy a family at the breath of HIS word?"
 
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So do you think the 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1000 yoke of oxen, 1000 she asses, 7 sons and 3 daughters replaced in Job's heart a single family member that Job had lost? Would that do it for you?
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No, but an eternity in heaven would. To put things in perspective, an 80 year life filled with hardships, famine, suffering, loss, death, pain et cetera, is nothing compared to an eternity in heaven. There is no comparison. The two can't even be lined up next to one another ;)

"By the way, that bet that God made with Satan kind of reminds me of the bet made between the Dukes in the movie, "Trading Places". In fact, I'll bet they borrowed the idea from the book of Job - what do you think?"

Its possible but I still suggest reading the answer God gave Job.

Peace,
Vinnie
 
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No, but an eternity in heaven would. To put things in perspective, an 80 year life filled with hardships, famine, suffering, loss, death, pain et cetera, is nothing compared to an eternity in heaven.
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I agree an eternity with a genocidal baby killing insecure and terribly vain being who would damn your arse for being human (ie the way he made you) would surely be far worse then 80 years on this planet.
 
God doesn't send people to Hell for being human, he sends them there for rebelling against Him (their Creator)!
 
Then why are you considered a sinner from day 1????? how does being born costitute rebelion??? How does the faliar of your parents to have you christened consitute rebelion on your part (still refering to an infant)????
 
__________________
So do you think the 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1000 yoke of oxen, 1000 she asses, 7 sons and 3 daughters replaced in Job's heart a single family member that Job had lost? Would that do it for you?
______________

No, but an eternity in heaven would. To put things in perspective, an 80 year life filled with hardships, famine, suffering, loss, death, pain et cetera, is nothing compared to an eternity in heaven.
Click to expand...

I love this answer; it's the standard of any empowered, political majority. "What, the system doesn't work? Have faith, just hold on, you'll see ...."

The idea, of course, being that by the time anyone concerned with the original issue figures out the resolution is a load of bull-droppings, it's too late to do anything about it.

I have a sarcastic saying about fundamentalist ideas of heaven and hell: If I'm right, it doesn't matter; if you're right, it doesn't matter, anyway.

What that means is simple:

* If I, as an atheist (as I would have described myself the first time I wrote it down), am right about what happens after death, then we're all dead, so it doesn't matter who was right or who was wrong.

* However, if the fundamentalist is right about what happens after death ... well, any picture I can get of the Universe from a Christian perspective makes salvation either a farce or a lie.

If I'm wrong when I say that "there is no heaven", or at least that the heaven of the Christians ain't it, it hardly means anything at all. Because that holds massive implications for those who seek God but never connect the name (the important part) with the message (not so important). Why is the name more important? I think that question is well-addressed in a couple of other threads on the topic of Satan, Hell, and redemption. After all: if those who achieve the form, but have never heard of Yahweh ...?

In fact, how can any Christian guarantee that he or she has found God? Lori and I used to clobber ourselves silly over the idea of whose interpretation of God is "correct". The diversity of interpretations she and I identified (even if we achieved little else) indicates that no two people have exactly the same image of God, and nobody can say for sure that he or she is right. Thus, I'd say there's a good chance of no Christians going to heaven, since there's still issues to be had about the seekers who do not find.

"Putting things in perspective" with the promise of eternity in heaven was, coincidentally, a powerful argument used to assuage African slaves in the United States; we could give them religion, but it wasn't "nice" to teach slaves to read. It made it quite easy to propagate the idea that their cruelly-inspired labor would be rewarded in heaven. It's the religious version of "Let them eat cake."

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

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Whether God exists or does not exist, He has come to rank among the most sublime and useless truths.--Denis Diderot
 
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