The belief in God is Unreasonable

[wesmorris]

Given the fact there there is no irrefutable evidence of God (for instance if God is a conscious being, why not say hi?) or against god, one must make an assumption in order to say "God exists" that assumption is something like "look at all this indirect proof, God must exist" even though the only way to prove something so controversial would be direct evidence.

In order to make such a logical jump, one must abandon reason since it is unreasonable to make the jump to begin with. Reason dictates that one must be agnostic. (If you think about the pure definition, it's true that every human is technically agnostic (since if you have ever EVER even for a minute second doubted and moreso you were BORN agnostic))

Therefore, in order to believe in God one must be unreasonable.

 

[daphneeee]

To believe in God in not unreasonable. Its what a normal person chooses to do, because naturally even if we believe or not in God's existence we often call him when we say "oh my God" or pray or wish for sth to happen or not happen to us.

 

[(Q)]

daphneee

Its what a normal person chooses to do, because naturally even if we believe or not in God's existence we often call him when we say "oh my God" or pray or wish for sth to happen or not happen to us.

Firstly, one would never call for God or pray for things to happen if one had not been told God allegedly existed.

Secondly, although I've heard God allegedly exists, I've never called Him nor have ever prayed for anything to happen.

Actually, I've had better luck calling Santa. He never lets me down.

Does that make me abnormal ?

 

[inspector]

"Therefore, in order to believe in God one must be unreasonable."
--------------------


Therefore, for someone who thinks himself so educated in the realm of logic, and yet, posts something so void of logic itself, one must consider the source of illogic as unreasonable.

><>

 

[daphneeee]

Q, u may not call "God", but you blame your actions upon him. To believe in sth that is beyond us, as human beings, whether it is God or fairies, or Santa. Thats what i am talking about. Not specificly about God.

 

[VAKEMP]

I disagree, wesmorris.

To believe in God is reasonable. There are many writings about God, as well as prophets who claim to speak God's word. There are testimonies in the Bible. There are so many different religions, who ultimately all believe in the same God (just have different interpretations of His word). When you grow up in a religious household, your parents tell you how good God is. This would make almost everyone believe in God.

Besides, there aren't too many negatives to being religious. That is, unless you have a religious person get put into a position of power. Then, all who do not share his/her beliefs should tremble, because he/she will make decisions that will affect your life, based solely on his/her beliefs.

For example, when you start burning people alive, or letting people die because you're pro-life (how ironic), there's a problem.

Just goes to show why it's impossible for people of different religious backgrounds to live in peace with one another.

 

[VAKEMP]

off the topic

To believe in sth that is beyond us

What is "sth"?

Since we're on the subject, what does "pfft" mean, too?

 

[daphneeee]

Firstly, one would never call for God or pray for things to happen if one had not been told God allegedly existed.

I totally disagree with this statement. When something bad happens to us we often say "y did this happen to me!" thinking that someone who is beyond us, God for example made it happen to US. Or, when we are sad, in our despair we often make wishes. We made what today exists as God. It was in our minds, as we wanted to believe in something specific which was strong enough to make everything in our world.

 

[daphneeee]

VAKEMP: sth is something

 

[Phaedrus]

Hrm...does God exist.......

Here are questions to lead to problems
(1) Does God exist
(2) Does God exist in a physical manner
(3) What are God`s characteristics
(4) Has God ever interacted with humans
(5) Is god all loving
(6) Is god all-powerful
(7) Do people have free will
(8) Does God care about humans
(9) Has God given an afterlife for humans
(10) Do we have a soul/spirit, a type of nonphysical entity which survives death


Now, the more of these statements you agree with, the harder it is to defend your conception of God. Once you start to agree with statements after (3), then you commit yourself to serious logical problems. While I will not debate with people whether a God (by that I mean greater being) does or does not exist, I will argue over certain conceptions of a greater being. I do not think that logically you can prove/disprove a greater being. However you can logically disprove certain conceptions, especially popular conceptions of god.

A problem with this however is that many people are willing to take the step past logic and reason. While I admit there are a number of things in my life that require a certain amount of faith, or at least a lack of reason, I would never do that with something very important in my life. To be irrational about a philosophy that your life revolves around is idiotic.

So it seems that we should not debate whether god does or does not exist, we should only debate about certain conceptions. When you get into specifics is when you can use logic. I you could not use logic to wonder whether I own the book Plato`s Apology. However you could use logic when I start describing it, and when I start becoming specific with it. Maybe I would quote from it. Then you could use logic to look into whether that book really exists in my home or not.

Just my thoughts for the day.

- Phaedrus

 

[VAKEMP]

daphneeee...

thx

 

[(Q)]

daphneee

Q, u may not call "God", but you blame your actions upon him.

I don't blame God for anything. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest God exists, therefore how can I blame something that doesn't exist ?

To believe in sth that is beyond us, as human beings, whether it is God or fairies, or Santa. Thats what i am talking about. Not specificly about God.

The part about Santa was a joke (a bad one at that.) There is nothing beyond our universe then that which we can observe. I don't observe gods, fairies or Santa.

I totally disagree with this statement. When something bad happens to us we often say "y did this happen to me!" thinking that someone who is beyond us, God for example made it happen to US.

Perhaps, but that is an irrational conclusion. Most rational people understand that things happen because of natural events occurring and not events occurring due to the supernatural. They simply investigate the cause and effect of the situation.

We made what today exists as God. It was in our minds, as we wanted to believe in something specific which was strong enough to make everything in our world.

And that is the problem we face today - the fact that the concept of God is a want to believe as opposed to a need to believe. If someone thinks they "need" to believe in God, then they must not believe in themselves or the world around them. They cannot see nature for what it is; natural.

 

[Phaedrus]

To believe in God in not unreasonable. Its what a normal person chooses to do, because naturally even if we believe or not in God's existence we often call him when we say "oh my God" or pray or wish for sth to happen or not happen to us.

Well, as I said before, belief in God is not unreasonable. However certain types of beliefs with God are unreasonable. It is what a "normal person....." whoa....normal person. Beliefs in God very far too much to make that type of statement. We call on him? When I say, "oh my god," I am not calling him. Usually it is used like I would use, "what the fuck" (forgive the language if anyone is offended). For example, let us say that I see a honda civic, and it has a idiot who is being dragged being it because he is holding on to a rope attached to the car. I would not be referring to god, I would be making a statement to show my bewilderment. I do not pray, or wish to god. So...I am not normal or I just don`t pick up on your reason.

Q, u may not call "God", but you blame your actions upon him. To believe in sth that is beyond us, as human beings, whether it is God or fairies, or Santa. Thats what i am talking about. Not specificly about God.

I do not blame my actions on whatever God is. I blame my actions on myself, at least most of the time. I do not blame my problems (at least most of them) on other people, beings, or situations. I know that most of my problems are cause by me.

to VAKEMP:

who ultimately all believe in the same God

That is your interpretation, I do not think that all of the different conceptions of god can be put together. You cannot put together some of the different buddhist conceptions of god with the christian conception.

To believe in God is reasonable. There are many writings about God, as well as prophets who claim to speak God's word. There are testimonies in the Bible.

Testimonies to a supernatural power do not make something true. There are many testimonies about aliens and ufos, I still however do not think that there is enough evidence to support such claims.

So...I am off to dinner, I will continue this later.

 

[wesmorris]

I shouldn't respond but it's just too tempting.

Originally posted by inspector
Therefore, for someone who thinks himself so educated in the realm of logic[/B]

did I make that claim besides that joke in the other forum? and if that's what you mean, I'm just a dork. pardon.

Originally posted by inspector
and yet, posts something so void of logic itself, one must consider the source of illogic as unreasonable.[/B]

okay, that's simply untrue. the logic may not make sense to you but what I said is certainly not completely devoid of logic no matter what claims you make. is the logic correct? i think so and if you read my retorts to others you'll see that though potentially flawed, the earnest attempt at logic is there and MUCH more sensible than most of the posts I've seen on this site. your distaste for my flavor of reasoning does not help to prove me wrong unless you attempt to dismantle my argument rather than dismiss it. in other words, if you're going to bother with a response, why not make it reasonable? hehe.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by Phaedrus
I do not think that logically you can prove/disprove a greater being.

I believe that to be a virtually equivalent statement to my hypothesis.

Originally posted by Phaedrus
However you can logically disprove certain conceptions, especially popular conceptions of god.
A problem with this however is that many people are willing to take the step past logic and reason. While I admit there are a number of things in my life that require a certain amount of faith, or at least a lack of reason, I would never do that with something very important in my life. To be irrational about a philosophy that your life revolves around is idiotic.[/B]

Why then can the belief in god be reasonable?

Originally posted by Phaedrus
So it seems that we should not debate whether god does or does not exist, we should only debate about certain conceptions. [/B]

I think you're onto something, but human nature precludes (is that a word? hehe, uh.. makes it such that though what you say SHOULD be, it can never be due to human nature) you.

Originally posted by Phaedrus
When you get into specifics is when you can use logic. I you could not use logic to wonder whether I own the book Plato`s Apology. However you could use logic when I start describing it, and when I start becoming specific with it. Maybe I would quote from it. Then you could use logic to look into whether that book really exists in my home or not.[/B]

That's good stuff. You show significant wisdom in my opinion.

Originally posted by Phaedrus
Just my thoughts for the day.

- Phaedrus [/B]

 

[wesmorris]

I believe Phaedrus already responded quite nicely to this, I have to throw in my two cents.

Originally posted by VAKEMP
I disagree, wesmorris.

Originally posted by VAKEMP
To believe in God is reasonable. There are many writings about God, as well as prophets who claim to speak God's word.[/B]

Prove to me that the prophets weren't insane. Okay, better yet, heresay is generally considered irrelavent, it is for the most part in a court anyway. Further, I could make up a whole bunch of shit to get you to love me or that which it is that I'm saying. By your reasoning if I claim myself to be a prophet I am correct? Okay, if me and my friends all do it, whatever. Then I'm correct and the other prophets are correct. No? So it must be the one with the story that happens to appeal to you more, even if you had NO BASIS whatsoever by which to make the required judgement, for instance you were mentally impared. ack... it doesn't make sense. Try again.

Originally posted by VAKEMP
There are testimonies in the Bible. [/B]

Which proves? Okay.. uh.. so what? No. Okay.. The bible.. argh.. okay I won't go into it, but just because it is in that book does not mean it was true.
QUOTE]Originally posted by VAKEMP
There are so many different religions, who ultimately all believe in the same God (just have different interpretations of His word).[/B][/QUOTE]
That's simply not true. You just made that up. If you make stuff up you should make it more plausible.

Originally posted by VAKEMP
When you grow up in a religious household, your parents tell you how good God is.[/B]

So your parents have more of a clue than you do? That's not true either. As previously stated, the answer to the question is unknowable until irrefutable truth is presented.
This would make almost everyone believe in God.
That's the one good point I think you made. Quite true I spoze. I don't like it, but you are definately correct there.

Originally posted by VAKEMP
Besides, there aren't too many negatives to being religious.
That is subjective and eronious.[/B]

Originally posted by VAKEMP
For example, when you start burning people alive, or letting people die because you're pro-life (how ironic), there's a problem.[/B]

That's all the way true brother.
Just goes to show why it's impossible for people of different religious backgrounds to live in peace with one another. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll let that one slide for lack of energy to go all the way into it.

 

[VAKEMP]

Testimonies to a supernatural power do not make something true.

I know. My point is it isn't unreasonable to believe in a god. This thread is not about proving that a god exists, but whether or not it is reasonable to believe that a god exists.

Read the topic, Sherlock.

That is your interpretation, I do not think that all of the different conceptions of god can be put together.

My bad. I should've said 'most'. You're right.

Is it reasonable to believe in a god? Well, seeing that so many people have and do, logic would lead me to believe that it isn't so unreasonable to expect others to be influenced by 'tradition', and also believe in a god.

 

[VAKEMP]

That's simply not true. You just made that up. If you make stuff up you should make it more plausible.

I was speaking of religions based on the Bible. Are you telling me that Christians have the same moral standards as Roman Catholics?

Prove to me that the prophets weren't insane.

Don't even start with the 'prove to me' BS.

By your reasoning if I claim myself to be a prophet I am correct?

No. If you make up a good bullshit story about how you were a whore on crack before God revealed Himself to you, and how He chose you to speak His word, it is quite possible that some people will believe you.

People con other people all of the time. Maybe they get away with it because they tell people what they want to hear. If that is the case, and these people want to believe God chose you as a prophet, would it be unreasonable if they believed you?

...that's what this thread is about, right? How reasonable religion is?

ack... it doesn't make sense. Try again.

Just slow down, and try to think about what I'm saying, and how it relates to the topic of this post...

 

[Phaedrus]

There was a bit of misunderstanding in my posts.

Vakemp, "sherlock" why don`t you read mine first. I responsed I do not think you can logically prove or disprove a higher power. I do think you can logically disprove claims to a certain type of conception of a higher power. For example, if a friend said, I think a higher power exists. I would say, "ok, what do you think this higher power is." There is a problem if he says, "I have no idea what it is, I just think that there is one." There is not too much you can do with this statement logically to refute it. You can show why it is not very strong, but I do not think that you can refute it.

Now, on to something better. When you start to get into characteristics of a higher power, that is when it starts. If you say to me, "I believe in a god that is all-loving." I will start arguing points. I will ask you for more characteristics, and I will try to find specific premises. From there I will start to object to these. Basically, the more claims you make about a higher power the harder it gets to back it up. This is a general statement, but it generally holds. No pun there.

Wesmorris, you misunderstood what I was saying. I was not saying that a belief in a higher being was unreasonable, I was saying that giving certain characteristics to a higher being could be unreasonable. For example, giving the characteristics of a black god with an afro, that is all loving and hates white people. That would be an idiot belief. My thoughts are that it is not the idea of a greater being that is refutable, but the characteristics of this higher being.

Most of the arguments against a divinity argue its characteristics, not the existence of a god itself. I will give an example and I want people to argue against this conception of a "god" or as I will call it "gawd."

My Gawd:
(1) It does not care about human-kind
(2) It did not create us
(3) While it is not powerful, it is semi-powerful (like mini-me, 1/8th all-powerful)

Now, it is very hard to argue against this type of conception of god. I would like people to try. I want logical arguments, not statements from belief. This should show you that most arguments are directed at certain conceptions and beliefs about god, not about the existence of a higher being in itself.

- Phaedrus

 

[Phaedrus]

Vakemp, Catholicism is a sect within Christianity. Try reading up on history.

Good detective work Sherlock.