Talk Aztecs, Toltecs, Maya's etc...

wet1

Wanderer
Registered Senior Member
When Cortes arrived in Mesoamerica in 1519, his first contact was with the Aztecs who were, in fact, doing human sacrifices. The priests with Cortes were properly horrified about human sacrifices, even though the Vatican was still in-process of Inquisitions that tortured and murdered millions in Europe, that included anyone who did not accept Jesus as their savior but particularly Jews. Isabela and Ferdinand of Spain had launched the first Inquisition about six months after Columbus sailed for America in 1492. At any rate, the Catholics took exception to the Aztecs' practice of human sacrifices while condoning their own Inquisitions in the name of Jesus.

The priests who wrote the early history of Mexico identified Mexico with the Aztecs they first contacted. The Aztecs had only been in the Mexico Valley several hundred years before Cortes arrived, and the Aztecs were themselves new to the Mexico Valley.

The Toltec, a word that means master craftsman, had been in the Mexico Valley since around 600 AD when the Aztecs conquered the peaceful Toltec to move into the Mexico Valley around 1300 AD. The Toltec had been in the area about 700 years before the Aztec.

The Aztecs declared themselves heirs of the Toltec around 1300 AD when they moved into the Mexico Valley and assimilated the Toltec deity, Quetzalcoatl, as a secondary figure under the Aztec God of War.

In contrast to the human sacrifices the Aztec god demanded, Quetzalcoatl was a peaceful god who would not tolerate talk of human sacrifices. Quetzalcoatl would accept only flower and butterflies on altars, according to accounts given to the priests. Long-standing Aztec gods were very different and made different demands than Quetzalcoatl. After the Aztecs installed Quetzalcoatl in their pantheon -- their call since they were the conquerors of the Mexico Valley -- some Aztecs began to accept the teachings of Quetzalcoatl, and they accepted Quetzalcoatl as a secondary deity under the Aztecs God of War.

Confusion between the Aztec's human sacrifices and the Toltec's Quetzalcoatl who would not accept human sacrifices was generated by the priests who reported to the Vatican. The Aztecs occupied a pyramid center at what is now Mexico City. The Toltec had settled around the pyramids at Teotihuacan after the original builders abandoned them between 600-700 AD. The confusion still exists.

Quetzalcoatl was described as a tall bearded man with white skin who wore a robe and would appear unexpectedly to talk to people while they worked. The Toltec said that Quetzalcoatl brought them letters and mathematics when they lived in ignorance. The Cherokee also had a tradition of a pale skinned teacher who brought new teachings to them long before the European arrived.

Like the Toltecs (master craftsmen), the Cherokee were an accomplished people whose teachings promoted peaceful integration. The result of the encouragement of their teachers is that both the Toltec and Cherokee easily assimilated with conquering races -- Aztecs and Europeans.

Frank Waters indicates that Toltec craftsmen carved the Sun Stone, which is commonly, but erroneously, called the Aztec calendar. The Sun Stone is a megalith stone weighing 13 tons carved from basalt. Carving the Sun Stone was an accomplishment in itself, not to mention transporting it.

Distinctions between the Aztecs and Toltecs is especially important in terms of identifying the source of the ancient calendar. The numbers of Native America's oldest calendar first appeared in Teotihuacan.

The pyramids at Teotihuacan were constructed by unidentified builders around 300 BC, and, according to Peter Thompkins, the remains of an older smaller pyramid have been discovered under the Pyramid of the Sun at Teotihuacan. The ruins of an older pyramid under the Pyramid of the Sun could date Teotihuacan's use to about 2000 BC. This date cannot be confirmed, because I don't have information dealing with the ruins of the smaller pyramid beneath the existing Pyramid of the Sun.

There is carbon dating and excavation of another site in the Mexico City that dates occupation of builders in the Mexico Valley to 2160 BC. The hard evidence for construction in the Mexico Valley in time frame indicated by carbon dating of 2160 BC is summarily ignored by the Mexican government, who originally commissioned the carbon dating, but now makes big $$$ on the tourist industry and does not want to upset the historical identity established in Euro thinking.

Again, the Toltecs migrated into the Mexico Valley as the original builders of Teotihuacan were departing in the period 600-700 AD. A pyramid culture existed in the Mexico Valley, constructed by unidentified builders, when the Toltec arrived.

THE SHOCKER FOR "AMERICANS"

Now for the shocker for the mythos of North American Natives. Scholars like to define Native Americans with political boundaries between Mexico and the U.S. Mexican Indians are identified separately from Native Americans north of the national boundaries. There was considerable commingling between native tribes in what is now the U.S. and Mexico before the political boundaries were defined.

The Pawnee, settled near the Missippi when Lewis and Clark set out to map the northwest territory, did their last human sacrifice in 1838. And they stopped doing human sacrifices at the request of none other than the explorer who set the pace into the northwest, William Clark.

After sacrificing an Oglala Sioux girl in 1838, the Sioux attacked the Pawnee. The Pawnee asked permission to move to Oklahoma for their own safety, and they subsequently became an extinct tribe.

The exact form of the human sacrifice ritual is compared to an Aztec codex depicting sacrifices. The Pawnee clearly had contact with the Aztecs who memorialized human sacrifice rituals in a codex, Codex Porfirio Diaz, now in the National Museum, Mexico City.

Sacrifice rituals did not exist in the codices associated with Teotihuacan, particularly the Borgia Codices which dealt exclusively with ritual.
 
TimeStar - Mayan Calendar - Comment...

"The Mayan Prophecies" is an excellent book. This book correlates observable events to the calendar in a unique way.

The biggest problem all contemporary scholars have, including Carl Johan Calleman and John Major Jenkins, is that they are trying to interpret ancient Native American calendrics and astronomy with Euramerican sciences. It cannot be done, because ancient Native Americans employed a radically different scientific paradigm.

Let's revisit Zecharia Sitchin's comments on differences between Native American belief and lore compared to other world religions. "The Anunnaki first established their activities in the Americas after the Great Flood, because the Deluge exposed there vast sources of gold -- the metal for which they had come to Earth (needing it to create a shield to save the atmosphere on Nibiru). The arena for that was South America. The next phase was when the leader known in the Old World as Ningishzidda (in Sumerian) or Thoth (in Egypt) was exiled, and came with his followers to Mesoamerica where he was called the Winged Serpent (Quetzalcoatl). Separated from the wars and feuds of the Old World -- resulting among other things in Religion as we know it today -- the people in the Americas apparently retained the olden knowledge and lore untainted."

You cannot interpret the olden knowledge of the Americas with the science that grew out of Middle Eastern religion, which was the basis of European religion by way of Greece. (Jesus was a Jew from the Middle East.) Classical astronomy and physics emerged as a reactionary movement again religious oppression in Europe (David Bohm, Wholeness and The Implicate Order) and was deeply influenced by its reactionary revolt again religion imposed by the "Church" in Europe. The majority of Native Americans educated in Euramerican science and culture have lost the olden knowledge of their ancestors for all intents and purposes.

No contemporary scholar, including Calleman and Jenkins, can replicate the forecasts and predictions the ancient timekeepers made. That the Native people used their ancient calendar to predict storms and geophysical events is documented in the diaries of the earliest priests who came to the Americas as conquerors. THE NATIVE TIMEKEEPERS USED THEIR CALENDAR TO FORECAST GEOPHYSICAL EVENTS.

I'll give Calleman and Jenkins higher scores for credibility when they can make the calendar work like the ancient timekeepers did. So far, neither of them has succeeded. Calleman and Jenkins are using the wrong scientific paradigm for the calendar. I'll give them credit for offering entertaining stories about what they do.

EVIDENCE

The main evidence for the TimeStar's theory that ancient Native Americans viewed the cosmos from a radically different perspective than Euro sciences is the success of the TimeStar's solar predictions. TimeStar consistently forecasts periods of increasing or decreasing solar activity and identified reversal of the sun's north and south poles six months before NASA published their observations on the reversal. A February 2000 press release stated NASA scientists noticed the sun's north and south poles had started reversing in October 2000, and TimeStar published a post about the reversal September 28, 2000.

Scientific protocol requires predictions for a theory, and the TimeStar's calendar theory is the only one supported by accurate predictions.

BACK TO EGYPT

Much of Europe's mathematics and science had originated in Egypt and migrated through Greece to Europe. The Gregorian calendar with seven-day weeks was modeled after the Egyptian timekeeping system, and the metric system was borrowed from Egypt after the French Revolution. The science and religion of Egypt and the Middle East are the bedrock of European culture.

After human languages were confounded and cultures scattered by the Olden Gods, Marduk claimed the earth as his birthright and took control of Egypt with its Great Pyramid. Prior to taking Egypt, Babylon had been Marduk's domain. The confounding of languages and Marduk's control of Egypt were two different events but the fall-out from each has large influenced what we now call civilization on this planet.

Marduk rewrote history after taking over Egypt and exiling Thoth to what is now Mexico (Zecharia Sitchin, The Wars Of Gods And Men). The straw that finally broke the back of Marduk's tolerance for Thoth was Thoth's introduction of the calendar of 13 to humans. According to Sitchin, Marduk delivered a lengthy diatribe about Thoth's calendar of 13. The calendar with a 13-day week appeared in Mexico soon after Thoth was exiled to that area.

I submit that human culture was developed with built-in limitations under Marduk's leadership, and the limitations were designed to protect Marduk's claim that the earth was his. European science and mathematics are the products of Marduk's guidance into a limited scientific and religious paradigm that kept human culture manageable. I sometimes wonder if Marduk had any concept that the limited scientific paradigm he cultivated in the Middle East to become the scientific paradigm in Europe would be as destructive as it has been. Native America under Thoth's guidance maintained the sciences of the Olden Gods far longer than the religions spawned by Marduk.

The ancient calendar Thoth introduced in the Americas cannot be interpreted with the sciences endowed by Marduk, i.e., Euramerican sciences.

End of story.
 
and so we are taught that 13 is unlucky!!!
LOL :D
ha ha ahahahah

and imperial and decimal systems are incompatable
LOL :D
ha ha ahahahaha

and geometry is a fringe concept of maths
LOL :D
ha ha ahahahaha

little boxs on the hill side
and there all made out of ticky tacky
little boxs
little boxs
little boxs
just the same :(
(part of a song i cannot remember the auther[sorry])

THE 3 GREAT CANOES
north, south-america and south pacific
am i rite so far?

are the north europeans the 4th?

and the chineese the 5th?

(ps i am counting "NOT" 'ranking' in the numbering)

keep grooving all
:)
 
Banshee - Where did you get that, or did you write it yourself? What sources did you use, and do you have any images you'd care to link? :) And erm ... was there a specific discussion point? :eek:
 
Well, I got it from an expert on Native Calendars/Natives and so on via a mailinglist. :)

No pics, I am sorry. As soon as I find something I will post it.

It is mostly information about how the current calender found it's way and the interaction how Judao christianity found it's "way" into the lives of the Natives who are the actual inhabitants from the Americas, and what is known, partly, about their way of living. The use of the Ancient Calender and for what purpose and how they used it.

It is some information, which is hopefully not wasted.

Feel free to discuss whatever you want about it...;)
 
Don't suppose you know if any cultures (ancient or not) ahve any prophecies about the world ending? I always wonder why and how people/cultures come up with them...
 
Some Mayan links for info:

maya2.gif

Mayan Civilization
Mayan Astronomy
Mayan Math
Mayan History
Mayan Astronomy and the Codex
 
How is the Toltec religion and Egyptian Book of the dead related in modern terms?

12 times new roman
Banshee,
I am responding to this post due to the fact that you have a good base knowledge of the Aztec vs. Toltec cultures. Last week I came in contact with a person who is involved in the modern version of the Toltec belief system (unfortunatly the modern version seems nothing like the ancient belief system). I was wondering if we could open a dialog about this topic if you have any information on it at all.

This is what I have so far:

I have been searching for information on the tie-in for the modern approach to Shamanism and Toltec based religion. So far my discoveries have lead me to believe that although the main stream books for the Toltec based beliefs are all fluff, the practioners themselves are affilated with what's called "blood magic". Somehow this relates to the misunderstanding of the ancient Toltecs and Aztecs and the confusion between them. The Ancient Egyptians are affiliated with this new religious base through their Book of the Dead and the preists of Amun Ra.
There are no webpages on the subject matter that don't seem to be written in confused cult-speak.
I am going to do research in an actual library today to attempt to gain a detailed understanding of this new trend.
If you have any information I would be very grateful, for my curiosity has to be satisfied.

Thank you for taking your time to read this post.
-Mystics_voice:eek:
 
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