Surveillance Cameras

Oxygen

One Hissy Kitty
Registered Senior Member
Last night my father was watching a show about surveillance cameras placed in public areas. Naturally, the gist of the whole show was one of "Big Brother Is Watching You". What I noticed from the part I watched was that most of the people who were complaining that the cameras were not being used as crime-solving and -deterring tools but rather as privacy-invading tools also behaved like people who complain that the government doesn't do enough to protect them. You know the type, the kind that precariously balance on an ice-covered guard-rail, then slip and break their necks and sue because nobody was there to keep them from doing such a stupid thing in the first place. My question is this: How is the government supposed to protect us if they aren't even allowed to look at us?

I'm not naive. I know that it's very easy to identify dissidents and activists through this method, and I believe that they do use the cameras in this manner, as well. But when a people decide once and for all to overthrow the government, there is no stopping them. Revolutionaries don't care if they're identified or not. I don't see the cameras as a threat to free speech or my implied right to rebel. They're only hazardous if the revolution collapses, but that's the price you pay for civil disobedience and open revolt. If you aren't ready to be a martyr for the cause, stay home.

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.
 
<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">

The problem is, people want to have their own space for such things as scratching an itch without someone watching. Also, companies are making money from the information they collect about you. Even more so, It's irritating to have someone looking over your shoulder.

I think people are concerned about the loss of their privacy because it is becoming so easy to invade spaces which were once safe--including your home. It was once safe to assume that your body and all that it contained were yours and yours only. Now you need to share your urine to get a job. Consider the interest that insurance companies would have in that flask of urine, and the number of test they could run on it, searching for potential health problems.

I have no faith in someone who want's to keep an eye on me. Who knows what they might do with what they learn. It probably won't be in my best interest.

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It's all very large.

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited January 18, 2000).]
 
All right. I'll buy that. But how are the police supposed to prevent crime if they aren't allowed to watch the street? I have personally been told by uniformed police officers that if they don't personally witness the crime, there's very little they can do. Because most cities would rather pour their money into tourist attractions and private interests, police budgets tend to be very small (especially when compared to the budget for this town's loser hockey team). Besides, a large police force might indicate a crime problem. It wouldn't look good to tourists. (Trust me, from a business standpoint, lots of cops are good. From a tourist standpoint, not quite so.) As a result, the long arm of the law has to develop a pair of eyes to tell the arm where to reach.

Have you ever felt like a cop gave you a ticket because he had a quota to meet? You're not too far from wrong. A cop who can't show that he or she has actually been doing their job generally catches hell from their supervisor. Likewise, an entire force that can't bring in the bad guys (mostly because of lack of manpower, other times because of legal technicalities) gets it's budget slashed. Without money to buy resources, the ability to uphold the law diminishes. Our city faces a shortage of police officers. The gangs are ready to party hard. How else can a police force make up for it's lack of manpower through lack of money except by extending it's influence remotely? If cameras aren't the answer, what is? I'd love to hear suggestions.

Oh, about the part about people wanting to scratch themselves in private, these are the same people who have no problem digging for boogers at stoplights. We can ALL seeeeeee yoooouuuuuuuuuuuu! :p :eek: ;)

diver_oxygen.gif


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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.
 
<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">

To start, I suggest that we dispose of the many bonehead laws which are consuming both our police and tax resources. If the police were not involved with social reform, they might have time to protect us from true crime--without cameras. By the way, I feel sorry for our suckers in uniform; they must deal with the worst of society (criminals), they are expected to enforce every trivial and anal retentive law that's tossed at them, and they must fight a drug war which serves no one but those who sell drugs and those who build prisons.

As for a camera in a public mall or a public building, I'm sure you can rationalized its use, just like you can rationalize the use of infrared cameras mounted on helicopters--there's probably one flying near your home now (war on drugs, y' know).

If we need cameras to monitor our streets, then we do have a serious problem, but I don't believe the problem is because we are a society which is criminal by nature. It's because we are a society of fears.

As for picking your nose at the stop light, you better give that a second thought. Someone will eventually take offense by it and make a law forbidding it; they will create a tax to help them enforce their new law; and they will use it to start buying cameras so they can catch you in the act.

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Give them an inch and...

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited January 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Bowser (edited January 18, 2000).]
 
Touche on the booger bit! I agree that we need legal reformation so we can decide which laws should really be there and which ones are just tangling up the system. Which one to go first?

And yes, let's free up the cops to do their jobs!

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.
 
Oxygen,

"Which one to go first?"

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif"> There are so many, and I don't have the resources to give you a thoughtful answer to that question. I will say that if it gives unnecessary privilage to your local, state or federal government, then it's probably a bad idea.

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It's all very large.
 
The first ones I'd throw out are (speaking from the National Socialist Republic of California)
  • the seatbelt/helmet law package They're good ideas, they're lousy laws.
  • the mandatory insurance laws, which in their current wording leave insurance companies wide open to charge whatever they want and we have to pay it because it's required by law to have it.
  • the anti-smoking laws, especially in bars (like you go into a bar for your health...). I'm not a smoker, and I sure don't believe that Big Tobacco is concerned about the common man except as a customer base. What I'm concerned about is how lawmakers can agree with abortionists on "My body, my choice", but don't allow smokers the same way out. This tells me that the law was passed because it's fashionable, not because it's necessary.

Well, that's just three that I'd put up. You may not agree with my choices, but they'd get my vote for the old heave ho.

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

[This message has been edited by Oxygen (edited January 20, 2000).]
 
Oxygen,

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">Those are very good examples. Thank you.

"This tells me that the law was passed because it's fashionable, not because it's necessary."

It's also easier to tread over a minority. If you can paint a negative image onto that minority, your work is that much easier. Which is the case with smokers and bikers.

You are right about the fashion statement. It's a trendy thing to trade our freedom of choice for mandatory safety. It's as if we are saying that we can't take care of our own, and that we need the government to keep us safe from ourselves. I'm not sure who's truly saying that...them or us, but I do feel myself longing for the days when those choices were mine and only mine.




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It's all very large.
 
Oxygen,

You write of the following various laws. Personally I disagree with most of your points.

Seatbelt and helmet laws save lives, and in effect save the state money since fewer people end up flying through windshields or spreading their brain cases on the pavement. Generally taxpayer's have to cover the cost of unhelmeted or unseatbelted morons, especially if they don't have auto insurance, another one of your oppositions.

The smoking laws are more of the same, they're saving the lives of waitresses and non-smokers like myself who get to inhale second-hand smoke whether they want to or not. There are costs associated with smoking, i.e. the costs of treating cancer and all the various operations.

Abortion deals with reproductive rights and the power that men (lawmakers usually) have over women's bodies, smoking is just about the damage you do to yourself and now (fortunately IMHO) the damage you do to others in the State of California.

As for laws to give the heave-ho to, I'd say the criminalization of marijuana. The Calif. voter's approved Prop. 215 and it's being held up in the courts because of Drug War paranoia and misinformation. This could be a long pro-drug rant but it's not going to be.

Originally posted by Oxygen:
The first ones I'd throw out are (speaking from the National Socialist Republic of California)
  • the seatbelt/helmet law package They're good ideas, they're lousy laws.
  • the mandatory insurance laws, which in their current wording leave insurance companies wide open to charge whatever they want and we have to pay it because it's required by law to have it.
  • the anti-smoking laws, especially in bars (like you go into a bar for your health...). I'm not a smoker, and I sure don't believe that Big Tobacco is concerned about the common man except as a customer base. What I'm concerned about is how lawmakers can agree with abortionists on "My body, my choice", but don't allow smokers the same way out. This tells me that the law was passed because it's fashionable, not because it's necessary.

Well, that's just three that I'd put up. You may not agree with my choices, but they'd get my vote for the old heave ho.



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"Nobody has seen it all." - Marco Polo
 
brainflash-I believe that marijuana should be regulated in the same manner as alcohol because of what it does to your perceptions and reaction times.

Cigarettes are a touchy subject. I grew up around smokers but do not smoke them myself. Still, I believe that this second-hand smoke crusade is based more on propaganda than on fact, especially when taken in the context of outlawing smoking in bars. Every waitress I know (and I spend a great deal of time in restaurants) is aware that bars are (traditionally) smoky, dimly-lit places. They know the conditions before they take the job. As far as the patrons of said bar, do you mean to tell me that they go into bars for their health? Man, I want to start seeing their doctors. I equate smoking and abortion on the grounds of "my body, my choice", and don't try to tell me that abortion doesn't hurt anybody else. I agree that the advertising close to schools and such should be regulated, as should alcohol ads, but what they need to do is focus more on education, not legislation. Nobody I know took up smoking because they thought it was cool, as the current campaigns would have us believe. They took it up as a way to quickly soothe their nerves from the stresses that living in poverty handed them. (I think the impotence ads are funny, though.)

Seatbelt and helmet laws haven't lowered any costs to the taxpayers. My vehicle is my private property. What I do in it should be my own choice as long as I am not endangering the lives of anybody else. Drinking, doing drugs, smoking pot, yacking on a cell phone, etcetera, all contribute to retarding the driver's ability to operate a motor vehicle. Not wearing a seatbelt or a helmet in no way interefers with that ability.

Insurance laws have their place, but the insurance companies are not well-regulated as to what to charge. Low-income (but not low enough for welfare)working people often depend on their vehicles not nly to get from home to work, but often are required to use them in the line of their jobs. If they cannot afford the insurance, they must take public transportation and are now less valuable to their jobs for not having their own transportation. No boss wants to hear "The bus was late..." even if it was. The insurance companies should be made to have their rates equal no greater than a certain percentage of the insured's net income. (I hate it when they base things of off the gross income.)

While I'm on the subject of unfair automobile laws, I'd also throw out the smog check laws. The common line handed out to the public is "Gross polluters cause 50% of all of the automobile smog in the air." This may be true, but what they fail to tell you is that automobile in their entirety only account for 3% of the total smog out there, which makes gross polluters only making up 1.5%. The other 97% of the smog comes from factories, industrial waste, and naturally decaying plant and animal matter. Okay, a vehicle belching out plumes of black smoke (city buses included, did you ever have to breathe that crap?) are out of line. But it's unjust to take a sample of a small section of the atmosphere, which in many cases was the busiest possible intersection in a large city at commute time, hold the sensor up about 6 or 7 feet, and then taking that reading as the planet's smog rating. Their information on automobile smog is incomplete and misleading. The laws are therefore founded on, once again, fashionable thinking rather than on any real necessity. The laws should instead be turned towards the factories that have the funds and resources to become more efficient and less wasteful.

This, of course, is only my opinion. They are the laws that affect me directly, so they are the first ones that I chose as examples. But about ones that don't affect me directly, what do you think about the "Zero Tolerance" laws?

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I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.
 
Good points. We may have to agree to disagree. Marijuana should be legalized but have similar penalties related to drunk driving and such. Marijuana is a much safer drug -- some article in High Times about the ratio of effective to lethal dose. 1/8 for cocaine, 1/4 for alcohol, and something like 1/400 for marijuana. (Numbers are approximations/guesses but you get the point I hope. It's practically impossible to O.D. on weed.)

There's a nice Catch-22 about getting medical trials to determine pot's efficacy. It's a controlled substance so it can't be given out for a study and the only way to get it less controlled would be to do studies.

Cigarettes: well I think the argument that waitresses know what they're getting into is a lame one. That doesn't justify keeping smoking legal in eating establishments or bars. "Just because it's been that way" is not an excuse, and certainly know way to effect change in the world.

Vehicles may be private property but driving on the road is a privilege. I'll agree that drinking, cell phoning etc. interferes with driving but I the idea that seatbelts "restrict freedom" within the car is so stupid. (A french person once argued that p.o.v. with me.) Maybe I'm sensitive because a seat belt once saved my face from smashing into my windshield at 40mph!! :0

Anyone driving has a responsibility to other drivers, not just to themselves. It's very easy to lose sight of that fact in this American, individualistic society. Personally I think protecting oneself with seatbelts and helmets makes all the sense in the world.

I went skydiving. The instructor said we'd taken more risk driving to the airport than actually leaping from a plane (statistically.) Listen to the traffic report in the morning, people are crashing all the time. Driving is risky, safety devices minimize the risk to loss of life. Driving is not just about YOU and the ROAD, it's about traffic and the road. Road rage comes to mind as the clash between the individuality that is marketed to us in car commercials and the FACTS of sharing the road with other selfish drivers...

On the other hand your criticisms of the insurance industry are good ones.

The smog check issue: well I think we need to be doing something and smog checks give the appearence of action on air quality. I'm skeptical of your analysis because obviously smog is a problem in and around cities, even if traffic is only 3% of the source.

You may be right that it's "fashionable" to do smog checks but on the other hand if industry is the responsible party then it's also industry which is funding the environmental reports that are biased toward things not being such a big deal because it's in their best interest to minimze the problem.

I think repealing smog check laws or environmental laws would be idiocy. Corporations do not show much interest in protecting the environment despite the fact, as a LOGGER put it, "there are no jobs on a dead planet."

I think waiting for the time that all scientific evidence, biased or not, agrees that something needs to be done will be too late. The studies are conducted to buy more time, to keep business rolling etc. IMHO. And if studies confirm the environmentalists' claims then lawsuits are filed.

It's unfortunate because this culture, our way of life, cars, traffic, smog, suburban sprawl etc. is not sustainable. :eek:

Perhaps I've strayed from the original topic?
 
Oxygen

"But about ones that don't affect me directly, what do you think about the 'Zero Tolerance' laws?"

<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">I think they have been very successful if our goals as a nation are to place a lot of harmless fellow citizens in prison, abduct leaders of small countries, spend millions of tax dollars, and create a police force whose tactics and arsenals resemble those of the military.

I have to admit, things are quiet around Portland these days because most of our gangs are in jail now. We rarely hear about drive-by shootings. But I wonder if our attitude towards drugs was, in truth, the catalyst which created these gangs. Had drugs been legal, would we have seen such social chaos?

I feel that the "get tough" policy on drugs is just one of two possible solutions. Why we chose this one is anybody's guess. It's funny to think that we haven't learned from our first prohibition, but here we are again.



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It's all very large.
 
Brainflash--

Whether you've spun too far off topic or not, I wanted to mention a couple of things about the Drug War itself.

According to Herer's "The Emperor Wears No Clothes", between 1985-1995, asprin is infinitely more deadly than marijuana. Actuarial, coroner's, and other statistical data were assembled, looking for PRIMARY cause of death. Asprin killed 10,000+ people in that period, marijuana 0. It's an old issue, too. We've known this for years. But the "killer" thing, as such, is how desperate the Drug War gets on that point. I remember a King County (Washington) sheriff who died in a "pot raid". One of the "pot growers" opened up a sawed-off shotgun at nearly point-blank. What the media, in their frenzied punditry, overlooked in this specific case was that the warrant was for methamphetamine; there were six ounces of pot on the site, and over ten pounds of street-ready crank. And the Drug Warriors made it a marijuana issue.

Also--and this goes for anyone who cares about justice--check in on the Peter McWilliams trial. It's a federal trial for conspiracy to grow pot, in California, in direct opposition to 215. Furthermore, the judge has ruled that the jury cannot be informed that Mr. McWilliams, the accused, is dying of AIDS. Well, he has AIDS. I'm quite sure our prison system will be what he actually dies of, but hey, it's a pot-related death, y'know? But, in a medicinal marijuana state where the accused was using for medicinal purposes, it's odd that a federal judge would disregard those issues. Oh, wait, it's a drug trial--it's not odd at all, is it?

Thanx, though. I needed to get that off my chest for some reason or another.

--Tiassa :cool:

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
 
Brainflash,

I think that you have some good points, but you seem too eager to let others regulate your daily life. It is our right to expect privacy in our lives, to be left alone. If we can't retain that privilege, then our future will be...mundane.

"Cigarettes: well I think the argument that waitresses know what they're getting into is a lame one."

No, I think it speaks for the notion of taking responsibility for oneself.

"I think protecting oneself with seatbelts and helmets makes all the sense in the world."

It sure does, but so does better eating habits. Should we make that decision for others too?

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It's all very large.
 
In general, I think the only benefit of 24-7 surveillance of a population is that it's easier to find the Communists, and then you don't have to ask people to stand up in Congress and lie to support your case.

The Red Scare is, I think, a worthy analogy. Certainly, they didn't have cameras everywhere in society, but there exists a fundamental question: okay, you've established that people "sympathize" with Communism ... what, specifically is illegal about that? (I might mention that, in 1984, the Communists fielded a presidential candidate.)

As a related note, during the 1980's, it became "common knowledge" (take what you will for the degree of assumption among schoolchildren) that we had satellites that could read your newspaper. That sounded scary, but I already knew that it didn't matter in principle: the government could do nothing about what they saw. There's the Bill of Rights, and all sorts of sticky legal stuff for prosecutors to go through if they had to resort to a spy satellite photo in order to prosecute an American citizen. (What if the satellite was looking at, say, Georgia, and saw a thermal image of a married couple feloniously engaging in fellatio? Can you prosecute? Do you really want to admit it took a spy satellite?) True or not, I wasn't worried about the satellites.

A friend of mine is on file as an FBI suspect for the simple crime of leaning against a fence during the 1990 Goodwill Games; the Bureau had apparently installed cameras that took pictures of people who got too close to the fence that marked the athletes' preparation areas. If a bomb ever goes off near where she lives, it's possible she will be questioned as an accessory to terrorism .... (In 1991, a priest at my school was questioned by the Bureau regarding some act of subversion on the grounds that his brother had been photographed by the FBI at a late-60's/early-70's protest at the University of Washington.)

I've heard it asserted on an A&E special that, in London, once you enter the city, the government knows where you are and where you're going at all times. That brings to mind images of the sinister control rooms of various Hollywood supervillains ... how many people does the government devote to monitoring these video feeds?

An Australian gentleman told me, just the other day, that there is a massive video-surveillance array in Australia, but only 1/3 or so of the cameras work ... conformity from fear of being observed.

And I won't start on the Drug War because it's insidious, wrong, and requires days' worth of ranting. Suffice it to say that nothing about the Drug War is legitimate. The very basis of the so-called war is the "potential" for crime. I mean, it's so important to catch you with that joint that they'll catalog hours of thermal images of you having sex or using the bathroom, or otherwise.

* * * * *

The bottom line for me is that video surveillance as a general, daily activity for law enforcement, is bogus. Certainly we have a crime problem, but so little is done to attack the root of crime--I would assert economic stratification as a generalization.

But--if we take gang crime, for instance--what happens if we try educating our children better, so that when they perceive an imbalance that they don't find fair, there are better options for solving the problem than picking up a gun and running drugs and hookers. Come on, if kids are joining organizations whose initiation is to beat you within an inch of your life, or roll the dice and have sex with that many men in a night--I'd say we're not teaching them much of use. Some of the crime we use surveillance for will go away under these circumstances.

But that's not nearly the whole picture. Something about the propriety of laws is important. Just because a law makes something illegal does not mean the law is right. It was against the law to teach a man to read if his skin was dark ... that wasn't too long ago. It was--technically, still is--illegal to serve alcohol to a native American in Tacoma, Washington. You can be arrested in Florida for using slang.

Thus, we need laws that get things done. Consider: one arrest every minute in this country for a drug "offense" (80% are simple possession; up to 75% of that for marijuana). Sure, there are important issues to discuss regarding drugs and crime. But alcohol Prohibition ended largely because the people were sick of the increased violence that occurred after Prohibition was enacted. Furthermore, would pot be illegal if growers had the finances to buy politicians the way the tobacco and alcohol industries do? (A 1992 pot-legalization effort in Oregon was outspent by a cadre of "anti-drug" opponents with vital interests in the state's industries: cotton, petroleum, paper, and pharmaceutical interests outspent the initiative sponsors tenfold; they all have products that would compete with hempen alternatives.) And the whole time, nobody has ever given me a reason why pot is illegal; well, ok ... not a good one that makes any sense. What, aside from swelling the prison ranks 900% in twenty-five years, has the War on Drugs accomplished? Very little, in terms of overall effect. I would assert these laws are bad.

The Oregon State Patrol flies airplanes over Portland, looking for criminals--specifically, they're looking for speeders on twelve miles of highway. (Funny thing about that is that they should've been on the ground; High Times magazine once featured a photograph of a magnificent Northern Lights #5/Skunk breed growing six and a half feet tall within casual spotting distance of Interstate 205, where the planes fly.) I should mention, for relevance, that the ticketing process is simple: plane flies over highway, clocks vehicle manually; passenger takes photograph of car, records alleged speed; driver of vehicle receives ticket in mail, with photograph of their license plate (allegedly taken during the act), and the ticket cannot be argued (it's a popular Oregon judicial opinion that it is not the place of the courts to question the honesty or dignity of the state's law enforcement bodies).

And what does it all get us?

A huge tax bill.
Little effect on crime.
Law enforcement too busy to have a consistent impact.
A measureable segment (barely under 1%, but rising) of the population in federal prisons, and even more in local facilities.
A paranoid population.
Politicians writing bad laws for votes.

Thus I would say that, while video surveillance has its place (specific targets, special events, and so forth, and all with warrants), the increased use of the technique in law enforcement has had a thoroughly negative impact.

Furthermore, with Miranda in question, and the courts having removed a citizen's right to avoid the police without being charged with a crime, where's it all leading? It's a popular notion with gun-toters (if they take our machine guns, then they'll take our shotguns ... ad nauseum.)

Specifically, as to how the government can protect us ... how do we view government? (Consider, please, this contextual idea: before the Civil War, federal documents referred to "these United States"; afterward, the term became "the United States". That's a big change in how the people saw their union and its government.) Has the noose of law enforcement gotten tighter, say, since World War II?

But by and large, education seems to be the thing lacking among most criminals. Why not give it a try? It might work.

I might ask, in this case, that we consider the CDA and various internet-related crime bills. The congressmen who voted for the CDA apparently saw the internet as something wholly removed from expression. Is an e-mail of different legal standing than snail mail? If so, why? (Rhetorical questions, but if anyone's got a theory, I'll be happy to give it some thought.) Or is a real-time chat any different from a phone call? Are the words and pictures any different from those in a magazine? In the sense of that distinction, we're also recalling a congress that seriously considered attempting to ban people, by law, from the internet for the crime of advocating drug legalization. What I'm getting at here is that the lawmakers never have been that great with these issues. So much so that people cheered when Clinton and Newt shut down the government; not because they supported either side, but because it meant there would be no other legislation taking place for a few days ... less time for Congress to do its hurt.

But in order to protect ourselves, as individuals, communities, and as a nation, from crime, we need to reconsider what we call crime; we need to educate against the foundations of criminal motives; we need to remember that this government is subject to OUR will, as people. We don't work to support this economy, or these laws. They're there for us. And if the laws don't help us, they need to be fixed.

And then we can see where we need to point the cameras.

Thank you for your kind patience with this post ... :D

--Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
 
<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">Yeah, Tiassa! I loved it...time well spent.
Thank you.

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It's all very large.
 
New tidbit:
http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/camm_20000202.html

Several observation cameras were recently placed in Everett, Washington, a town just north of Seattle.

An excerpt: "During a New Year's Eve test run, police were able to track and later apprehend an assault suspect, Parker said. Last week, Everett police arrested two teenagers on Hewitt Avenue after a camera showed them smoking what authorities said was marijuana." (Italic emphasis added by Tiassa)

Here we go ...

Two teenagers ... smoking. Were they visibly under 18? Or did authorities begin their action based on the supposition that these two people, seen from a distance by a general observation camera, were definitively too young to be smoking?

Furthermore, I'm wondering how you can arrest someone because you believe that their actions represent the "illegal" version of what's happening?

I might note that before I became a regular pot smoker, I carried a small bolt-pipe in my pocket which I used to consume small quantities of Drum tobacco. So the absence of a cigarette does not, in my opinion, mean the pipe they're smoking has illegal stuff in it.

So what I'm wondering is ... can we trust the police--in this case, the Everett police, but this is hardly an uncommon situation--to execute their duties faithfully, as regards the use of video surveillance without specific targets? Or are we going to be arresting people soon because the cops think you smacked your kid's butt too hard in public? Hey! They could issue tickets for illegal right turns recorded on the cameras, too. But that's what I'm getting at.

It just seems a far stretch from watching a guy shoot another person on video surveillance to arresting two people because you think they're too young to be smoking tobacco, thus logically concluding that they're smoking pot.

But ... we'll know what it's all worth if they ever get those two to trial. Otherwise, it seems to be a simple case of harassing law-abiding citizens because it's easier than enforcing legitimate laws.

Thanx for listening to me--er, reading me--while I whine about it. :cool:

--Tiassa

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Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this feast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")
 
tiassa,


<img src = "http://users.esc.net.au/~nitro/BBoard_member_gifs/bowser_anim.gif">That is interesting. I know, the thinking in Washington State is very obtuse when it comes to priorities. Up there, you can do time in jail for having a pipe in your possession. It all came about during the big crack scare.

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It's all very large.
 
Those must be pretty good cameras if they ID the suspects' ages and could smell the pot through them. Otherwise, maybe these two people were sharing little more than a hand-rolled cigarette, which does tend to happen when trendy lawmakers jack up the price of something past the point of it being affordable to the working stiff. I'd like to know how this one turns out.
 
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