Supreme Court Upholds Gun Right

your right, better trained and armed (and armored) cops are a good thing. I dont dispute you there.

I was watching a programe on a serial killer in the kimbolies the other night on CIA and was left with nothing but an immence level of respect for the WA tactical responce unit. Not only were they very proffessional but they did stuff that not even regular police offices would do (like advance on a guy firing automatic rifles at the air wing).

That doesnt mean i want to see guns in the hands of idiots like you, even if you DID only use them to kill people in the highly UNLIKLY event you were at a shooting but you would end up only getting yourself or someone else killed because you dont know what the fuck your doing. You have none of the training required to deal with these situations
 
Asguard:
That doesnt mean i want to see guns in the hands of idiots like you

YOU'RE calling ME an idiot? That's just rich.

I'm just curious, Assguard. Let's assume you're facing a serial killer. Would you want a firearm? Or would you rather be unarmed? Simple question.
 
There was a shooting in sydney?

i dont rember that at all. As to the one in victoria im assuming your talking about knight

Strathfield and Milperra (NSW). As well as the Hoddle and Queen Street(s) massacres (VIC). These were prior to Port Arthur.

madanthonywayne said:
All right you Aussies, you're going to just have to accept the fact that Americans regard guns as the last and best defense against a tyrannical government.
You might want to tell your fellow American, BR that. Apparently the Muslims are coming and he wants to be prepared.:p

lepustimidus said:
Yep, I was quite aware of that. My point was that a mass shooting occured AFTER tighter gun laws were implemented in response to the Port Arthur massacre. Fancy that.
Handgun laws were not as strict. They were made stricter after the Monash shootings.

But they didn't stop the shooting at Monash. What's your answer to that, Bells? Oh wait, I already know, more anti-gun laws.
The Monash shooter had acquired his weapons legally. He even had a license to own all of them. Hence why the gun laws for handguns were tightened after the event.

But how many have there been since handgun laws were also tightened after Monash?

They were brought in due to a paranoid populance and a nanny government.
The majority of the populace were old enough to remember the fear and horror brought on by the shootings prior to Port Arthur. Port Arthur was the nail in the coffin for gun advocates.

My cousin's husband worked in the Australia Post building in Queen Street and was there during the Queen Street Massacre. He was a gun owner at the time. He managed to escape with his life when they heard the gun shots and rushed for the stairs and headed upwards when they looked through the window and saw Vitkovic's reflection in the windows of the neighbouring building killing the staff members on the floor below him. When he came home many hours later, he took his legally acquired weapon and his gun license, went to the police station and surrendered it. He's never owned one since.

The populace weren't paranoid. They had had enough. You were most probably too young to remember those times. I remember them avidly. I remember my parents rushing home and camping the phone to hear of their niece's husband and terrified if he was one of the people killed. My cousin (his wife) suffered a severe depression in the weeks afterwards. He still gets the shakes if he so much as hears a car backfire. They both lost friends that day. No, the populace weren't paranoid. Had you been old enough to understand back then, your opinions might be different.
 
It's mesmerising.
I emailed it to the wife and demanded she prepare some for the 4th of July.

Bells said:
The question that interests me would be whether the US would find it acceptable for the Government to ban automatic weapons for domestic sale and use. My guess is that they would not.
You might be surprised by the number of people who would support that. In 2004, a poll found that most Americans favor stricter gun control. The anti-gun crescendo is nowhere near what it was in the 1990s, and many Democrats now realize it is going to hurt them more than it helps them. It may be less of an issue politically, but it is around, and due to the cyclical nature of things it will probably rear its head again 20 years from now.

You also have to consider that there is a LOT of propaganda in the whole "gun debate" here. The Assault Weapons Ban is a perfect example. A weapon that has any two of five features was illegal for its decade-long tenure. Said features were mostly cosmetic, having very little to do with the operation of the weapon, but that didn't stop people from championing its effectiveness for political purposes. All that ended up happening were that manufacturers adjusted their firearms to look less scary:

omgunzoh3.jpg


The rifle on the top is a H&K G36 that has had its trigger and action groups modified for semiautomatic fire only, which means one bullet each time you pull the trigger. Other than a few obvious aesthetic differences and a very slight and easily removeable set of barbs in the magazine port that prevents the insertion of 30 round magazines, the rifle on the bottom is no different. The one on the top was illegal, but the one on the bottom (H&K SL8), despite being almost functionally identical, was created after the AWB went into effect specifically because H&K wanted to market a G36 type weapon in the US. Internally it was the exact same thing, but since the morons who drafted the AWB knew jack shit about guns, it was completely legal. The retardation also ended up with some really hilarious unintended consequences, like banning Olympic target pistols or outlawing weapons like the H&K PSG-1, the $10,000 Lamborghini of sniper rifles that has its stock custom molded at the factory to fit the arm of its customer, and is of little worth to anyone but a very skilled marksman (i.e. not your rank and file gang banger).

To be fair, it is true that since the turn of the millenium, the pendulum has swung the other way. Gun control is a dead issue politically; voters have other priorities, the Republicans only give it lip service, and the Democrats don't want to touch it. Bill Clinton said in his book that it could have cost Gore the 2000 election when many disgruntled, gun owning union members chose to vote for Bush instead of with their union in a few key battleground states. For the time being, it is off the table as far as elections are concerned.

Also, the number of states who issue concealed carry permits has increased steadily:

rtcpq1.gif


The blue states (shall issue) will issue a permit to an applicant unless the issuing official (sheriff or chief of police) can prove, with evidence, to a judge if necessary, that the applicant is unfit to carry concealed. The yellow states (may issue) "may" issue a permit, but entirely at the discretion of the issuing authority. In a may issue state, the sheriff can deny your application because they don't like you since back in high school when you got stinkfinger from his sister. Red is for commies and green is for YEE HAW FREEDOM. The key fact here is that shall issue states have the burden of proof to show that you should not be allowed to carry concealed, while in may issue states, it is up to you to prove you should.

Anyway, never underestimate the myopia of the American voter. Pandering to the "public good" has been used to justify some pretty retarded bullshit over the years.
 
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Handgun laws were not as strict. They were made stricter after the Monash shootings.

Precisely. The response to a failure of anti-gun laws is to institute more anti-gun laws. Ridiculous.

But how many have there been since handgun laws were also tightened after Monash?

I repeat, how many terrorist attacks have there been in America since the institution of the Patriot Act, and the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq? In case you won't answer, I'll respond for you. None. But does that necessarily mean that the above measures are responsible? I'll answer again. No, it doesn't.

To further illustrate my point, Australia was 'massacre free' for 9 years prior to the Port Arthur massacre, despite the absence of the strict anti-gun laws that existed after the Port Arthur and Monash shootings.

The majority of the populace were old enough to remember the fear and horror brought on by the shootings prior to Port Arthur. Port Arthur was the nail in the coffin for gun advocates.

Yes, it was. Public hysteria goes a long way to restricting the rights of citizens, which is demonstrated by the Patriot Act, and other ridiculous measures to combat terrorism.

My cousin's husband worked in the Australia Post building in Queen Street and was there during the Queen Street Massacre. He was a gun owner at the time. He managed to escape with his life when they heard the gun shots and rushed for the stairs and headed upwards when they looked through the window and saw Vitkovic's reflection in the windows of the neighbouring building killing the staff members on the floor below him. When he came home many hours later, he took his legally acquired weapon and his gun license, went to the police station and surrendered it. He's never owned one since.

What's your point here, exactly? Your husband's cousin is misguided and weak hearted, so that somehow proves that guns should be banned? That since your husband's cousin surrendered his gun, everyone else should do likewise? :shrug:

The populace weren't paranoid. They had had enough.

The populance were cowed into submission by exaggerations and fear. 7 people shot in a massacre pales in comparison to the death toll on the roads in just one Australian state during the year. Yet everyone is terrified of guns, while many of these same people don't think twice about driving on the roads.

The simple fact of the matter is that Australia is becoming more and more of a nanny state, where individual rights are curtailed in an insulting and condescending attempt to 'protect' citizens, a society where wusses are in a perpetual state of fear. Witness the laws against teachers hugging children, the strict laws against gun replicas which can't even fire, the paranoia over child molestation, the condemnation of Steve Irwin and his 'stunt' with his baby daughter and the crocodile, I could go on and on.

Had you been old enough to understand back then, your opinions might be different.

I lived through the Port Arthur massacres and the Monash University shooting. I've also suffered from a government who is staunchly anti-firearm. That doesn't change the fact that I still support the right of Australians to 'bear arms', as the Americans would put it. Again, if you don't like firearms, don't purchase them. Don't impinge on my right to do so. Such laws are discriminatory against those who live in the country, and women.
 
And so it begins. A lawsuit has already been filed to throw out Chicago's ban on guns (apparently within minutes of the Supreme Court ruling):
Gun Lobby Quickly Sues To Overturn Chicago Ban
U.S. Supreme Court: Americans May Own Guns For Protection, Hunting; Ruling Casts Doubt On City's Decades Old Law

Chicago has a similar ban on handguns and within minutes of the high court's ruling, the Illinois State Rifle Association began the court fight to get Chicago's ban overturned as well.

In Chicago, unless your gun was purchased before the ban went into effect in 1982, it is illegal to possess a handgun within city limits. Only police officers, aldermen and a handful of others are exempt from the ban. While other firearms can be registered, under current law, handguns cannot be registered and are considered illegal.

But gun rights advocates hope to change that. The Illinois State Rifle Association filed a lawsuit with just that purpose in mind at 9:15 a.m.

"We want to overturn this ban. It's pretty onerous. It takes the right of self-defense away from every Chicago citizen," said Richard Pearson, director of the Illinois State Rifle Association.

The National Rifle Association also plans to file lawsuits in Chicago and several suburbs, as well as San Francisco, challenging handgun restrictions there based on Thursday's outcome. http://cbs2chicago.com/local/supreme.court.handguns.2.757471.html
 
MH let me tell you a story which was told to me by the director of SAAS (the ambulance service).

He was taking a class of vollie country ambo's and this new ambo was telling him about a case where she was a third on a crew. Her crew had atended a residential residence because a women was injured. They walked to the door and went to knock but the door was open and it opened all the way when they did. They were confrunted with a women covered in blood slumped against the wall so the two ambo's ran to her. This new girl felt that something was wrong and looked behind the door to see a man standing there which a loaded crossbow. She and the other two ambo's RAN back to the ambulance and called SAPOL. It turned out that the man was depressed or something and had shot his partner with the crossbow and then waited for the ambo's to arive. Thankfully he didnt shoot any of them but he could quite easerly have killed them.

This is the danger of the public having weapons

Another case, i was on a call out to an unresponcive call direct and i was told to ONLY stick an arm through the door to start with because to many ambos have been shot by vietnarm vets thinking that they are there to rob the house
 
If the situation in the US became so desperate that Posse Comitatus bit the shitter and the US military was ordered to act on the civilian population, we would be too busy deserting and overthrowing the government to shoot our friends and families.

If that were true, the citizenry wouldn't need to keep arms, they could rely on the 'well regulated militia' that is the army, to protect them.

So so individuals need guns? Or would the army save them?

Let's face it, there will never be a revolution, so you do not need the tools for one in the hands of the general public.
 
James Madison in Federalist No. 46 wrote:

Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments,to which the people are attached, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.

It's an interesting quote...but it's pretty clearly more on the side of "guns are good in the hands of militias" than it is on the "inherent right of self-defense". Even the Court did not say that people have a right to guns so they can take violent action against the federal government.

The official governmental line is still that you do not have the right to shoot government officials simply because you think them tyrannical. You can try to lead an insurrection, of course, but if you lose, expect to be put to death for murder or terrorism (they likely would not even dignify the crime by labeling it "treason"), the right to bear arms notwithstanding. On the other hand, if you win that battle, then the second amendment's protection of your right was irrelevant.
 
It's an interesting quote...but it's pretty clearly more on the side of "guns are good in the hands of militias" than it is on the "inherent right of self-defense". Even the Court did not say that people have a right to guns so they can take violent action against the federal government.

The official governmental line is still that you do not have the right to shoot government officials simply because you think them tyrannical. You can try to lead an insurrection, of course, but if you lose, expect to be put to death for murder or terrorism (they likely would not even dignify the crime by labeling it "treason"), the right to bear arms notwithstanding. On the other hand, if you win that battle, then the second amendment's protection of your right was irrelevant.

You forget that the Militia is every able bodied man, and today women, in the United States, that was confirmed in the decision, and the Decision recognizes, that military weapons are exactly what the 2nd Amendment is all about.

The interesting thing is that after reading the SCOTUS decision, protection has been expanded to hunting and sports weapons
 
If that were true, the citizenry wouldn't need to keep arms, they could rely on the 'well regulated militia' that is the army, to protect them.

So so individuals need guns? Or would the army save them?

Let's face it, there will never be a revolution, so you do not need the tools for one in the hands of the general public.

6 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER
Opinion of the Court
Three provisions of the Constitution refer to “the people”
in a context other than “rights”—the famous preamble
(“We the people”), §2 of Article I (providing that “the people”
will choose members of the House), and the Tenth
Amendment (providing that those powers not given the
Federal Government remain with “the States” or “the
people”). Those provisions arguably refer to “the people”
acting collectively—but they deal with the exercise or
reservation of powers, not rights. Nowhere else in the
Constitution does a “right” attributed to “the people” refer
to anything other than an individual right.6
What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution
that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously
refers to all members of the political community, not an
unspecified subset. As we said in United States v. Verdugo-
Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):
 
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It's an interesting quote...but it's pretty clearly more on the side of "guns are good in the hands of militias" than it is on the "inherent right of self-defense". Even the Court did not say that people have a right to guns so they can take violent action against the federal government.

The official governmental line is still that you do not have the right to shoot government officials simply because you think them tyrannical. You can try to lead an insurrection, of course, but if you lose, expect to be put to death for murder or terrorism (they likely would not even dignify the crime by labeling it "treason"), the right to bear arms notwithstanding. On the other hand, if you win that battle, then the second amendment's protection of your right was irrelevant.

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER

In interpreting this text, we are guided by the
principle that “[t]he Constitution was written to be understood
by the voters; its words and phrases were used in
their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical
meaning.” United States v. Sprague, 282 U. S. 716, 731
(1931); see also Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 188 (1824).
Normal meaning may of course include an idiomatic
meaning, but it excludes secret or technical meanings that
would not have been known to ordinary citizens in the
founding generation.

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER

1. Operative Clause.
a. “Right of the People.” The first salient feature of
the operative clause is that it codifies a “right of the people.”
The unamended Constitution and the Bill of Rights
use the phrase “right of the people” two other times, in the
First Amendment’s Assembly-and-Petition Clause and in
the Fourth Amendment’s Search-and-Seizure Clause. The
Ninth Amendment uses very similar terminology (“The
enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall
not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by
the people”). All three of these instances unambiguously
refer to individual rights, not “collective” rights, or rights
that may be exercised only through participation in some
corporate body.5
 
It's an interesting quote...but it's pretty clearly more on the side of "guns are good in the hands of militias" than it is on the "inherent right of self-defense". Even the Court did not say that people have a right to guns so they can take violent action against the federal government.

But the real effect is that groups that want to resist the government can. Just look at how difficult it is to wipe out gangs. For good or ill, a population with lots of guns is more difficult to rule in a totalitarian manner.
 
The Second Amendment, covers several points;

1. It give the People the weapons, and ability to remove a tyrannical government, and defend the Constitution.

2. It is also for a common defence of the Nation, that can be carried out in time of war, or insurrection.

3. It guarantees access, to the weapons, needed for self defence to the common people.

The right of the people to defend themselves, the Nation, and the Constitution is what the 2nd Amendment is all about.



Now Tiassa do some research into the Islam, it is a religion of conquest, it has always been so.

Dar'al Harb (or Dar'ul Harb -arab. House of War): All countries and areas, in which Moslems do not have the power yet. In Islam the world is uncompromisingly divided between dar al-Islam, the House of Islam, and dar al-Harb, the House of War, where infidels have not yet been subjugated to Islam. The Jihad is the “struggle” to expand Islam, to create the conditions where Moslems may rule, and Islam may prevail. It has no end, until its goal is reached, whatever periods of quiescence must be observed. The deceptive Islam means Peace is thus part of the Jihad.

Dar'al Islam (or Dar'ul Islam -arab. House of Peace): All countries in the present or in the past to be Islamic controlled. Therefore also Spain, the Balkans and Israel belong to dar-al-Islam. Whenever Moslems talk about Islam as peaceful, they really mean the entire world ruled by Allah, nothing less. Places or lands of infidels aren't so pacified until they are ruled solely by the Sharia.

Dawa (Dawad or D'awa): Request to join Islam, last ultimatum before 'legitimate' conquest by force.

I'm sorry it doesn't mention 1 or 3. Your reading it as if the framers wrote it today. You need to look at with the context of it being written 200 years ago.
 
Precisely. The response to a failure of anti-gun laws is to institute more anti-gun laws. Ridiculous.
On the contrary. The handgun laws have been quite effective since they were implemented. How many mass shootings have there been in Australia since then?

I'll give you a hint. It starts with a "z" and ends with an "o".

I repeat, how many terrorist attacks have there been in America since the institution of the Patriot Act, and the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq? In case you won't answer, I'll respond for you. None. But does that necessarily mean that the above measures are responsible? I'll answer again. No, it doesn't.

To further illustrate my point, Australia was 'massacre free' for 9 years prior to the Port Arthur massacre, despite the absence of the strict anti-gun laws that existed after the Port Arthur and Monash shootings.
I'm sure Americans would disagree with you about the ineffectiveness of the Patriot Act. They think the legislation is apt and have prevented other attacks.

Australia was massacre free for 9 years even with the gun laws that were in place. Yes MH, there were laws in place before then. But here's the thing. They weren't enough because we still had the Port Arthur massacre. Can you see where I am going with this? It was that massacre that tipped the scales in the eyes of the Australian public. It was just too damned easy for people like Bryant to obtain a weapon legally. The same applies for the Monash shooting. He obtained his handguns legally and too easily.

Yes, it was. Public hysteria goes a long way to restricting the rights of citizens, which is demonstrated by the Patriot Act, and other ridiculous measures to combat terrorism.
The Patriot Act is a completely different species to the gun laws put in place in Australia.

What's your point here, exactly? Your husband's cousin is misguided and weak hearted, so that somehow proves that guns should be banned? That since your husband's cousin surrendered his gun, everyone else should do likewise?
It was my cousin's husband who was one of the survivors from that building and even he, a responsible gun owner who loved his weapon, saw that having a gun was bad.

The populance were cowed into submission by exaggerations and fear. 7 people shot in a massacre pales in comparison to the death toll on the roads in just one Australian state during the year. Yet everyone is terrified of guns, while many of these same people don't think twice about driving on the roads.
Exaggeration and fear? There was no exaggeration. Fear? Yes. Hell yes there was fear that any law abiding citizen could walk into a gun shop, register for a license and then go out and shoot up the general public. Port Arthur taught us one thing and that was Bryant should never have been allowed to purchase those weapons.

And we have restrictive road laws as well MH. Funny how you're not complaining about that.

The simple fact of the matter is that Australia is becoming more and more of a nanny state, where individual rights are curtailed in an insulting and condescending attempt to 'protect' citizens, a society where wusses are in a perpetual state of fear. Witness the laws against teachers hugging children, the strict laws against gun replicas which can't even fire, the paranoia over child molestation, the condemnation of Steve Irwin and his 'stunt' with his baby daughter and the crocodile, I could go on and on.
And? Welcome to the real world MH. We don't live in a state of fear because we know that the average John Doe cannot walk into a gun store to purchase a weapon and then go home and shoot his family or walk into a populated area and start shooting everyone in sight. Strange, I know, for you to think it is an infringement of his right to do this, but hey, that's just the way the cookie crumbled.

I lived through the Port Arthur massacres and the Monash University shooting. I've also suffered from a government who is staunchly anti-firearm. That doesn't change the fact that I still support the right of Australians to 'bear arms', as the Americans would put it.
What right to "bear arms"? Australia is a different country to the US with a different constitution and no Bill of Rights. Please tell me, why do you assume you have a right to purchase a firearm in Australia? Where does such a right exist in this country? Where does it state or where is it implied in our constitution that Australians have a right to "bear arms"?

The Australian public, is for the majority, anti-firearm. Thus, they elect Governments that support their views. If you don't like it, you can always move to the US.

Again, if you don't like firearms, don't purchase them. Don't impinge on my right to do so.
What right? You don't have a "right" to have a firearm. You're not an American and you live in a country that does not have such rights implemented in its constitution. So please, what is this "right" of which you speak?

Such laws are discriminatory against those who live in the country, and women.
People who have farms can own firearms. Just not automatic or semi-automatic ones. Country vets also own firearms. So how does the gun laws discriminate against them? Tell me, does one need a semi-automatic to kill a sick animal? Or to hunt? Yes, you can still hunt with a gun in this country. It's just that now, the ability to obtain a hunting or sporting weapon has been made a bit more difficult with more stringent rules in regards to the purchase itself and for licensing purposes as well as transportation. So how exactly is that discriminating against those living in the country?

And women? LOL.. That's rich. How is it discriminatory against women to not be allowed to "bear arms"?
 
I happen to prescribe to the "less government = better government" notion, but even so, I really have a hard time rationalizing gun ownership. Proponents claim that citizens need defense against criminals carrying guns, but to that I counter: Where the fuck do you think the criminal got the gun? They walked into Wal-Mart, or maybe a gun store, and bought the effin thing!

If you take the guns out of our hands, then every time you bust a drug dealer who has a cache, it will actually make a difference. Once you narrow the means of acquisition to black market deals, it becomes harder for the criminal to get a gun in the first place. I often wonder if the Columbine or Virginia Tech shootings would have happened if those kids weren't able to buy their guns legally.

At least handguns, anyway. Hunting will never be illegal, so maybe we could limit the gun legality to big ol' rifles that can't be concealed easily.

Oh, also, one argument I say was to the effect of "Gun ownership is our last and best defense against a tyrannical government". Well, a couple of problems with that...first, the military. One unit of soldiers with their automatic weapons, night-vision goggles, intensive training, and helicopter and tank support would flatten an entire town full of gun-toting citizens in half a day. Second, if THIS administration isn't tyrannical enough for you, no other one will ever meet your requirements, so it's not like you're actually going to use them to revolt.
 
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER

In interpreting this text, we are guided by the
principle that “[t]he Constitution was written to be understood
by the voters; its words and phrases were used in
their normal and ordinary as distinguished from technical
meaning.” United States v. Sprague, 282 U. S. 716, 731
(1931); see also Gibbons v. Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 188 (1824).
Normal meaning may of course include an idiomatic
meaning, but it excludes secret or technical meanings that
would not have been known to ordinary citizens in the
founding generation.

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA v. HELLER

1. Operative Clause.
a. “Right of the People.” The first salient feature of
the operative clause is that it codifies a “right of the people.”
The unamended Constitution and the Bill of Rights
use the phrase “right of the people” two other times, in the
First Amendment’s Assembly-and-Petition Clause and in
the Fourth Amendment’s Search-and-Seizure Clause. The
Ninth Amendment uses very similar terminology (“The
enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall
not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by
the people”). All three of these instances unambiguously
refer to individual rights, not “collective” rights, or rights
that may be exercised only through participation in some
corporate body.5

Nonetheless, the point is that the passage quoted has zip to do with self defense, and the Heller majority did not say that you have a right (individual or otherwise) to oppose the federal government on grounds of tyranny.

I don't deny that the second amendment grants an individual right, but if the people in 1791 were evaluating it based on the plain reading of the passage from the Federalist Papers you quoted, then Joe Everyman would likely have thought it related to the right to own guns for use in the militias and in killing "tyrannical" federal employees. I am not sure that the latter was endorsed by the Heller majority. (The Court did endorse several other reasons for the amendment unstated in the text of the Constitution, but those other reasons are neither here nor there as they were unstated in the quote from the Federalist papers as well.)

As the Whiskey Rebellion showed, though, you have to win your fight to win the debate over what is "actionable tyranny". If you lose, you're just a "criminal" and dealt with as criminal. If you do win, though, then the "legality" of your insurrection becomes an irrelevancy, as what you say is the law, by force of arms. The right to secede from the Union wasn't foreclosed by the Constitution (as the Supreme Court decided in Texas v. White), it was and is foreclosed by the fact that the non-seceding states and/or the federal government will beat secessionists into submission, by force of arms. And if they lose that fight, then the secessionists have the de facto right to secede, the text of the Constitution be damned.
 
I'm sorry it doesn't mention 1 or 3. Your reading it as if the framers wrote it today. You need to look at with the context of it being written 200 years ago.

I am reading it as it was written and intended 200 years ago, and as the Supreme Court Rule yesterday, read the Federalist Papers, these are the debates of why and how the Constitution was constructed, and what the Founders were thinking when they made, and instituted, the Bill of Right, the First 10 Amendments of the Constitution.

Those first Ten Amendments are the Rights of the People, and, according to the Constitution and the thinkings of the Founding Fathers, those right already existed as the natural rights of free men, and that the Amendments to the Constitution were nit the only rights of the people.

The Founders also wrote into the Constitution, that, any right not specifically given to the Government, resided in the domain of the People, in another words, If the Power isn't given specifically granted to the Federal Government, by the Constitution, that power and right belong to the Individual...the People.
 
Nonetheless, the point is that the passage quoted has zip to do with self defense, and the Heller majority did not say that you have a right (individual or otherwise) to oppose the federal government on grounds of tyranny.

I don't deny that the second amendment grants an individual right, but if the people in 1791 were evaluating it based on the plain reading of the passage from the Federalist Papers you quoted, then Joe Everyman would likely have thought it related to the right to own guns for use in the militias and in killing "tyrannical" federal employees. I am not sure that the latter was endorsed by the Heller majority. (The Court did endorse several other reasons for the amendment unstated in the text of the Constitution, but those other reasons are neither here nor there as they were unstated in the quote from the Federalist papers as well.)

As the Whiskey Rebellion showed, though, you have to win your fight to win the debate over what is "actionable tyranny". If you lose, you're just a "criminal" and dealt with as criminal. If you do win, though, then the "legality" of your insurrection becomes an irrelevancy, as what you say is the law, by force of arms. The right to secede from the Union wasn't foreclosed by the Constitution (as the Supreme Court decided in Texas v. White), it was and is foreclosed by the fact that the non-seceding states and/or the federal government will beat secessionists into submission, by force of arms. And if they lose that fight, then the secessionists have the de facto right to secede, the text of the Constitution be damned.

From our review of founding-era sources, we conclude
that this natural meaning was also the meaning that
“bear arms” had in the 18th century. In numerous instances,
“bear arms” was unambiguously used to refer to
the carrying of weapons outside of an organized militia.
The most prominent examples are those most relevant to
the Second Amendment: Nine state constitutional provisions
written in the 18th century or the first two decades
of the 19th, which
enshrined a right of citizens to “bear
arms in defense of themselves and the state” or “bear arms
in defense of himself and the state.”
8 It is clear from those
formulations that “bear arms” did not refer only to carry-


Parker v. District of Columbia, 311 F. Supp. 2d 103, 109
(2004). The Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia
Circuit, construing his complaint as seeking the right to
render a firearm operable and carry it about his home in
that condition only when necessary for self-defense,2 reversed,
see Parker v. District of Columbia, 478 F. 3d 370,
401 (2007). It held that the Second Amendment protects
an individual right to possess firearms and that the city’s
total ban on handguns, as well as its requirement that
firearms in the home be kept nonfunctional even when
necessary for self-defense, violated that right. See id., at
395, 399–401. The Court of Appeals directed the District
Court to enter summary judgment for respondent.
We granted certiorari. 552 U. S. ___ (2007).

We turn to the phrases “keep arms” and “bear arms.”
Johnson defined “keep” as, most relevantly, “[t]o retain;
not to lose,” and “[t]o have in custody.” Johnson 1095.
Webster defined it as “[t]o hold; to retain in one’s power or
possession.” No party has apprised us of an idiomatic
meaning of “keep Arms.” Thus, the most natural reading
of “keep Arms” in the Second Amendment is to “have
weapons.”

At the time of the founding, as now, to “bear” meant to
“carry.” See Johnson 161; Webster; T. Sheridan, A Complete
Dictionary of the English Language (1796); 2 Oxford
English Dictionary 20 (2d ed. 1989) (hereinafter Oxford).
When used with “arms,” however, the term has a meaning
that refers to carrying for a particular purpose—
confrontation. In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S.
125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of
“carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, JUSTICE
GINSBURG wrote that “urely a most familiar meaning is,
as the Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicate:
‘wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing
or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and
ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict
with another person.’ ” Id., at 143 (dissenting opinion)
 
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