Supreme Court Upholds Gun Right

[snake river rufus]

Probably because Americans supply 50% of the world arms. And small arms are the cause of 90% of civilian casualties.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/SmallArms.asp

You have confused military small arms with civilian small arms. We aren't packing up our privetly held guns to ship abroad.

 

[phlogistician]

Really?

French Students' Slayings Shock London
By JILL LAWLESS,AP
Posted: 2008-07-08 22:19:02
Filed Under: Crime News, World News.

Wow, you found one story, in a population of 60million, and it relates to a stabbing, not a shooting.

Let's look at some facts, UK homicides totalled under 800 in 2005/6 stats. These were skewed by the London Tube terrorist attack, adding an additional 52 to the total. The years before, 2002/2003 were skewed by one man, Harold Shipman, and before that in 2000/2001, 58 Chinese Nationals who suffocated in a truck, whilst trying to sneak into the country. Single events skew our stats.

Now, let's compare, ... UK, 2005, 765 homicides in a population of 60,000,000, or 0.001275% got murdered. US, 16,692 homicides in a population of 300,000,000 = 0.005542%

So, guns, keeping you safe, or not? Would more guns lower your homicide rates? (55% of homicides were committed with handguns.)

Ironically, states with high crime rates, see guns get stolen from homes more often than states with low crime rates, and it adds up to over 100,000 stolen firearms per year. In the UK, it is mandatory to lock guns away in a secure cabinet, but lax US laws fuel crime.

What are you going to do to make the USA safer? Do you want to do anything?

 

[phlogistician]

Now you need to check your facts, there is no relaiable evedence that there is such a thing as a Gun Show Loop Hole.

Private individuals can sell firearms without background checks at gunshows. RFD's can pose as private individuals to facilitate sales. Stats show that sometimes up to 50% of the vendors at gun shows are not Registered Firearms Dealers. That makes for a lot of private sales, and a lot of guns going to people who have not had background checks. Sounds like a loophole to me.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Probably because Americans supply 50% of the world arms. And small arms are the cause of 90% of civilian casualties.

Sorry SAM but here are the numbers....

Forty percent of this staggering volume of weapons flows from Russia; 27% is shipped from the USA.[2] The USA, UK, and France earned more in small arms sales to developing countries in 1998-2001 than they gave in aid.[3]

40% comes from Russia, the U.S., U.K. and France contribute 27%.

Russian Military Spending
Since the mid-1980s, the Soviet Union devoted between 15 and 17 percent of its annual ... Almost all of Russia's arms production is for sales to foreign ...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mo-budget.htm

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopoli...ndustry#World.27s_Largest_Arms_Exporters"]50% of the world arms. And small arms are the cause of 90% of civilian casualties.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/SmallArms.asp[/QUOTE]


RUSSIA REMAINS one of the world’s largest small arms and light weapons (SALW)producers and certainly one of the most active countries on the world SALW market. It continues to offer a broad selection of SALW types and models. Increases in global military and internal security budgets and spending could signal an increase in SALW production and trade. At present, these products reportedly represent only a fraction of total Russian conventional arms production and export values. The actual volumes
and values of Russia’s SALW production, procurement and export are not publicly known.


http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/small_arms/?nid=5053

As recently as World War II, the ability to prosecute war depended on developing the industrial capacity to produce these "small arms." During the Cold War, the United States and the Soviet Union provided conventional weapons for their respective client states fighting "proxy" wars. The high-geared military-industrial economies of the two leviathans have stimulated France, China, Germany, the UK, Italy, Ukraine, and Israel to compete in the lucrative worldwide business of weapons export. In 2002 these nine weapons-selling countries exported $14.8 billion in conventional weapons to the rest of the world. Forty percent of this staggering volume of weapons flows from Russia; 27% is shipped from the USA.[2] The USA, UK, and France earned more in small arms sales to developing countries in 1998-2001 than they gave in aid.[3]

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Wow, you found one story, in a population of 60million, and it relates to a stabbing, not a shooting.

Man arrested over prostitutes' murders in Great Britain - Wikinews ...
Dec 18, 2006 ... Man arrested over prostitutes' murders in Great Britain. He has been arrested on the suspicion of murdering all the five women – Gemma Adams ...
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Man_arrested_over_prostitutes'_murders_in_Great_Britain

Tuesday, April 15, 2008
Arrests in Murder Case

Twelve people have been arrested in connection with the murder of Liverpool schoolboy Rhys Jones.
They were held by Merseyside Police in a series of dawn raids in the Croxteth area of the city.
Two youths, aged 16 and 17, and two men, aged 24 and 25, were being held on suspicion of murdering the 11-year-old schoolboy in August 2007.

And 800 more, the police still failed to protect 800 Great Britons, and does it matter if it was a knife or a gun?

Let's look at some facts, UK homicides totalled under 800 in 2005/6 stats. These were skewed by the London Tube terrorist attack, adding an additional 52 to the total. The years before, 2002/2003 were skewed by one man, Harold Shipman, and before that in 2000/2001, 58 Chinese Nationals who suffocated in a truck, whilst trying to sneak into the country. Single events skew our stats.

Now, let's compare, ... UK, 2005, 765 homicides in a population of 60,000,000, or 0.001275% got murdered. US, 16,692 homicides in a population of 300,000,000 = 0.005542%

Yes, and could that be because of?

More recently, a 2000 report from the Inspectorate of Constabulary charges Britain's 43 police departments with systemic under-classification of crime – for example, by recording burglary as "vandalism." The report lays much of the blame on the police's desire to avoid the extra paperwork associated with more serious crimes

Britain's justice officials have also kept crime totals down by being careful about what to count.

"American homicide rates are based on initial data, but British homicide rates are based on the final disposition." Suppose that three men kill a woman during an argument outside a bar. They are arrested for murder, but because of problems with identification (the main witness is dead), charges are eventually dropped. In American crime statistics, the event counts as a three-person homicide, but in British statistics it counts as nothing at all. "With such differences in reporting criteria, comparisons of U.S. homicide rates with British homicide rates is a sham," the report concludes.

So, guns, keeping you safe, or not? Would more guns lower your homicide rates? (55% of homicides were committed with handguns.

And that 55% includes those legally killed by Police, and Honest Citizens in self defence.

According to the FBI reports yes, 48 of fifty States now have CCW.

F.B.I. Reports 5 Percent Drop in Serious Crime - New York Times
Over all, crime declined in cities of all sizes, in suburbs and in rural areas. Cities with more than one million residents saw a drop of 6 percent. ...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C02E2DD173DF937A25751C1A96E958260

Ironically, states with high crime rates, see guns get stolen from homes more often than states with low crime rates, and it adds up to over 100,000 stolen firearms per year. In the UK, it is mandatory to lock guns away in a secure cabinet, but lax US laws fuel crime.

And exactly what are you trying to say?

States with CCW, have had major drops in crimes, of all categories, States with Very Restrictive Gun Laws are seeing crime rates go up.

That is demonstrable by the FBI yearly crime report.

What are you going to do to make the USA safer? Do you want to do anything?

Carry a gun, and lobby for more rights to self defence.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Private individuals can sell firearms without background checks at gunshows. RFD's can pose as private individuals to facilitate sales. Stats show that sometimes up to 50% of the vendors at gun shows are not Registered Firearms Dealers. That makes for a lot of private sales, and a lot of guns going to people who have not had background checks. Sounds like a loophole to me.

Have you ever been to a gun show?

I deal with them all the time, and I have never seen a case where a Illegal sale was ever made.

The only cases that I know of were stings by the BATF, trying to sell automatic weapons, or short barreled weapons, and guess what, the guy's that they tried to sell the Machine Guns, SBWs, to called the police.

The police didn't even show up, and when a detective at the show selling guns stopped them they showed their Badges, and had to admit that they were conduscting straw sales as stings

 

[phlogistician]

What you dont seem to grasp Buffalo, is that the USA has a homicide rate 4x that of the UK, and guns don't appear to be keeping you safer than us. You aren't using guns to defend yourself successfully, because if you were, I'd expect to see a lower homicide rate, but instead, it's 4x ours.

Listing a few homicides that happened in the UK achieves what, exactly? People murder people, and what is clear, is that if you give them easy access to guns, they do it more often. On the crime stats thing, murder charges aren't dropped so easily, and it's not going to account for a fraction of the difference between US and UK homicide rates, so don't kid yourself.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

What you dont seem to grasp Buffalo, is that the USA has a homicide rate 4x that of the UK, and guns don't appear to be keeping you safer than us. You aren't using guns to defend yourself successfully, because if you were, I'd expect to see a lower homicide rate, but instead, it's 4x ours.

The U.S. has a higher non-gun murder rate than many European country's total murder rates. On the other hand, Taiwan, the Philippines, and Mexico have non-gun murder rates in excess of our total murder rate.

South Africa. population , 41,465,000, Total Homicide Rate 75.30 per 100,000, Fire Arms Related 26.60 per 100.000, Non-Fire Arms 48.70 per 100,000, % Households With Guns N/A

Colombia, population, 43,000,000, Total Homicide Rate 36.53 per 100,000, Fire Arms Related 29.59 per 100.000 Non-Fire Arms 6.94 per 100,000, % Households With Guns N/A

N. Ireland population, 1,641,711, Total Homicide Rate 6.09 per 100,000, 5.24 Fire Arms Related, 0.85 Non-Fire Arms, 8.4, % Households With Guns N/A.

isn't N.Irland under British Control?

Mexico, population, 90,011,259, Total Homicide Rate 17.58 per 100,000, Fire Arms Related 9.88, Non-Fire Arms, 7.70, % Households With Guns N/A.

Listing a few homicides that happened in the UK achieves what, exactly? People murder people, and what is clear, is that if you give them easy access to guns, they do it more often. On the crime stats thing, murder charges aren't dropped so easily, and it's not going to account for a fraction of the difference between US and UK homicide rates, so don't kid yourself.

That with your gun laws, it is your attitude that as long as it is someone else who dies, you are ok with it, and your crime rates are steadily rising, criminals are still acquiring guns and weapons, and using them to commit crimes.

The fact is that:

More recently, a 2000 report from the Inspectorate of Constabulary charges Britain's 43 police departments with systemic under-classification of crime – for example, by recording burglary as "vandalism." The report lays much of the blame on the police's desire to avoid the extra paperwork associated with more serious crimes ”

“ Britain's justice officials have also kept crime totals down by being careful about what to count.

"American homicide rates are based on initial data, but British homicide rates are based on the final disposition." Suppose that three men kill a woman during an argument outside a bar. They are arrested for murder, but because of problems with identification (the main witness is dead), charges are eventually dropped. In American crime statistics, the event counts as a three-person homicide, but in British statistics it counts as nothing at all. "With such differences in reporting criteria, comparisons of U.S. homicide rates with British homicide rates is a sham," the report concludes

.

doesn't reflect your true crime rate, that the rate is artificially spun to support depressing the truth about the actual crime situation in Britain.

 

[phlogistician]

OK Buffalo, try and make some fair comparisons between developed nations, and compare the crime rates. Stop spinning that wheel that crime stats in the UK are misreported too, murders are counted, and that scenario you espoused unlikely.

So, guns aren't keeping you safe, and you have 4x the homicide rate of a comparable developed country. What is your solution to lowering the homicide rate, or are you happy living with it?

 

[John99]

Phlogistician, use your head. THINK.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/bell/index_1.html

 

[phlogistician]

Phlogistician, use your head. THINK.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/famous/bell/index_1.html

What has that link got to do with gun control? Do you think those victims should have been packing heat?

 

[Pandaemoni]

What has that link got to do with gun control? Do you think those victims should have been packing heat?

When guns in the hands of toddlers like Brian Howe are outlawed, only outlaw toddlers and adults will have guns.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

OK Buffalo, try and make some fair comparisons between developed nations, and compare the crime rates. Stop spinning that wheel that crime stats in the UK are misreported too, murders are counted, and that scenario you espoused unlikely.

So you are saying that Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary, is reporting a falsehood/LIE?

Now why would that senario be unlikely?

More recently, a 2000 report from the Inspectorate of Constabulary charges Britain's 43 police departments with systemic under-classification of crime – for example, by recording burglary as "vandalism." The report lays much of the blame on the police's desire to avoid the extra paperwork associated with more serious crimes ”

“ Britain's justice officials have also kept crime totals down by being careful about what to count.

So, guns aren't keeping you safe, and you have 4x the homicide rate of a comparable developed country. What is your solution to lowering the homicide rate, or are you happy living with it?

Sorry to have to disagree with you, but guns have kept me safe, on at least two occasions.

Every month I receive a publication with at least 20 to 40, incidents where individuals have defended themselves with firearms, and that is from over 2000 cases every month.

Now if you look, those developing countries have very restrictive gun law, and they still have higher murder rates than the U.S.

 

[Norsefire]

I must agree with Buffalo here.

 

[phlogistician]

Sorry to have to disagree with you, but guns have kept me safe, on at least two occasions.

Every month I receive a publication with at least 20 to 40, incidents where individuals have defended themselves with firearms, and that is from over 2000 cases every month.

If those stats are true, America has a higher crime rate than reported by some factor. The Kleck gun defense stats are ridiculously high, for instance. Odd that gun owners report more attempted crimes against them than non gun owners.

Now if you look, those developing countries have very restrictive gun law, and they still have higher murder rates than the U.S.

Make a fair comparison. Developed nation to developed nation. The US has a murder rate 4x that of the UK, and 55% of those murders are with handguns. I can't paint it any more simply for you.

Are you happy living with tha body count, or do you wish to lessen it?

 

[Norsefire]

Banning guns would do nothing. Criminals are criminals, guns are just tools. They'd find other tools. Or they'd somehow obtain firearms illegally.

What about people who enjoy hunting? Or are into weapons? Or simply want to own a gun? We can't go bending the law and breaking the Second Amendment simply because some idiot criminals abuse it.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

If those stats are true, America has a higher crime rate than reported by some factor. The Kleck gun defense stats are ridiculously high, for instance. Odd that gun owners report more attempted crimes against them than non gun owners.

Now to me those stories, says that to have a gun for self defence reduces crime by 2000 a month.

Make a fair comparison. Developed nation to developed nation. The US has a murder rate 4x that of the UK, and 55% of those murders are with handguns. I can't paint it any more simply for you.

For a far comparison Britain needs to fess up to it's real crime rate, not the spun rate to support the anti-gun line.

Are you happy living with tha body count, or do you wish to lessen it?

Well according to the reports in my source, we are reducing the body count, by up to 2000 a month, when they defend themselves, they don't become victims.

The major problem here is that 80% of our crime comes from repeat offenders, just as most of your crime involves repeat offenders, they keep re-offending until they kill someone, and then we still release them back into society, just as they do in Britain, so why are you so willing to not defend your family, and children, it may never happen to you, but what about your neighbor?

Even a knife in the hands of a criminal is going to give him a tremendous advantage over anyone with only bare hands, and how about a cricket bat? what can be done with that as a weapon?, or even a tire iron?, a straight razor?, a tow chain?, how about a pruning hook? all of them are lethal when applied to many areas of the body.

One other thing that is skewing our rates of murder, that Britain doesn't have if 12 to 18 million illegal alien, and they add on a average 12 murders a day to our crime statistics.

And our Liberal Friends don't seem to want to do a thing about them except let more in.

King reports 12 Americans are murdered daily by illegal aliens, [in addition] he says 13 are killed by drunk illegal alien drivers, for another annual death toll of 4,745.

So we already have a skew of the murder rates by 9,125 homicides, from illegal Aliens.

So yes it is very difficult to compaire crime rates between the U.S. and Britain, as for me I will keep my fire arm, and keep it close.

 

[shaman_]

In Australia, removing large numbers of guns from the community and tightening gun laws has resulted in a drop in firearm related deaths and mass shootings...

Most Australians don't feel that they need a gun to protect themselves.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

In Australia, removing large numbers of guns from the community and tightening gun laws has resulted in a drop in firearm related deaths and mass shootings...

Most Australians don't feel that they need a gun to protect themselves.

What are you going to do when another mass shooting happens again, and it will.

Now a interesting thing that I did was look at the U.S. homicide rate:

.8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people

the U.S. Is 14 times larger than Australia, and Australia murder rate is:

.27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people

Now let's multiply Australia's population by 14 times so it is the same as the U.S., now lets multiply the murder rate by that same 14 times as the increase in population would be accompanied by a increase in the murder rate, and guess what, Australia Murder Rate is 0.0411138 per thousand.

 

[shaman_]

What are you going to do when another mass shooting happens again, and it will.

In the decade before our buyback and change in gun laws there were 112 people shot dead in 11 mass shootings. Port Arthur being by far the worst. In the decade since there have been none. That's pretty significant.

Meanwhile they seem to happen every month in the US.

Now a interesting thing that I did was look at the U.S. homicide rate:

.8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people

the U.S. Is 14 times larger than Australia, and Australia murder rate is:

.27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people

Now let's multiply Australia's population by 14 times so it is the same as the U.S., now lets multiply the murder rate by that same 14 times as the increase in population would be accompanied by a increase in the murder rate, and guess what, Australia Murder Rate is 0.0411138 per thousand.

You can't multiply the rate per thousand by fourteen, that is ridiculous. The murder rate may increase but not by the factor of the population increase. Unless of course the number of police didn't change at all, buts lets assume it also increased proportionally.