Strike Two, or, Die, Die Again

[Tiassa]

If, At First, You Don't Succeed, Die, Die Again

"Fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again."

—President George W. Bush​

It happened again. Even more, it happened again to the same people.

Lightning may not strike twice, as such, but that is only comfort if, say, one is already dead. Kent Schaible, for instance. The young boy died at age two in 2009 after his parents, Herbert and Catherine Schaible, decided it best to forego medical treatment and attempt to pray away Kent's bacterial pneumonia.

A Pennsylvania jury convicted the couple in 2010, and a judge sentenced the Schaible parents to ten years' probation.

And, hey, with only seven children left, well, that's a dangerously depleted resource, isn't it? Which would be why Catherine and Herbert Schaible decided to have another child.

Brandon arrived last year.

Last week, at eight months old, young Brandon departed.

The Associated Press tries to explain:

A couple serving probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor could face new charges now that another son has died.

Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith healing. They lost their 8-month-old son, Brandon, last week after he suffered from diarrhea and breathing problems for at least a week, and stopped eating. Four years ago, another son died from bacterial pneumonia.​

While prosecutors await the autopsy before filing charges, well, yeah.

Seven surviving children, and placed in foster care. Assistant DA Joanne Pescatore said of Judge Benjamin Lerner, who spared the couple jail time on Monday, "He feels they are a danger to their children—not to the community, but to their own children."

And while that might seem self-evident to most people who are not members of the First Century Gospel Church, where they teach that, "It is a definite sin to trust in medical help and pills", it is always a challenge to properly represent defendants in these circumstances. Mythri Jayaraman, a public defender whose Google Plus page includes a three-word tagline—I am great—drew the unfortunate short straw.

Or, who knows, maybe Ms. Jayaraman actually believes the words coming out of her mouth:

Catherine Schaible's attorney, Mythri Jayaraman, cautioned against a rush to judgment, and said the couple are good parents deeply distraught over the loss of another child.

"There are way more questions than answers at this point. We haven't seen the autopsy report. We don't know the cause of death of this child," Jayaraman told The Associated Press. "What we do know is Mr. and Mrs. Schaible are distraught, they are grieving, they are tremendously sad about the loss of their most recent baby" ....

.... The Schaibles did take their children for medical checkups as required by their probation, according to Jayaraman, the defense attorney. Jayaraman said that Brandon was checked by a doctor when he was 10 days old, but she did not know whether the child had seen a doctor since.

"Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday. "Whether their religion had anything to do with the death of their baby, we don't know."​

After all, there are plenty who will suggest that these are not, in fact, loving, nurturing parents. There are plenty, indeed, who would suggest that perhaps the parents should stop fretting so deeply about their immortal souls, because after all, God knows what is in their hearts, and if they're leaving their children to die simply to impress Him, well, that seems somewhat a risky proposition.

Then again, some things really are that important. I mean, think about it. In 2009, they prayed their son to death. In 2010, they were convicted. In 2011, I don't know, maybe they went on vacation and spent some time in reflective prayer. In 2012, they had another child. In 2013, they prayed the new one to death. And, you know, if they really think that does impress God, maybe we should give them another go. You know. Practice makes perfect. Like coming up a little short on a quadruple salchow. Just try, try again. And, hey, who knows, the third time's a charm, right?

Meanwhile, the other seven children might be praying the Inverse Danny Glover Recitation, a.k.a., the Hail Mel: "Thank God I'm getting too old for this shit!"

Okay, that last was a little too much work on the setup, and an especially flaccid punch line.

But, really. What can one say?
____________________

Notes:

Associated Press. "Catherine, Herbert Schaible's Second Child Dies After Parents Use Prayer, No Medicine". The Huffington Post. April 23, 2013. HuffingtonPost.com. April 23, 2013. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/23/herbert-catherine-schaible_n_3138001.html

 

[Saturnine Pariah]

I was expecting them to be Christian Scientist. But hey they'll argue first amendment rights even if it means putting the lives of their own children on the line to sanctify their own religious doctrine that no doubt has led to more people dying of curable or treatable aliments. Yeah Freedom of Religion!
http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/harm15.html
Here are some rather outrageous cases of religion making a complete mess of events/scenarios.
11 Dec 2009. Tillmon Webb sat down in his recliner after a leg injury in March and never got up. He weighed 550 pounds then. When his wife finally called an ambulance last week, Tillmon weighed over 800 pounds. He died at the hospital. His wife, Ada, told reporters that her husband "totally believed in God and his healing." He also believed in doctors because he went to one in March but says he had to come up $300 before he could be treated. So he went home and put his fate Jesus' hands.

 

[Saturnine Pariah]

Then there's this crazy shit.
Religious Exemptions From Health Care For Children

A. Exemptions from preventive and diagnostic measures
■48 states have religious exemptions from immunizations. Mississippi and West Virginia are the only states that require all children to be immunized without exception for religious belief.
■The majority of states have religious exemptions from metabolic testing of newborns. Such tests detect disorders that will cause mental retardation and other handicaps unless they are treated.
■Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Idaho, Iowa, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Nevada, and Pennsylvania have religious exemptions from prophylactic eyedrops for newborns. The eyedrops prevent blindness of infants who have been infected
with venereal diseases carried by their mothers.
■Delaware, Illinois, Kansas, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Rhode Island have religious exemptions from testing children for lead-levels in their blood.
■California allows public school teachers to refuse testing for tuberculosis on religious grounds. Ohio has a religious exemption from testing and treatment for tuberculosis. It lets parents use “a recognized method of religious healing” instead of medical care for a child sick with tuberculosis.
■California, Colorado, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio and some other states offer religious exemptions from physical examinations of school children.
■Connecticut, New Jersey, Oregon, West Virginia, and some other states have religious exemptions from hearing tests for newborns.
■Oregon and Pennsylvania have religious exemptions from bicycle helmets.
■Oregon has a religious exemption from Vitamin K that is given to newborns to prevent spontaneous hemorrhage.
■California, Colorado, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, and Ohio have statutes excusing students with religious objections from studying about disease in school.
■Delaware, Wyoming, and other states have laws with religious exemptions for both children and adults from medical examination, testing, treatment, and vaccination during public health emergencies.

B. Exemptions from providing medical care for sick children
■Thirty-eight states and the District of Columbia have religious exemptions in their civil codes on child abuse or neglect, largely because of a federal government policy from 1974 to 1983 requiring states to pass such exemptions in order to get federal funding for child protection work. The states are Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin, and Wyoming. Additionally, Tennessee exempts caretakers who withhold medical care from being adjudicated as negligent if they rely instead on non-medical “remedial treatment” that is “legally recognized or legally permitted.”
■Seventeen states have religious defenses to felony crimes against children: Arkansas, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Minnesota, New Jersey, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, and Wisconsin
■Fifteen states have religious defenses to misdemeanors: Alabama, Alaska, California, Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, New Hampshire, New York, South Carolina, and South Dakota.
■Florida has a religious exemption only in the civil code, but the Florida Supreme Court nevertheless held that it caused confusion about criminal liability and required overturning a felony conviction of Christian Scientists for letting their daughter die of untreated diabetes. Hermanson v. State, 604 So.2d 775 (Fla. 1992)

States with a religious defense to the most serious crimes against children include:
■Idaho, Iowa, and Ohio with religious defenses to manslaughter
■West Virginia with religious defenses to murder of a child and child neglect resulting in death
■Arkansas with a religious defense to capital murder

The scope of the religious exemption laws varies widely. Some protect only a right to pray or a right to rely exclusively on prayer only when the illness is trivial. For example, Rhode Island’s religious defense to “cruelty to or neglect of a child” allows parents to rely on prayer, but adds that it does not “exempt a parent or guardian from having committed the offense of cruelty or neglect if the child is harmed.” Rhode Island General Laws §11-9-5(b) Delaware’s religious exemption in the civil code is only to termination of parental rights, rather than to abuse or neglect, and does not prevent courts from terminating parental rights of parents relying on faith healing when necessary to protect the child’s welfare. See Delaware Code Title 13 § 1103(5)(c).Many state laws contain ambiguities that have been interpreted variously by courts. Some church officials have advised members that the exemption laws confer the right to withhold medical care no matter how sick the child is and even that the laws were passed because legislators understood prayer to be as effective as medicine.

http://childrenshealthcare.org/?page_id=24

 

[Bowser]

Hospital visits can be expensive, it's no surprise some parents are praying for divine intervention. If not for insurance--which is also out of reach for many--I would be looking for alternatives for my own needs. One of our kids was in the hospital for a week, and if not for insurance, we would of had to sell our house to pay for it. Even with the insurance, it still cost us thousands of dollars. It makes me think that there might be more at play in these cases.

 

[Jeeves]

Lightning does, in fact, strike over and over in some places. Religious craziness does, too.

 

[Bowser]

What if the parents had opted for alternative medicine. Would the outrage be the same when it failed?

 

[Tiassa]

A "Diamond Joe" Moment

What if the parents had opted for alternative medicine. Would the outrage be the same when it failed?

Maybe. But there are so many things amiss with the Schaible story. That this is the second time they prayed their son to death, quite obviously, is the one that really astounds. It's almost like they invited young Brandon to the world in order to prove a point.

In the end, what we're actually looking at is mental illness, and once the bombshell echoes abate we will essentially have an opportunity to take that middle road; Herbert and Catherine Schaible are wrapped up in a neurotic delusion to the point that they are a danger to the children under their care. It is possible they have devolved to psychosis, but, you know, talk about a slowburn.

And, in the end, that sense of outrage you perceive is sired by an absurd contrast; we can try multiple choice, sort of:

(1) Herb and Catherine Schaible killed another child with prayer.

(a) Well, of course they did.
(b) Um ... duh!
(c) What, was this unexpected?
(d) Hmph. Imagine that.​

​

Point being, of course, that there really is no response to the information that is both honest and not scary. My own reaction upon reading the unbelievable news was a line from The Simpsons, I believe after they catapulted Rex Banner out of town, when Mayor Quimby muttered, "That was unexpected."

There is no, "Oh, that's too bad."

There is no, "What a shame."

There are no politics. This is just an ineffably stupid tragedy.

These weren't cancers, or foregoing amputation or transplant. This was bacterial pneumonia, the most common causes of which are easily treatable; and something akin to the flu, which is easily treatable. An IV bag of electrolytes is a sin?

Okay, but that makes no sense to most of us.

And, well, really, we probably should have seen this coming.

 

[spidergoat]

What if the parents had opted for alternative medicine. Would the outrage be the same when it failed?

For me? Yes.

 

[Jeeves]

What if the parents had opted for alternative medicine. Would the outrage be the same when it failed?

The outrage would be far greater, if it failed, especially in religious communities.
In a case as simple as pneumonia, there is a good chance that an alternative treatment could have saved the baby - every culture in the world has been dealing with this disease for millennia. Also, many alternative practitioners are conscientious enough to refer a case they can't handle to a regular clinic. From my perspective, asking help from somebody - anybody! - would have given the baby a better chance, so i'd blame the parents less.

 

[Bowser]

I remember as a very young child, when my family was very poor, we nearly lost my older brother to illness. My parents did everything within their means. He survived. I think as healthcare becomes less within reach for many, we will see more of the same. I can't say economics are a factor in this case, but it does seem to play a role for many.

 

[Jeeves]

For sure. But a kid dying because their parents sat with him all night in the waiting area of an overburdened, underfunded emergency room is never going to make the news. The only news we care about is who did what horrible or crazy thing that we can be mad at for fifteen seconds until we hit the Return button for The Voice.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

For sure. But a kid dying because their parents sat with him all night in the waiting area of an overburdened, underfunded emergency room is never going to make the news.

Yes it will. In fact that, or at least a more general case of it, is the loudest argument against the sequester. People who are dependent on government help for medical care are already not getting it. Many cancer patients have had the doors slammed in their faces.

But we're still paying soldiers to kill Muslims.

 

[quinnsong]

Yes it will. In fact that, or at least a more general case of it, is the loudest argument against the sequester. People who are dependent on government help for medical care are already not getting it. Many cancer patients have had the doors slammed in their faces.

But we're still paying soldiers to kill Muslims.

oint!

We do have our priorities! Excellent point!

 

[Nashton]

From my understanding, the general public is aware that faith healing is a common practice among certain sects of society. But when I consider public opinion, a majority of the population has no qualms about letting the practice happen. This case is an example of extremism, there are no questions of that, but it branches off a part of society that is certainly not taboo or heavily criticized. I say if we are to be outraged by this case, then we must also begin criticizing where prayer healing and reluctance to modern medicine is bred.

In my mind, I can easily equate prayer healing with such practices as witchcraft and voodoo. I wonder how many also have the same line of thinking and still condone faith healing as okay. As long as there's no harm, right?

 

[Tiassa]

Schaibles Must Answer the Charge

Update: Motions to Dismiss Refused

Attorney Bobby Hoof attempted to argue that the Murder 3 charge against Herbert Schaible in the faith-healing death of his eight month-old son should be dismissed for lack of malice in his client's decisions. As Maryclaire Dale reports for AP, Judge Benjamin Lerner wasn't having any of it:

A judge refused to dismiss murder charges Wednesday against a fundamentalist Christian in the faith-healing death of his son, saying things might be different if another one of his children's deaths hadn't landed him and his wife in court four years ago.

Their probation in that case required Herbert and Catherine Schaible to seek immediate medical help if another child was sick or injured. But the Schaibles instead sat and prayed over 8-month-old son Brandon before he died of pneumonia in April, according to their statements to police.

Defense lawyer Bobby Hoof argued that Brandon died just three days after he became ill, and said there was no evidence of malice, as required for a third-degree murder charge. The judge disagreed.

"They learned in the worst possible way ... exactly what these symptoms could lead to in a child, especially a young child, if not medically cared for," Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said, referring to the 2009 death of 2-year-old Kent Schaible. "We've been here before ... under strikingly similar circumstances."​

In a separate hearing, Judge Lerner refused the same motion on behalf of Catherine Schaible.

Meanwhile, in CYA news, Pastor Nelson Clark of the First Century Gospel Church blamed the child's death not on faith healing itself, but the Schaible parents' insufficient faith. Couldn't see that one coming, eh?
____________________

Notes:

Dale, Maryclaire. "Herbert and Catherine Schaible Will Be Charged With Murder For 'Faith-Healing' Death of 8-Month Old Son". Associated Press. August 7, 2013. HuffingtonPost.com. August 7, 2013. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/07/pa-faithhealing-dad-loses_n_3720487.html

 

[Buddha12]

God made humans who studied and became doctors to heal those others that God created. So if doctors are created by God why shouldn't humans let their children get help as well as themselves? I do not believe in God but this is what I would think that those who do should be willing to accept.

 

[wegs]

God made humans who studied and became doctors to heal those others that God created. So if doctors are created by God why shouldn't humans let their children get help as well as themselves? I do not believe in God but this is what I would think that those who do should be willing to accept.

Yes, agree.

I feel sick reading this. Not sure if there are different "sects" within fundamentalist Christianity? I know that Fundamentalists as a whole, are against "modernism." But, apparently this family takes that to mean that we are not to rely on man for help? Wth? I'm just dumbfounded.

This child's death could have easily been prevented. And what is equally as chilling, is they have other children who will go on to raise their kids someday, with this ridiculous mindset.

 

[spidergoat]

Is it bigoted to be against the religious freedom to not treat your child for a treatable disease?

God made humans who studied and became doctors to heal those others that God created. So if doctors are created by God why shouldn't humans let their children get help as well as themselves? I do not believe in God but this is what I would think that those who do should be willing to accept.

God also made humans who kill people that could have studied to be doctors, in his name. So... not sure what He was going for here.

 

[wegs]

''Religious freedom'' is not (or should not be) an alibi for abuse and neglect of children.

This couple needs to be in jail for life. Regardless of anyone's belief system, religion, etc...it shouldn't be permitted to usurp our justice system. And the last time I checked, neglect and abuse of children...is illegal.

Religious 'freedoms' shouldn't override our criminal justice system.

 

[Asguard]

Update: Motions to Dismiss Refused

Attorney Bobby Hoof attempted to argue that the Murder 3 charge against Herbert Schaible in the faith-healing death of his eight month-old son should be dismissed for lack of malice in his client's decisions. As Maryclaire Dale reports for AP, Judge Benjamin Lerner wasn't having any of it:

A judge refused to dismiss murder charges Wednesday against a fundamentalist Christian in the faith-healing death of his son, saying things might be different if another one of his children's deaths hadn't landed him and his wife in court four years ago.

Their probation in that case required Herbert and Catherine Schaible to seek immediate medical help if another child was sick or injured. But the Schaibles instead sat and prayed over 8-month-old son Brandon before he died of pneumonia in April, according to their statements to police.

Defense lawyer Bobby Hoof argued that Brandon died just three days after he became ill, and said there was no evidence of malice, as required for a third-degree murder charge. The judge disagreed.

"They learned in the worst possible way ... exactly what these symptoms could lead to in a child, especially a young child, if not medically cared for," Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said, referring to the 2009 death of 2-year-old Kent Schaible. "We've been here before ... under strikingly similar circumstances."​

In a separate hearing, Judge Lerner refused the same motion on behalf of Catherine Schaible.

Meanwhile, in CYA news, Pastor Nelson Clark of the First Century Gospel Church blamed the child's death not on faith healing itself, but the Schaible parents' insufficient faith. Couldn't see that one coming, eh?
____________________

Notes:

Dale, Maryclaire. "Herbert and Catherine Schaible Will Be Charged With Murder For 'Faith-Healing' Death of 8-Month Old Son". Associated Press. August 7, 2013. HuffingtonPost.com. August 7, 2013. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/07/pa-faithhealing-dad-loses_n_3720487.html

What's the point though? wont there previous bad conduct be kept out of a new trial so the jury will believe this is the first time they have done it and therefore refuse to convict?

Also on another site we were debating how JW's children should be treated when the parents refuse blood products. Here its straight forward, they don't have the right to refuse and so the Guardianship board will automatically authorise the treatment over the patients wishes but most of the people on the site were american and there response was "Well its there religion so you have to respect it, even if it leads to the child's death"