Story time (gather round the campfire!)

[Variable]

Righto, so there I was tonight at work with nothing to do, and this stout fellow comes in. He seems jolly from our business related banter, which is welcome given all the a$#holes I usually have to deal with. I finish his order, and he slips me this booklet thing (probably 2"x4", a couple dozen pages, illustrated). It's called "The Present." He left before I opened it, but I suspected what it was.

So I open it, glance at the poorly drawn artwork and generally drawl dialogue (sorry, my personal opinion, I'm rather picky ), and give it to one of my Pseudo-Christian co-workers to dispose of as she deemed fit. It's interesting to note that a good number of the pictures were shirtless chaps groveling on their knees, etc.

I'll get to where I'm going:

Why is it that Christianity feels the need to go around trying to convert people? Now, what exactly would happen had I been, say, a devoute traditional Wiccan (they wouldn't do this but hypothetically) and had handed him a sample Book of Shadows with the Rede slapped across the cover?

I'm not saying this guy is evil or anything. I'm sure he was cool (he seemed like it up till then). But why is it that Christians and other religions that openly "convert" feel the need to "do us a favor?" I'd like to blame it on ignorance, but honestly with the Internet and TV and all, I find it hard to believe that people nowadays would be so close-minded.

What really bakes my noodle is that the money spent to make that pamphlet (and probably countless others) could have been spent to feed the hungry, sent towards world peace (I can hope), etc. Instead it was wasted in a vain effort to convert me! (many have tried, none have succeeded).

Right, now I'm done venting. Discuss, just don't flame

~V~

 

[KalvinB]

The homeless need to learn to feed themselves. There is a large amount of unused forest land with plenty to eat. If I am ever homeless I'm going to explore. I don't get people that sit at a corner expecting people to feel sorry for them.

They're trying to convert you because they feel it's in your best interest. If you think you're fine without whatever religion then say so. There's no need to be rude about it.

Ben

 

[Xelios]

I partly agree with both of you. I have often felt theists that are trying to convert someone think they are doing them a favor. Kind of a "Oh, you better conver to so-and-soism! It will solve all your problems, and as an added bonus you get everlasting life too!".

My parents try that every week, I have to admit it becomes annoying after a while. But KB is right, just tell them you're happy with what you've got (even if it's atheism) but don't "diss" their religion. They are free to believe what they want.

Personally I don't agree with converting people. Just leave people to believe what they want to. If they want to become Christian they will seek the means to do so. This is not to say you can't have discussions about religions, or debates (like we're attempting at this forum) but don't go in with a "Convert to my religion or perish in hell" attitude.

My 2 cents.

 

[Tiassa]

It's easy enough to say no

And, if necessary, it's easy enough to say, F--k off. To that latter, I will note that there comes a point at which one is utterly overstepping themselves, no matter what they think.

However, as one who spent a couple years in retail, I wonder what the cowardly evangelists who go through stores hiding religious tracts for people to find think they're accomplishing. In addition to making someone's job harder, they are actually violating the law (most malls prohibit this sort of thing under soliciting and trespassing codes) and admitting that as much as they love Jesus, they're afraid to tell anyone.

And those dudes handing out half a Bible ... that's just a little strange.

Back ... probably about March, I related an interesting story about Jehovah's Witnesses who came to my door. Interestingly, it is the last civilized encounter I've had with proactive missionaries. And to this day I still assert that the reason for that civility is that the one who appeared to be "in charge" was born in Europe; he was, as I recall, a German Catholic by birth. Less than four seconds on transubstantiation and he realized that my civility was for exemplary benefit. Truth be told, I would rather have forcefully ejected them both to the front sidewalk, but then I wouldn't have learned that yes, some Christians do know when they're in over their head. And that's encouraging.

Variable

I think the reason people evangelize Christianity pertains to a bit in Matthew 25 I harp on, in which God separates the saved from the damned; if any of them leave the least of Christ's brethren without God's Word, they run the risk of condemnation.

Incidentally, I believe this would be the tract you're referring to: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0017/0017_01.asp

They're despicable. Chick Publications is part of an anti-Catholic, evangelical ministry dedicated to saving souls through misinformation.

Although two of my favorites are one in which "the LORD came upon her" with a picture of the Virgin Mary against a black background kneeling in a white splatter of energy. Absolutely priceless; if I find that tract, I'll post the image. (But, frankly, I don't look often.) The other is about the AIDS crisis; a doctor at an African relief operation confesses to his associate that he stabbed himself with a needle accidentally earlier in the day. Does that mean ...? Yes, I have three weeks to live. Christ himself must have been embarrassed about that one. Can you see the panic that might instill in some of these people? Thinking they'll die of AIDS within three weeks of having sex? Now there is a call to abstinence!

If someone's distributing Chick pubs in your town, be prepared to find a bunch of them; on store shelves, in between library books, crammed in the change slot of a public telephone ... everywhere. And I love how these people prefer to be anonymous. It's one thing to not be a hypocrite on the streetcorner shouting your prayers, but it's another to be a guerilla Christian; what, have the Christian soldiers honoring this God of Armies (Yaweh Sabaoth) been reduced to guerilla resistance?

If you get one under your windshield wiper, complain to facility security; if you're at a mall, they might actually seek to take legal action against the distributors. If enough people complain, Chick will eventually be called to answer for its encouragement of criminal behavior.

And yes, you'll meet people who believe in these tracts; I knew a kid at Catholic school who brought one to read as a daily devotional. After reading it to the class, I asked him why it was that everyone in those comics reacted so severely to the Bible. It was as if they had never heard of the Bible, and instantaneously believed every word in it without verification.

Seems to me this is what Chick is after.

thanx much,
Tiassa

 

[razz]

Story time eh?.....This one time...At band camp...I stuck a flute.....ermm Never mind

Cheers
RazZ
.. . . .

 

[G0D]

Originally posted by Variable
Why is it that Christianity feels the need to go around trying to convert people?

Your post mirrored some of my feelings on this issue. I must say that I have yet to meet anyone who wished to engage me in conversation about the "glories of allah", or someone who wanted to talk about "buddha's compassion", or "Moses", or "AhuraMazda" , etc.

The notable exception is the "Hare Krishnas", who are essentially patterned after christians, only, the names have been changed to decieve the innocent. Let me assure you that an actual hindu would be ROTFL if he came across a Hare Krishna. Much in the same way a Mexican would be amused to discover Taco Bell's "mexican food".

But the issue at hand - Why this desire to convert? Often, as tiassa pointed out, by any means, no matter how devious.

I disagree that they evangelical sort derive their motivation from the bible verse tiassa mentioned. A large percentage of the evangelical sort that I have met, have a fairly poor idea about the contents of the bible. I remember one who thought that "son of man" refered to Satan, because she was thoroughly convinced that Jebus was the "son of god", and would not refer to himself by any other term.

My view is that christianity suffers from a fundamental insecurity.

The insecurity stems from the fact that there is significant doubt that Jesus is the alleged messiah. And this doubt is strongest among people who would be the best judges of the situation - the people residing in the lands where Jesus actually lived.

This insecurity, IMO, manifested itself in history as a hatred/persecution of jewish people. The underlying motivation being to try wipe out any dissent about the validity of the alleged messiah.

That insecurity, shows up in the present day, when people try their best to convert you to their way of thinking. A person who is secure in his/her beliefs, would not feel the need for such a course of action.

It is the insecure who feel the need for generating approval/agreement by neutrals. By increasing the number of people who agree, they hope to persuade themselves of the truth of their position.

 

[Paraprakrti]

The notable exception is the "Hare Krishnas", who are essentially patterned after christians, only, the names have been changed to decieve the innocent. Let me assure you that an actual hindu would be ROTFL if he came across a Hare Krishna. Much in the same way a Mexican would be amused to discover Taco Bell's "mexican food".

Incorrect. The Hare Krishna movement is simply the spreading of Vaisnavism of the Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Sampradaya, which predates Christianity. No names have been changed. Also, they are not concerned so much with "Hindus," especially given that the term "hindu" is not found in the Vedic literatures.

 

[Adstar]

Righto, so there I was tonight at work with nothing to do, and this stout fellow comes in. He seems jolly from our business related banter, which is welcome given all the a$#holes I usually have to deal with. I finish his order, and he slips me this booklet thing (probably 2"x4", a couple dozen pages, illustrated). It's called "The Present." He left before I opened it, but I suspected what it was.

So I open it, glance at the poorly drawn artwork and generally drawl dialogue (sorry, my personal opinion, I'm rather picky ), and give it to one of my Pseudo-Christian co-workers to dispose of as she deemed fit. It's interesting to note that a good number of the pictures were shirtless chaps groveling on their knees, etc.

I'll get to where I'm going:

Why is it that Christianity feels the need to go around trying to convert people?

Because that’s What Jesus the Leader of Christians told them to do. And Christians who believe Jesus, believe that the only way to be saved is by accepting Jesus as ones Redeemer.

Pretty simple don't you think?

Now, what exactly would happen had I been, say, a devoute traditional Wiccan (they wouldn't do this but hypothetically) and had handed him a sample Book of Shadows with the Rede slapped across the cover?

Well i cannot speak for him, but if you had given a book like that to me i would hand it back and say no thanks. You could have handed back the book and said no thanks too. Or you could have asked him what the book was about to confirm your suspisions and then handed it back to him with a no thanks. Very simple again.

I'm not saying this guy is evil or anything. I'm sure he was cool (he seemed like it up till then). But why is it that Christians and other religions that openly "convert" feel the need to "do us a favor?"

Because they are humans and you are a human like them so maybe it is a bit of brotherly compassion towards a fellow human being. Wanting others saved is a good thing don't you think? Irrespective of your beliefs on the matter it is still nice that someone wants you to have the opportunity to be saved.

I'd like to blame it on ignorance, but honestly with the Internet and TV and all, I find it hard to believe that people nowadays would be so close-minded.

What is closed minded? Wanting to give other the opportunity to be saved is closed minded?

What really bakes my noodle is that the money spent to make that pamphlet (and probably countless others) could have been spent to feed the hungry,

Thats a option. But the greatest gift someone can have is salvation. So giving people the message of Jesus is more important that food.

sent towards world peace (I can hope), etc.

Not going to happen, no matter how much money is thrown at it.

Instead it was wasted in a vain effort to convert me! (many have tried, none have succeeded).

Right, now I'm done venting. Discuss, just don't flame

~V~

So the guy could read your mind and knew you where an anti-christ before he gave you the book? Hummm sorry but people cannot read your mind and getting angry because someone cannot read your mind is really pathetic.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Leo Volont]

Why is it that Christianity feels the need to go around trying to convert people?

~V~

The Reason for Conversion varies.

With the Original Doctrines from Paul, the intent was to maximize the membership of his Congregations, dues, tithes... it was about maximizing income and return on his investments.

When Catholicism became responsible for a Civilization, then it was necessary to maintain Cultural Homogenity (uniformity of Religion if not with Language -- and it was a Huge Mistake that Catholicism did not invest in Universal Education and make Latin or French the Unifying Language of Christendom). You see the problem with different ethnic and religious enclaves is that they provide Invasion Corridors for fringe Barbarians and competing Empires. For instance, the Shias of Iraq gave over the roads for American Invasion. Oh, the Kurds in the North also betrayed Iraq. People of different Religions tend to be Traitors. Societies without decenting Religious Communities are simply more secure. It is why China is nervous about Unregulated Religious Communities, especially after they make it a point of declaring the State their inveterate Enemy.

But, nowadays, there is no Christian Civilization. Now, the efforts for conversion go back to Paul's original doctrines, and whether the actual 'witnesses' know it or not, it is just membership drive bullshit for making more money. The Old Tent Revival People in rural America know this much... when I was young I got a job on the road putting up a Tent Meeting Tent... the Old Preacher would have a few drinks afterward and I remembered him telling me "Preach Jesus for show, but preach Paul for doe" that is, for money... he had discerned that all of Paulist Doctrine was basically about turning Religion into Big Business.

There are more sinister renderings, though. Anne Catherine Emmerich, Catholicisms foremost Seer and Visionary, had once said that Protestantism is NOT of God or Christ, but is entirely of Satan, and that there is no Spiritual Consolation in Protestantism -- no Grace, no Salvation. But that Satan gives each Protestant a warm fuzzy feeling for bringing a New Member into the Belief that they Can Sin for Free. Afterall, if Catholicism had the basic doctrines of Salvation, they felt guilty enough about it to introduce mitigating institutions such as Confession and Atonement -- Sin was not allowed or encouraged. But Protestant Salvation is UNCONDITIONAL... and so we saw the advant with Protestantism of the Rise in the Slave Trade, Rum Running, the abolition of restrictions on Usury (and the rise of unrestricted Capitalism and Wage Slavery). Anyway, according to some very insightful Seers and Visionaries, Satin give Protestants a warm fuzzy feeling whenever they convert a new Member to the Belief that they are Forgiven for any possible Sin and Abomination.

It is really incredible that Protestants don't see themselves as OBVIOUSLY the Anti-Christs. They Preach Free Sin and that Sinners will take over Heaven, and yet they are clueless that Satan is their Master.

 

[spidergoat]

Let me guess, Chick tracts?
http://www.chick.com/default.asp

 

[Lori_7]

Righto, so there I was tonight at work with nothing to do, and this stout fellow comes in. He seems jolly from our business related banter, which is welcome given all the a$#holes I usually have to deal with. I finish his order, and he slips me this booklet thing (probably 2"x4", a couple dozen pages, illustrated). It's called "The Present." He left before I opened it, but I suspected what it was.

So I open it, glance at the poorly drawn artwork and generally drawl dialogue (sorry, my personal opinion, I'm rather picky ), and give it to one of my Pseudo-Christian co-workers to dispose of as she deemed fit. It's interesting to note that a good number of the pictures were shirtless chaps groveling on their knees, etc.

I'll get to where I'm going:

Why is it that Christianity feels the need to go around trying to convert people? Now, what exactly would happen had I been, say, a devoute traditional Wiccan (they wouldn't do this but hypothetically) and had handed him a sample Book of Shadows with the Rede slapped across the cover?

I'm not saying this guy is evil or anything. I'm sure he was cool (he seemed like it up till then). But why is it that Christians and other religions that openly "convert" feel the need to "do us a favor?" I'd like to blame it on ignorance, but honestly with the Internet and TV and all, I find it hard to believe that people nowadays would be so close-minded.

What really bakes my noodle is that the money spent to make that pamphlet (and probably countless others) could have been spent to feed the hungry, sent towards world peace (I can hope), etc. Instead it was wasted in a vain effort to convert me! (many have tried, none have succeeded).

Right, now I'm done venting. Discuss, just don't flame

~V~

my opinion...and i am a christian, in that i believe that jesus christ is the son of god and the messiah, and that the bible is the holy word of god...is that a person who does this is not actually practicing christianity. this practice was not taught in the bible or by jesus. what this man is trying to do is to spread the gospel, but he's not doing it by the correct means. what he is supposed to do is to witness, and to testify. he is to witness by being christ-like in his daily life and towards others. how many times, i wonder, did jesus go around passing out pamphlets about himself and god? jesus doesn't come uninvited, so i think an uninvited solicitation about him misrepresents christianity. and i also can't help but think the inclination of our egos to be right has something to do with it too. after all, organized religion is a political agenda for people.

 

[nietzschefan]

All religions are power plays. You cannot gain more power without spreading, growing.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Why is it that Christianity feels the need to go around trying to convert people?

They need to bring in more people to make more money so their "concept" will continue onwards!

 

[Lori_7]

i have more to add...

i have a personal relationship with god through christ. some people call this being "born again". a new pair of eyes so to speak. i recognize his voice. he is my shepard and i'm one of his sheep. this relationship has had a profound impact on my life. it has changed me and my life for all the better, and i value it more than anything...even my own life. i know what it took for me to get to a place in which i sought this relationship and what i have been through to develop it over time. and because of this i think that handing out some pamphlet about jesus is condescending, intrusive, and very inappropriate. i think it diminishes and trivializes the experience to the point of blasphemy. i have spent many years as a waitress, and have seen many instances of so called christians, leaving these stupid pamphlets on the table after a meal for the waitress to throw away, and so i know all about the reaction this unwelcome gesture leaves with people, and it's always bad. i'm a born again jesus freak and I'M offended by it. i have never ever seen anyone react positively to this type of solicitation. it pisses people off 100% of the time. and i also know of some scripture that gives us a verdict regarding this matter, and it is about fruit. it goes something like, "if the fruit of the spirit is bad, the spirit is bad. if the fruit of the spirit is good, then the spirit is good." yes, it's rocket science isn't it? but it also serves to make obvious where people's intentions lie, when they are often times hidden.

*sigh* ok, i feel better now. thanks for listening. and be generous with your waitress...

 

[GeoffP]

They need to bring in more people to make more money so their "concept" will continue onwards!

That's how bioscience funding works too.