St.Paul vs Mussolini?

[Carcano]

After doing some reading on Fascist Corporatism and its blessing by the Catholic church I'm starting to think that St. Paul may have had a profound impact on the development of Mussolini's Italy.

This is the new testament reference in question from first Corinthians chapter 12:

"The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment.

But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues."

It is because of this paragraph that the church evolved toward favouring group rights over individual rights, arranged in a 'top down' heirarchy...and was thereby well deposed to Mussolini's ideal of corporatism triumphing over both Democracy and Marxism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_state#Fascist_corporatism

 

[Adstar]

The scripture you referred to talks of equality within the body of faith. That Jesus has given more honour to parts of the body that where once lesser.

This goes against fascism where the Single leader has all honour control and power.

The Leader of the Body of Christ is the Holy Spirit. All honour power and control is in His hands. No single man should attempt to usurp that leadership.

The concept of a single leader of the body being human is not a true Christian concept.

1 Timothy 5
17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

It is the Elders not Elder that rules it is a group not an individual.

James 5
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

1 Peter 5
5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “ God resists the proud,But gives grace to the humble.”



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Carcano]

The scripture you referred to talks of equality within the body of faith. That Jesus has given more honour to parts of the body that where once lesser.

This goes against fascism where the Single leader has all honour control and power.

But we know that the church does not uphold equality as an ideal. Just as the foot is not equal to the head, Paul states that God has appointed FIRST the apostles, SECOND the prophets, THIRD the teachers...etc.

The church has never been democratic in that its individual members do not elect its leaders...and so, its not surprising the Catholic church endorsed Mussolini's ideal of Corporatism where the parts serve the whole, rather than the State serving the individual.

Corporate means 'of the body' (Corpus) being composed of many parts...employers, unions, farmers, and government coming to a consensus under the leadership of a dictator.

 

[Adstar]

But we know that the church does not uphold equality as an ideal. Just as the foot is not equal to the head, Paul states that God has appointed FIRST the apostles, SECOND the prophets, THIRD the teachers...etc.

The church has never been democratic in that its individual members do not elect its leaders...and so, its not surprising the Catholic church endorsed Mussolini's ideal of Corporatism where the parts serve the whole, rather than the State serving the individual.

Corporate means 'of the body' (Corpus) being composed of many parts...employers, unions, farmers, and government coming to a consensus under the leadership of a dictator.

Well you talk about the "church".

I talk about the Body of Christ. No single Human leader.

And the equality that The Body of Christ does not hold up is equality between God and men.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Carcano]

Well you talk about the "church".

I talk about the Body of Christ. No single Human leader.

And the equality that The Body of Christ does not hold up is equality between God and men.

When Paul speaks of the 'body of Christ' do you think he means something other than the church?

Do you believe God does not intend for the church to have a heirarchy of leadership...with those appointed FIRST, SECOND, THIRD, etc.?

 

[Adstar]

When Paul speaks of the 'body of Christ' do you think he means something other than the church?

Do you believe God does not intend for the church to have a heirarchy of leadership...with those appointed FIRST, SECOND, THIRD, etc.?

Yes i do believe He means something independent of "The Church" There are many churches that are nothing but a facade.

The Body has always been independent of the churches. While some members of the body interact with churches they are not lead by any church hierarchy. When push comes to shove they get out of a church, it may affect their interaction with church goers but it never affects their relationship and connection with God through the Holy Spirit.

For the Body of Christ there is a FIRST, that is the Holy Spirit, after that there is no number two.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Carcano]

Yes i do believe He means something independent of "The Church" There are many churches that are nothing but a facade.

The Body has always been independent of the churches. While some members of the body interact with churches they are not lead by any church hierarchy.

Without any structure, who then decides who the 'body of christ' includes.

Does each individual just decided for himself...or does everybody simply find out when they die?

That of course would exclude all hindus, muslims, wiccans, buddhists, etc...and consign them to the flames.

 

[John99]

Carcano, you are aware that Mussolini was an Atheist?

 

[Adstar]

Without any structure, who then decides who the 'body of christ' includes.

Structure? You mean human structure? I do not need any organization to put an official stamp of approval upon me as one who believes Jesus. The Holy Spirit knows who He is with. I do not need to go through any human organization to access the Holy Spirit.

Does each individual just decided for himself...or does everybody simply find out when they die?

The Holy Spirit decides and thoes whom He is with are given wisdom to know they are saved. No need to wait to find out.

That of course would exclude all hindus, muslims, wiccans, buddhists, etc...and consign them to the flames.

Yes it would exclude all hindus, muslims, wiccans, buddhists. but it would not necessarily consign them to the Lake of Fire.

I believe it takes the personal rejection of the saving Gospel of the Messiah Jesus to assure someone consignment to the Lake of Fire. Those who reject the Love of the Truth are doomed.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Carcano]

Carcano, you are aware that Mussolini was an Atheist?

I think he wanted to turn fascism into a religion but the public were never entirely onside...so he made some concessions to the church.

He was the one who created the Vatican as an independent state.

 

[Carcano]

Yes it would exclude all hindus, muslims, wiccans, buddhists. but it would not necessarily consign them to the Lake of Fire.

Is there some third alternative aside from heaven and hell?

 

[Carcano]

The Holy Spirit decides and thoes whom He is with are given wisdom to know they are saved.

Well theres no need to have a church at all then...would you prefer a churchless religion?

 

[John99]

I think he wanted to turn fascism into a religion but the public were never entirely onside...so he made some concessions to the church.

He was the one who created the Vatican as an independent state.

I just read a little about him but it is widely known and accepted that both he and his father were Atheists. Unless you can show otherwise, but maybe you are not saying he was not an Atheist. I dont mean this in a negative way, just that an Atheist would not model his political vision to Religion. Perhaps i am missing something here. As an aside Mussolini was never known to be anti-semitic either or at least i have never read anything regarding that...which would have been known. Clearly he made an error in judgment by siding with Hitler. But otoh, hindsight is 20-20

 

[Carcano]

I dont mean this in a negative way, just that an Atheist would not model his political vision to Religion.

The question is not whether he modeled his corporatism on the ideals of the church...but whether the church tolerated him because of that corporatism.

At the time, this was a church terrified of the rising tides of Marxism and Democracy. Mussolini provided an alternative to both.

 

[John99]

...but whether the church tolerated him because of that corporatism.

I seriously doubt that was a factor to Mussolini but he did need to get the people behind him. Even though he was executed in a brutal way but that was a secular execution. I really should read some more about this\him so if i am in error feel free to point it out.

 

[Adstar]

Originally Posted by Adstar
Yes it would exclude all hindus, muslims, wiccans, buddhists. but it would not necessarily consign them to the Lake of Fire.

Is there some third alternative aside from heaven and hell?

Many of these hindus, muslims, wiccans, buddhists have never been given the Gospel message of Jesus and therefore it cannot be said that they have Rejected the Love of the Truth. It may be that in death they may have the message of Jesus given to them and have an opportunity to accept the Love of the truth. I say maybe because i do not know if they will. I have posted scripture on this before. I am surprised you have not read it.

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

So hear we see that Jesus went and preached to the spirits ( i believe dead people) in prison (hell) who where formerly disbediant in the days of Noah.


So it is not the failure to accept Jesus that leads one to eternity in the lake of fire. But the active rejection of Jesus that leads one to the lake of fire.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Well theres no need to have a church at all then...would you prefer a churchless religion?

A church have come to be defined as an organization with a single leader and also a Building that’s function is only for religious ceremony or entertainment as in some churches these days.

Now the body of Jesus can meet anywhere so coming together is a good thing. But we do not come together for righting bells and wearing fancy garb and carrying our elaborate ceremonies.

So for me there would be a place that members of the body would meet it could be a park one day or a members home the next day. People who would go there would not be there to watch a ceremonial show but would go there to share scriptures and insights given them from the Holy Spirit where all could be blessed by growing knowledge of the Way of salvation. The only thing that would be anything like a ceremony would be when they would break bread and share it in remembrance of the Messiah Jesus. Once again there would be no need for public prayers in this sharing of bread just a quite remembrance by all. Also the gathering would be a place to organise good works of charity for the wider community. But again there would be no need for a Leader, but only a collection of elders who would come to a consensus on the matter.

So to me i have described something that is definitely not a church as it is commonly known to be in the world today.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

The question is not whether he modeled his corporatism on the ideals of the church...but whether the church tolerated him because of that corporatism.

At the time, this was a church terrified of the rising tides of Marxism and Democracy. Mussolini provided an alternative to both.

They where most terrified by aggressive, atheist, communism. And anyone that was the enemy of that was for them an ally of convenience.

For them the enemy of their enemy was their friend. Even if that "friend" was only a slightly lesser enemy. Once a Harlot always a Harlot playing harlots with the powers that be is in that churches nature.

Like the USA a supposed champion of democracy supporting the Shah of Iran an absolute monarchy or general Augusto Pinoshet a military dictator of chile or even the Khmer Rouge of cambodia a communist government but the enemy of the vietnamese communist there greater enemy. There are a lot of harlots in the world.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Carcano]

Many of these hindus, muslims, wiccans, buddhists have never been given the Gospel message of Jesus and therefore it cannot be said that they have Rejected the Love of the Truth. It may be that in death they may have the message of Jesus given to them and have an opportunity to accept the Love of the truth. I say maybe because i do not know if they will.

Have you ever wondered why God did not present the ONE TRUTH to all human cultures...instead of just those in the west?

That would have prevented billions of Asians, Africans, Pre-Columbian Americans etc. from having to spend time in the lake of fire...while waiting for Jesus to descend into their midst and present his case.

 

[Carcano]

So to me i have described something that is definitely not a church as it is commonly known to be in the world today.

Let me put it more briefly...do you believe the Christian faith would be stronger without having organized churches?