Spanking Lowers IQ Points

[cluelusshusbund]

Spanking in our house was only used when I want way past the boundary laid out by my parents. I knew I was taking a risk of a spanking when I did it because I knew it was really wrong.

Do you thank if you'r dad had spanked you harder at previous times... that you mite not have snuck off from home like you did... cause you woud have had a grater fear of the punishment.???

 

[Randwolf]

An them suggestin spankin as a "bak-up" is all the escuse a lazy ignerent parent needs to justify continuin to abuse ther children by hittin 'em :shrug:

Well, "Eight of the 9 best studies support spanking as a back-up, and the 9th (Straus et al., 1997) has no evidence against it. "

Not impressive? You seem to be relying on it.

Failing that, you are relying on anecdotal tales from your childhood - which seem to be overwhelmed by other people's anecdotal tales from their childhood. What exactly would impress you?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

If you take the time to review my previous posts, you will see that my only advocacy of corporal punishment involved clear and present danger to the child...

So in the esample that Jpappl gave... whare he had snuck away from home an his dad was out huntin for him... an when his dad got home he fount his son safe an sound but Whipped him anyway... do you thank he whipped the boy dew to a clear an present danger... or because he had been scared sht-less an released his anger at his son by Whippin him.???

 

[Ellie]

Well, "Eight of the 9 best studies support spanking as a back-up, and the 9th (Straus et al., 1997) has no evidence against it. "

Not impressive? You seem to be relying on it.

Failing that, you are relying on anecdotal tales from your childhood - which seem to be overwhelmed by other people's anecdotal tales from their childhood. What exactly would impress you?

Well said and a well thought out post. Of course when interviewing a prisoner, such as Ted Bundy etc. one of their first claims will be 'mommy spanked me'. That is the extent of this so called research.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Origonaly posted by cluelusshusbund to Randwolf
If spankin is so grate... why have the gole of phasin it out as they suggest :xctd:

For which ever reasons... ignerence/lazyness/other... mos parents wont even put in the time an effort necesary to make "time-outs" work... much less raize ther kids like my parents did whare time-outs wasnt even needed.!!!

An them suggestin spankin as a "bak-up" is all the escuse a lazy ignerent parent needs to justify continuin to abuse ther children by hittin 'em :shrug:

They suggest phasin out "Whippin kids" because its not somptin a educated an lovin parent wants to do... but unlike eliminatin wars an crimes... ect... not hittin you'r kid is immediately acheivable.!!!

The good news is... no "magic-pill" or "magic-word" is needed... jus a williness to learn new child rearin techneeks... an it may never include you... but it seems mor an mor people are learnin that whippin ant necesary.!!!

...would like to know the motivation behind your spelling...

I have never spelled good... i thank som sort of brane prollem is involved... but 11 years ago when i firs started postin in firewalled webtv groops corect spellin wasnt a issue... i taut myself how to type an i spell like i talk an im comfortable wit my postin style an the way im used to spellin words... i can use spell check along wit a dictonary an make a real good lookin post but if i had to do that all the time it woud take forever an take the fun out of postin... when i use spell check i have to use the dictonary to see which spellin is corect... an even wit a short word that i dont alredy know how to spell corectly i have to ccp the word cause if i dont... mor than likely i will get the letters mixed up if i try to type it from menory... it takes long enuff alredy to type wit jus usin 3 fangers an my thums... however... when i cant seem to spell a word close enuff to understan what it is... i will use a dictonary an ccp so what im sayin can be understood... an i understan that som people wont read my posts dew to my style an i except that.!!!

"Look, clueluss, I know you are much more intelligent than you like to let on."

Im un-educated an posibly a genious or uneducated wit mayb a average iq... but which ever... ive been me all my life... i like who i am an dont apologize for it.!!!

Simple truths, to the best of my knowledge. Backed by citations. Do you find these quotes to be a personal attack against your beliefs simply because they differ?

"Eight of the 9 best studies support spanking as a back-up, and the 9th (Straus et al., 1997) has no evidence against it. "

Not impressive? You seem to be relying on it.

Failing that, you are relying on anecdotal tales from your childhood - which seem to be overwhelmed by other people's anecdotal tales from their childhood. What exactly would impress you?

Overwhelmed by other peoples anecdotal tales... i dont thank so... an ether side can post studies that bak ther positon... an then both sides pont out prollems wit each others studies... been thar done that.... i thank each side givin ther own specific esamples an discussin 'em is mor productive to comin closer to a meetin of the minds.!!!

For esample... you alluded to a couple of esamples you had givin earlier... please post those an lets discuss 'em... 1 was somptin about you'r dauter runnin into the street... an the other was about her touchin a red-hot stove burner an tryin to touch a iron (the kind you iron clothes wit).!!!

 

[mugaliens]

You mean the spankings?

Yes.

If so, just think ....those spankings might be the very reason that you're both successful. A good swap to the butt at the appropriate time can teach valuable lessons.

Yes, it can, but the main "valuable lesson" it teaches is "pay attention, I mean business!"

Thus, by themselves, spankings did little else than redirect my attention to my father. It's what he said afterwards, which I would not have heeded without that spanking, that became the valuable lesson.

When I hear people talking about spankings being "abuse", I keep wondering how the world ever survived and created all that we have now since in those days, spankings and even major whippings were a norm. If we listen to the liberals on this issue, those kids could never have built this great nation.

Baron Max

Indeed - a lot more people are doing real work these days. That can't last...

 

[jpappl]

Do you thank if you'r dad had spanked you harder at previous times... that you mite not have snuck off from home like you did... cause you woud have had a grater fear of the punishment.???

Maybe. If I thought my dad would cut my right arm off I wouldn't have done it. Risk vs punishment. It's also why people don't steal bread in some places.

But that would eliminate any decision making from me. My parents wanted me to be able to make choices and learn from mistakes. Kids will make mistakes, sometimes they make big ones. The only way to avoid that completely is to lock them up in a closet.

 

[GeoffP]

My dad spanked me once.

I forgot the Dewey decimal system.

 

[Psyche]

I totally agree. There are parents that abuse spanking, that are not qualified to dispense such. I do not know if I am one of those, only time will tell. Both my kids are grown, both are functional members of society. What about yours?

Do you not think that one should have a clear understanding of right and wrong, as well as their philosophy of child-rearing BEFORE they have kids? This is the crux of my argument, if the fact that you are a parent of fully functional members of society makes you more qualified to answer these questions than I, then in effect you are admitting that its not even possible to be qualified to have kids before…. having them.

This isn’t in itself a reproach, but I think it would be important to rigorously examine ones history prior to having children and spanking them. If parenting in itself were a category of moral authority and wisdom, than the very notion of “bad parenting” would be oxymoronic. This is obviously not the case.

Anyway, the rest of your post (where comprehensible) seemed to state that spanking is designed to instill obedience.

Absolutely agree.

However, let us not leave out a very important part. The "before" or "after". If the child does not understand why said punishment was dispensed, then they are hardly likely to learn from it. If you take the time to review my previous posts, you will see that my only advocacy of corporal punishment involved clear and present danger to the child involved. Better a "swat" today, than a "smush" tomorrow.

One of the reasons I emphasize rigorous self-knowledge is that so much of what we do is unconsciously motivated, and children are sponges for absorbing and adopting the unconscious needs and proclivities of their parents. This is why emotionally unavailable but otherwise easy-going Dad’s can be as or more detrimental to a child’s development than one who is actively abusive, because the child unconsciously picks up upon the fact that his strong emotional needs cannot be met by his parents, so he may end up repressing them, or acting them out in inappropriate ways (then get blamed for his "misbehavior", therby achieving the desired attention). What isn’t acknowledged and purged in the individual will always come back to haunt them, and most often this happens through children.

Some parents may have an unconscious need to be firm and authoritative, and whether it’s by projection or transference, they’ll end up having kids who need them in this way. When I go back in depth and examine much of the attitudes and punishments I and others around me received from parents and teachers, I find that none of them really had anything to do with the individual as a sentient being who may not be completely okay with 100 percent domestication, but they were just including the kids in some unconscious psychodrama, riddled with common assmptions and accepted methods which are flatly wrong, though they may have worked, which they oten didn't. The problem with a kid is never their behavior, it is much deeper stuff that can even actively manifest to the outer world as being happy and well-adjusted.

This does not alleviate my (or any parent's) responsibility to explain (ad nauseum, if necessary) exactly WHY the child should sit up and take notice of the circumstances leading to that "swat". You raise a child without spanking them more than three times in their lives, have them turn out well-adjusted (as well-adjusted as anyone is these days), productive and happy - then come talk to me.

Pfffft.

Growing up I always found hortatory preaching to be itself an act of violence, because it effectively erased any illusions I may have had that my perceptions were valid. Oh, I could be very wrong about certain things, but it didn’t make sense to me that such impulses or ideas could be buried under an avalanche of preaching. What I tried to impart in my last post (the incomprehensible stuff) is that most people have no clue what it is their doing, and merely go along with sociological and ideological conventions, foisting them on their children, and then justifying them ex-post-facto. All of the most important and lasting lessons are the unintended ones, imparted by the behavior and attitude of the adult towards themsleves and the world.

One of the reasons reasoning with a child fails is because adults actively discourage reasoning with punishment, convinient lies, emotional manipulations and never, ever, EVER, admitting to being wrong about anything of more than trivial significance. I guess I’m getting into a more general critique of parenting than anything specifically to do with spanking at this point, but I am deeply interested in the existential emptiness of the adult world. I see it everywhere, a void that people try to suture up with religion, political zealotry, drug use, television addiction, and especially abject normalcy. Some people like modern society, but I look at it as a crime scene, and I trace the bloody footprints to parenting and public education.

A pattern is emerging here where anti-spanking people make an argument from principle (spanking is immoral), and the pro-spanking people respond with the argument from effect (but it works). Nobody is saying that it isn’t possible for spanked children to grow up healthy and happy and productive and all that (at least in the ways that are commonly used to measure such things) or that parents who spank can’t be spectacular and loving in all other aspects. This is primarily an ethical argument. Spanking is wrong. I personally take it further, conflating it with a larger pattern of modern parenting which has bad long term effects, even if those effects aren't visible.

I know that I won't even consider having children until I'm confident that I am as free of neuroses as is humanly possible. I can't ever change the world, I can't ever change anyone elses minds, but I can change myself.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Do you thank if you'r dad had spanked you harder at previous times... that you mite not have snuck off from home like you did... cause you woud have had a grater fear of the punishment

Maybe.

...But that would eliminate any decision making from me. My parents wanted me to be able to make choices and learn from mistakes.

Good pont... when "punishment" is the focus of attenton... the child is less focused on decison makin an learnin from ther mistakes... which is anuther argument agans punishments... especialy corporal punishments.!!!

My parents never punished me... for esample... when i was young... early 1 mornin i talked bak to mom when she ask me to do somptin... that afternoon when i stoped by my dads bidness after school... he was bouncin a rubber ball on the floor an bounced it over to me... we played for a few seconds an he tolt me... you hurt you'r moms feelins this mornin... an nuthin else was said about it an we continued to play wit the ball... on my way home i was thankin about me hurtin moms feelins an i figered it out how to make it rite what i had done to her... an then i felt grate an coudnt wate to get home an fix what i had done... so when i got home i went strate to the kitchen an ask mom if ther was anythang she needed at the grocery... that i woud go get it... an she looked around an said no... dont need nuthin rite now... but i knew we woud need sompitn soomer or later an then i coud put my plan into acton an go to the store wit-out givin any bak-talk.!!!

Im sure it was obvous to her what i was doin... "apologizin by my actions"... an she no dout tolt dad about it... lol.!!!

But thats perty much how dad handled such thangs... he didnt add unnecesary drama to a situaton... not even a lecture... much less hollerin at me or disrespectin me by hittin me... he guided me into reflectin on what i had done an left it up to me as to what i wanted to do about it.!!!

Even when i recked the family car... no lecture... no belittlin me... no groundin me or takin away my keys to the car... mater of fact... i drove the car the very nest day... lol.!!!

 

[jpappl]

Clueless,

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
Maybe.

...But that would eliminate any decision making from me. My parents wanted me to be able to make choices and learn from mistakes. ”

Good pont... when "punishment" is the focus of attenton... the child is less focused on decison makin an learnin from ther mistakes... which is anuther argument agans punishments... especialy corporal punishments.!!!

Against punishments. No, its not a good argument. Because the point is to have them learn to make wise decisions, and that decisions and choices can have consequences both good and bad.

Should we continue to give money to someone who spends it all ?
Should we let someone continue to drive after they keep driving drunk ?

In each case, there has to be some form of detriment and or punishment for poor decisions. Some of them are self imposed, some need to be imposed from another source such as a parent or a cop.

My parents never punished me... for esample... when i was young... early 1 mornin i talked bak to mom when she ask me to do somptin...

By your standards I would ask if they were such great parents why did you talk back in the first place. But I understand you are relaying a story so I won't do that to you.

You dad did pretty much what I would have done. If I was there I would have said something right away, if you continued you would be in a time out to think about it.

But if my wife called and told me what happened, I would do the same. It's called a guilt trip. He laid that on you good and it worked.

Even when i recked the family car... no lecture... no belittlin me... no groundin me or takin away my keys to the car... mater of fact... i drove the car the very nest day... lol.!!!

Did you wreck the car because you were doing something stupid or just a new driver ?

I don't want to sound mean here so I apologize if it comes across that way. But did you parents ever punish you for not doing homework ? I guess not if they never punished you.

Do you actually write like this when you say send a letter or write someone a personal note.

 

[Psyche]

Not to skip past all of the child abuse and so forth that we unfortunately hear about.
What you are saying in the above is that children don't understand and they may not understand all of the troubles that adults go through including at times raising and paying for them.
But the children do understand very well what it was they did to get in trouble. And again, I am not talking about abused children, that is a totally different scenario.
I for example, knew damn well what I did was wrong and when I did it and knew when I was crossing a line that mean't risking a spanking. I did it for reasons usually with some peer pressure or to challenge them to see if I could get away with it.

One of the great ironies of childhood is that children often get in lots of trouble for conforming to peer pressure in an identical way that is demanded of them to conform to parental pressure. Moreover, ones independent conscious life really cannot begin until the first act of shameless disobedience. It isn’t healthy for all of our actions to be completely controlled by another human being. By spanking, as I will argue here, you are ensuring that it is impossible for the child to ever escape their parents, because the shaming attitude of the parents is internalized by the kid, in order to prevent future attacks. This internalized attitude of external motivation/de-motivation for behavior lasts forever, as is demonstrated by your instinct to defend adults.

That is usually the difference between a parent and someone who has never had kids, they think all kids are perfect little joys on the earth. In fact they are little people, young adults and they make mistakes and they test and they challenge and they need boundaries.

I’d say the main problem is the lack of boundaries on the part of the parent who spanks. The very terminology concerning testing and challenging is needlessly pejorative. I’d be deeply unnerved if children didn’t test and challenge, that’s a part of figuring the world out, and one should never given the impression that it is forbidden (as through spanking and other harsh punishments). Given that there isn’t a single perfect person on the planet, anytime there is conflict between a parent and a child it is an opportunity for BOTH to learn something new, rather than for the parent to unilaterally judge and punish the child, because there is no such thing as an inherently ‘bad’ kid, they just need guidance, and examples of moral courage in order to learn and grow.

I know I am not alone in saying this is false.

I was never abused. I was at fault in those instances. I do very much respect my parents and my parents are exceptional human beings.

And if you notice, I have become an adult who takes responsibility for my actions and words. My parents taught me that.
When they are abused, correct. Spanking your kid for crossing the line after repeated attempts to correct the behavior in other ways is not abuse.

This comment gets to the very heart of my argument. If you notice, few people (if any) who were spanked ever say that it was wrong for them to be spanked. This crosses the spectrum from what you would call ‘justified’ spanking all the way along the curve of ‘abusive’ spanking. There is a very pernicious reason for this, and it is because of guilt.

Spanking is wrong because it corrupts the ability of people to ever conceive of themselves as having intrinsic value, and they spend their entire lives defending the actions of the parent, even spanking their own kids to prove the point. This isn’t because of genuine respect, but because of genuine dissociation from their earlier humiliation as children. Their worth can never again be conceived of as intrinsically motivated, because their parents, through physical intervention, had to drag them along out of the muck of their own instincts, out of their unique ability to grow with every gift that nature granted them at the beginning of life, into adulthood with the meathooks of fear and guilt. Every person is their own greatest teacher, but guilt robs them of that, because guilt is supremely unnatural to carry around for an entire lifetime. Little stabs of it here and there for posterity, but never a lifetime, over something that WASN'T THEIR FAULT.

No child is ever responsible for the violence of a parent.

.
Yes because you can't have deep reasonable compelling conversations with a 4 year old. They still think it's possible for Santa Claus to be real.

I would respond by pointing out that it’s the parents who are the clowns who teach their four year old about Santa to begin with. If you have the attitude that you have nothing compelling to learn from a four year old than it begs the question, why the hell have kids to begin with?

And yet I am here to admit honestly that I deserved the spankings I got. I am not going to ever blame them because they were truly my fault. My parents never hit me in anger and I know exactly the pain they went through when it came to having to spank me. I have spanked my two kids 6 and 10 year olds a total of 6 times in the lives thus far and I don't expect to ever have to do it again.

It’s because you don’t blame your parents, and instead blame yourself, that you cannot ever truly be free. Even if they happened to be right about the issues that lead to the spanking, they robbed you of ever being able to have true ownership over yourself. Instead of conceiving of yourself as having intrinsic self-worth, you’ve established a narrative where you were a bratty kid who needed to be harshly corrected by wise and benevolent parents. No child EVER deserves to be humiliated. It’s a universal principle, not a local preference.

I truly hurt me more than it did them. Just like it did my dad.

No it didn’t. You dominated your children in order to protect yourself from the pain of having been spanked yourself. It’s selfish and immoral. I must point out that I take this hard-line more for my sake than your own, because I believe seeing shades of grey in areas such as this turns the whole world opaque.

How bout we let the children pay all the bills and make the decisions on what we should have for dinner while your at it.

Do you resent children for being children? This comment is revealing because you refer to your wealth and status and authority as being your value, without seemingly any other context than to belittle them: Which is unnecessary, because as you might have noticed adults are the only ones who have a voice in this conversation.

It's a real stretch to say because we have spanked our kids a few times in their lives for going over the line. That all of the sudden after years of waking up and taking care of their helpless selves as babies and making sure they have food to eat and a warm bed to sleep in and on and on and on, that we are just abusers.

Again, guilting as a defence mechanism. Why put yourself in a position to ever be compared with abusers to begin with? The unintended connotation here is that chilren are useless, and that taking care of them is a tremendous burden, so the parents deserve some sort of occasional release. I've yet to see a principled response from anyone that spanking is good. Instead, it's either the ex-post-facto "I turned out fine" argumnet, or diversionary comments which justifies the parent by pointing out all the other stuff they do.

 

[jpappl]

Psyche,

By spanking, as I will argue here, you are ensuring that it is impossible for the child to ever escape their parents, because the shaming attitude of the parents is internalized by the kid, in order to prevent future attacks. This internalized attitude of external motivation/de-motivation for behavior lasts forever, as is demonstrated by your instinct to defend adults.

This is to me a lot of babble. It is basically defending all children from punishment no matter what they do, in fact everything they do is apparently the parents fault which is BS.

I am not defending adults, I am admitting to doing things that I shouldn't have, I am admitting to being responsible for my actions. That's all.

I’d say the main problem is the lack of boundaries on the part of the parent who spanks. The very terminology concerning testing and challenging is needlessly pejorative. I’d be deeply unnerved if children didn’t test and challenge, that’s a part of figuring the world out, and one should never given the impression that it is forbidden (as through spanking and other harsh punishments). Given that there isn’t a single perfect person on the planet, anytime there is conflict between a parent and a child it is an opportunity for BOTH to learn something new, rather than for the parent to unilaterally judge and punish the child, because there is no such thing as an inherently ‘bad’ kid, they just need guidance, and examples of moral courage in order to learn and grow.

Yep and part of that in fact a huge part of that and the essential job of the parent is to prepare them for adult life. A big part of which is learning to accept responsibility for their actions. Without that, they will struggle in life because they will always look to blame others.

There is a very pernicious reason for this, and it is because of guilt.

The alternatives to spanking are filled with guilt. Look through this thread at some of the suggested alternatives.

Spanking is wrong because it corrupts the ability of people to ever conceive of themselves as having intrinsic value, and they spend their entire lives defending the actions of the parent, even spanking their own kids to prove the point. This isn’t because of genuine respect, but because of genuine dissociation from their earlier humiliation as children. Their worth can never again be conceived of as intrinsically motivated, because their parents, through physical intervention, had to drag them along out of the muck of their own instincts, out of their unique ability to grow with every gift that nature granted them at the beginning of life, into adulthood with the meathooks of fear and guilt. Every person is their own greatest teacher, but guilt robs them of that, because guilt is supremely unnatural to carry around for an entire lifetime. Little stabs of it here and there for posterity, but never a lifetime, over something that WASN'T THEIR FAULT.

Well freaking cry me a river. C'mon. So know everyone who was spanked a few times in their life is completely f8cked mentally. Give me a break.

This is a good statement for someone who was abused, do you consider spanking a kid a few times in their life abuse ?

“ .
Yes because you can't have deep reasonable compelling conversations with a 4 year old. They still think it's possible for Santa Claus to be real. ”

I would respond by pointing out that it’s the parents who are the clowns who teach their four year old about Santa to begin with. If you have the attitude that you have nothing compelling to learn from a four year old than it begs the question, why the hell have kids to begin with?

Really, so you would have the 4 year old run the house. Do you think I taught my kids about Santa ? Take a kid down the cereal section and see which ones they go crazy for, I'll give you a hint, it's not grapenuts.

It’s because you don’t blame your parents, and instead blame yourself, that you cannot ever truly be free. Even if they happened to be right about the issues that lead to the spanking, they robbed you of ever being able to have true ownership over yourself. Instead of conceiving of yourself as having intrinsic self-worth, you’ve established a narrative where you were a bratty kid who needed to be harshly corrected by wise and benevolent parents. No child EVER deserves to be humiliated. It’s a universal principle, not a local preference.

Humiliated. Again it was merely a lesson learned. He didn't take me out in the street and spank me in front of my friends. He didn't call me names etc etc. That would have been humiliating. What you can't get passed is that I accept responsibility, not because I want to cover for my parents. But because I am being responsible for my actions.

“ I truly hurt me more than it did them. Just like it did my dad. ”

No it didn’t. You dominated your children in order to protect yourself from the pain of having been spanked yourself. It’s selfish and immoral. I must point out that I take this hard-line more for my sake than your own, because I believe seeing shades of grey in areas such as this turns the whole world opaque.

More babble, really. This is so far from anything I can imagine it's comical.

It's not even remotely on my radar screen and if any of this did hit home I would admit it. Because, you would actually have proven to me that it is valid. But it's not even close.

“ How bout we let the children pay all the bills and make the decisions on what we should have for dinner while your at it. ”

Do you resent children for being children? This comment is revealing because you refer to your wealth and status and authority as being your value, without seemingly any other context than to belittle them: Which is unnecessary, because as you might have noticed adults are the only ones who have a voice in this conversation.

Again, more dime store psychology.

Do I resent children for being children ? LOL

Again, guilting as a defence mechanism. Why put yourself in a position to ever be compared with abusers to begin with?

You are the one who made the accusation. You are calling me a child abuser for spanking my kids a few times in their life.

Are you going to call me a child abuser for all of the time outs they have had ?

Are you going to call me a child abuser because I didn't by her a pony this year ?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Do you thank if you'r dad had spanked you harder at previous times... that you mite not have snuck off from home like you did... cause you woud have had a grater fear of the punishment


Originally Posted by jpappl
Maybe.

...But that would eliminate any decision making from me. My parents wanted me to be able to make choices and learn from mistakes. ”

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
Good pont... when "punishment" is the focus of attenton... the child is less focused on decison makin an learnin from ther mistakes... which is anuther argument agans punishments... especialy corporal punishments.!!!

Against punishments. No, its not a good argument. Because the point is to have them learn to make wise decisions, and that decisions and choices can have consequences both good and bad.

Should we continue to give money to someone who spends it all ?
Should we let someone continue to drive after they keep driving drunk ?

In each case, there has to be some form of detriment and or punishment for poor decisions. Some of them are self imposed, some need to be imposed from another source such as a parent or a cop.

My pont is... punishment ant necesary to get a kid to reflect on ther actions an learn from it IF the kid has been raized in a respectful manor... an the less a kid is hit... hollered at... or demeaned in other ways... the mor likely they will return the respect they received... an be mor "free" to form ther own good morals insted of focusin on bein "good" jus to avoid harsh punishments.!!!

I thank parents who spank are ignerent of beter methods an/or jus dont have the energy to put forth the effort.!!!

I even thank that parents who use "Time-outs" have alredy missed the boat... but if they put in the effort to learn an use time-outs corectly... an at the sam time begin to treet ther children wit respect... then time-outs will be less an less necesary as the child begins to trust an respect ther parents mor.!!!

The sam thang can work for parents who have alredy escilated ther abuce to Whippins... but the sad part is... by that time the childs personality may have alredy been formed to a large degree... an it may be to late to fully repair the effects of the prevous poor parentin skills... an to those parents who have wated to long to change ther ways... i say... seek professonal help for you an you'r kids.!!!

By your standards I would ask if they were such great parents why did you talk back in the first place.

Everbody has "faults" an messes up at times... they wasnt perfect an nether was i... but i give them the credit for the hapy family life i esperienced.!!!

Did you wreck the car because you were doing something stupid or just a new driver ?

Well put it this way... it wasnt the smartest thang i had done that day... lol.!!!

Me an a frind was drag racin on pea gravel... i fish-taled an hit a 2x4 stickin up out of the ground an it put a dent in the hood.!!!

...did you parents ever punish you for not doing homework ? I guess not if they never punished you.

My homework was my responsibility an i did a good enuff job of it to make at leas a "C" average... i had the impresson that if i got a "C" average that was good enuff an thats all the effort i put into school work.!!!

Do you actually write like this when you say send a letter or write someone a personal note.

Yes... in e-males to on-line frinds an real life frinds but i dont do letters... i use the fone... but about a year ago i was tryin to get som informaton about the moon an i e-maled about 4 diferent professors an i ask som questons in som other science groop... an on those e-males an posts... to insure i got an answr i took a lot of time usin a dictonary an spell check... an i tell you what... i wanted those answrs bad or i woudnt have gone to all that trouble.!!!

 

[jpappl]

Clueless,

My pont is... punishment ant necesary to get a kid to reflect on ther actions an learn from it IF the kid has been raized in a respectful manor... an the less a kid is hit... hollered at... or demeaned in other ways... the mor likely they will return the respect they received... an be mor "free" to form ther own good morals insted of focusin on bein "good" jus to avoid harsh punishments.!!!

And once again you have insulted me. Now I am not respectful to my children.

My kids are good, for the most part.

But they are kids and they need to learn consequences exist. It's not like I am smacking them every time the make a mistake. That is not how it works, that is abuse.

And if you have read what I have said, there were times I wasn't good and took a big risk even though I knew if caught I would be punished. The punishment would fit the crime.

My parents obviously didn't punish me in such a horrific way that made me never do bad things. If they had I wouldn't have done them. But there intent and mine with my kids is to allow them to make choices but have limits. If they make a really poor decision, that could have dier consequences, they need to know in very certain terms they were wrong.

I thank parents who spank are ignerent of beter methods an/or jus dont have the energy to put forth the effort.!!!

I even thank that parents who use "Time-outs" have alredy missed the boat... but if they put in the effort to learn an use time-outs corectly... an at the sam time begin to treet ther children wit respect... then time-outs will be less an less necesary as the child begins to trust an respect ther parents mor.!!!

And yet in this entire thread, no better alternatives were offered. In the parents books for raising children, they still have no better answers. Wonder why.

“ Originally Posted by jpappl
By your standards I would ask if they were such great parents why did you talk back in the first place. ”

Everbody has "faults" an messes up at times... they wasnt perfect an nether was i... but i give them the credit for the hapy family life i esperienced.!!!

And I to my parents.

“ Did you wreck the car because you were doing something stupid or just a new driver ? ”

Well put it this way... it wasnt the smartest thang i had done that day... lol.!!!

Me an a frind was drag racin on pea gravel... i fish-taled an hit a 2x4 stickin up out of the ground an it put a dent in the hood.!!!

So you did something stupid and due to your actions caused the damage. In which case you would have had to earn the right to have the car again. Your parents showed no guts and failed completely in their parenting responsibility.

...did you parents ever punish you for not doing homework ? I guess not if they never punished you. ”

My homework was my responsibility an i did a good enuff job of it to make at leas a "C" average... i had the impresson that if i got a "C" average that was good enuff an thats all the effort i put into school work.!!!

Exactly what I would expect from them. They didn't challenge you, they didn't demand from you to do better. This is where the discipline comes in, it's not easy for the parent. They need to take the hard road for the childs sake. Their responsibility is to prepare them for being an adult with all of the ramifications of bad decisions.

Do you think you could have done better if you were challenged to or if say they wouldn't let you use the car until you got your grades up ?

Do you actually write like this when you say send a letter or write someone a personal note. ”

Yes... in e-males to on-line frinds an real life frinds but i dont do letters... i use the fone... but about a year ago i was tryin to get som informaton about the moon an i e-maled about 4 diferent professors an i ask som questons in som other science groop... an on those e-males an posts... to insure i got an answr i took a lot of time usin a dictonary an spell check... an i tell you what... i wanted those answrs bad or i woudnt have gone to all that trouble.!!!

Ok, well I don't really want to comment on your grammar. I understand what your saying most of the time, but it's probably too hard now to go back and improve it much.

 

[Psyche]

This is to me a lot of babble. It is basically defending all children from punishment no matter what they do, in fact everything they do is apparently the parents fault which is BS.

I am not defending adults, I am admitting to doing things that I shouldn't have, I am admitting to being responsible for my actions. That's all.

Firstly, I’d ask of what necessity it is to punish children? is it so they understand your affection for them to be conditional? That their affection for you can be used to manipulate and "teach" them? Children can do plenty of things wrong, which is why it is important for them to have people who can teach them well without treating them as sub-humans.

Yep and part of that in fact a huge part of that and the essential job of the parent is to prepare them for adult life. A big part of which is learning to accept responsibility for their actions. Without that, they will struggle in life because they will always look to blame others.

A far more essential component of taking responsibility for your actions is being capable of standing up to your parents by seeing them as flawed human beings emerging out of their own unique histories, as is the case with all of us. Are you sating there weren’t one or two major instances in all of your upbringing they got anything wrong? Taking responsibility for your own actions doesn’t consist of internalizing the attitudes of authority figures, it involves embracing your individuality, the strongest most dynamic tool any of us has to work with. I’ll explain this better later…

I’m willing to admit I may be naive’ beyond reproach but my first response to any stunt my kid pulled with his peers would be curiosity, along with a need to impart my own feelings on the matter as if he were actually a human being. Most parents treat complete strangers better than they treat their own children, it’s always baffled me.

The alternatives to spanking are filled with guilt. Look through this thread at some of the suggested alternatives.

Unfortunately, children do often get guilted out of their wits for things beyond their control, given that most raising/education is geared towards domestication as opposed to freedom. I’ve just never seen it as the pinnacle of human interaction of any type. Too often guilt is used as a guillotine, to make up for the total absence of empathy.

Well freaking cry me a river. C'mon. So know everyone who was spanked a few times in their life is completely f8cked mentally. Give me a break.

This is a good statement for someone who was abused, do you consider spanking a kid a few times in their life abuse ?

I don’t think you understand what it is I’m saying. If you weren’t commanded by guilt, your response would not have been the slightest bit acerbic. I’ve claimed over and over that spanked people can be by all appearances happy, well-adjusted, and productive. I’m referring to a monolithic, subtle horror of people having their experience of life hijacked by the attitudes of their parents, most along the carrier wave of guilt. Spanking is a prime example of how this happens.

Really, so you would have the 4 year old run the house. Do you think I taught my kids about Santa ? Take a kid down the cereal section and see which ones they go crazy for, I'll give you a hint, it's not grapenuts.

I would give my left nut to be that enthusiastic about stupid crap. It’s a shame that adults do such a fantastic job of wringing it out of them by the time they reach adulthood.

Humiliated. Again it was merely a lesson learned. He didn't take me out in the street and spank me in front of my friends. He didn't call me names etc etc. That would have been humiliating. What you can't get passed is that I accept responsibility, not because I want to cover for my parents. But because I am being responsible for my actions.

Truly taking responsibility for your actions is standing up to authority, or standing up for a principle and not letting anyone knock you down for it. It is not slavishly learning the lessons of “corporal” punishment or otherwise. Everybody does that, were’ programmed to respond to our parents like that, it is nothing special.

More babble, really. This is so far from anything I can imagine it's comical.

It's not even remotely on my radar screen and if any of this did hit home I would admit it. Because, you would actually have proven to me that it is valid. But it's not even close.

Actually, according to my own thinking, if what I’ve been saying is correct, it would be virtually impossible for you or any other spanking advocate to see it. In fact, the best way you could prove me wrong is by agreeing with me.

Again, more dime store psychology.

Do I resent children for being children ? LOL
You are the one who made the accusation. You are calling me a child abuser for spanking my kids a few times in their life.

Are you going to call me a child abuser for all of the time outs they have had ?

Are you going to call me a child abuser because I didn't by her a pony this year ?

Ah, so the moral authority of the parent is merely a byproduct of their power? I’m glad we’ve cleared that up.

I personally have somewhat of a sore-spot for time outs. It was a favored form of torture used on me by evil people who do not deserve to live.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

My kids are good, for the most part.

It's not like I am smacking them every time the make a mistake. That is not how it works, that is abuse.

So you do realize that smackin you'r kids is abuce... you'r jus quibblin over how many smacks equates to abuce.!!!

My parents obviously didn't punish me in such a horrific way that made me never do bad things. If they had I wouldn't have done them. But there intent and mine with my kids is to allow them to make choices but have limits. If they make a really poor decision, that could have dier consequences, they need to know in very certain terms they were wrong.

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
I thank parents who spank are ignerent of beter methods an/or jus dont have the energy to put forth the effort.!!!

I even thank that parents who use "Time-outs" have alredy missed the boat... but if they put in the effort to learn an use time-outs corectly... an at the sam time begin to treet ther children wit respect... then time-outs will be less an less necesary as the child begins to trust an respect ther parents mor.!!!

And yet in this entire thread, no better alternatives were offered. In the parents books for raising children, they still have no better answers. Wonder why.

HUH :bugeye:

So you did something stupid and due to your actions caused the damage. In which case you would have had to earn the right to have the car again. Your parents showed no guts and failed completely in their parenting responsibility.

oK... LOL... but note this... i disagree

The accident hapened when i was 16... when i got home i tolt dad about it... an he didnt holler at me... much less get red-faced an call me stoopid... lol... he knew that i realized that i had messed up... ther was no need for punishment...he treeted me wit respect an we discused how i was gonna take care of gettin the car repaired an the discusson was over in about 10 minutes... we had a plan an we both felt good an enjoyed the rest of the evenin... an sinse he didnt do as you suggested an take the car from me... the nest day i took the car to the body shop an got a estimate an soom after got the car repaired... an the mos importent thang i got from the situaton was continuin to learn from the way dad handled the car accident... how he treeted me wit respect even tho i had messed up... an its somptin he instilled into me that directly carried over into the success of my marriage

One time my wife drove to close to a male-box an cracked the out-side mirrow on the truck... i looked at it an said i can easily fix that an let it drop an we enjoyed our evenin together... anuther time she was adjustin grocery bags an hit a telefone pole an cam into the traler cryin about what she had done... i hugged an kissed her an tolt her it was oK... we woud jus get it fixed... an jus like dad... i didnt make a big deal out of it (Thanks Dad... lol).!!!

My parents was oK wit me makin a "C" average an thats all i shot for.!!!

Exactly what I would expect from them. They didn't challenge you, they didn't demand from you to do better. This is where the discipline comes in, it's not easy for the parent. They need to take the hard road for the childs sake. Their responsibility is to prepare them for being an adult with all of the ramifications of bad decisions.

Do you think you could have done better if you were challenged to or if say they wouldn't let you use the car until you got your grades up ?

Lecture noted... lol.!!!

Well short answr... yes i coud have done beter if i had been encouraged to do beter than a "C" average at school.!!!

An 50 an 60 year ago in my little paart of Kentuky... graduatin high school wasnt considered all that importent... it was quite common for kids to quit early an get a job... an i ant sure how far she got but i know mom didnt graduate... an dad got a 9th grade educaton sam as me... an i certanly woudnt advise kids not to graduate high school an go to college... but "luckly" thangs worked out fine for me... an even if i coud... i woudnt change a thang about my educaton level at the time... because my life woud have turned out diferently an i woudnt risk that for nuthin.!!!

I know my parents wasnt perfect in all ways... but i love them in spite of that an feel very "lucky" to have had them for parents.!!!

Origionaly posted by Psyche
Truly taking responsibility for your actions is standing up to authority, or standing up for a principle and not letting anyone knock you down for it.

That reminds me of when i was in the 4th grade... an my teecher an the school Principle was towerin over me out in the hallway... an the Principle tolt me to apologize to my teecher an i said no... an agan he ask an i said no agan... an he got all red-faced an walked off... lol... so she made good on her threat... that if i didnt apologize i was gonna get a spankin... so she took me to the front of the class an proceded to hit me wit her farely thin paddle... it was stingin but didnt hurt to bad... an the normal thang that hapened was... she woud hit the kid 2 or 3 times an they woud start cryin an she woud send 'em to ther desk an they woud put ther head down an continue cryin for a little while... well she kep a hittin but i wasnt cryin... an i guess her arm got tired so she swithced the paddle to her other hand an started hittin som mor but she still coudnt make me cry.... so then she turned the paddle on its edge an started hittin me behind my knees... an that did hurt a bit but not near enuff to make me cry... so she gave up an sent me to my seat... but i didnt put my head down an cry... i jus stared at her... lol.!!!

While she was hittin me... all the other kids was watchin an ther eyes was big as saucers... lol.!!!

It was almos time for school to let out an i went by moms bidness on the way home an she ask why i was walkin kinda funny... i tolt her i got a whippin an my legs hurt... she looked an saw that the bak of my legs was brused behind my knees.!!!

Mom complaned to the Principle an after that the teecher never slapped me or paddled me for the rest of the year.!!!

Somtims that teecher was sweet but other times she was mean as a snake.!!!

 

[Ellie]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
I thank parents who spank are ignerent of beter methods an/or jus dont have the energy to put forth the effort.!!!

What about when all other methods have been exhausted?

Bear in mind that i am referring to children and not teen agers. My own feeling is up to they reach school age.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
I thank parents who spank are ignerent of beter methods an/or jus dont have the energy to put forth the effort.!!!

What about when all other methods have been exhausted?

Bear in mind that i am referring to children...

,,,up to they reach school age.

Thats the sam type queston as... what about when youv'e exhausted all other methods an not even whippin works... what do you do then.???

 

[visceral_instinct]

Psyche, why is time out a sore spot for you? It's actually very much reasonable. If someone is being disruptive, you send them away from whatever the activity is, so they don't mess it up for other people.