Southern Americans have 'honour culture'

heliocentric

Registered Senior Member
In this brilliantly argued book, Professor Nisbett and coauthor Cohen explore the reasons behind the higher rate for homicides among whites in the southern United States. They discover that it isn't socioeconomic class, population density, the legacy of slavery, or the heat of the South; it is the traditional "culture of honor"—in which a man's reputation is seen as central to his economic survival—that makes the difference.In this culture, insult more easily leads to aggressive defense of honor, and the agression more often leads to violence.

The reason? A "culture of honor." Unlike the North, which was settled by farmers from England, Holland, and Germany, the South was settled by herdsmen from the fringes of Britain. Herdsmen the world over tend to be capable of great aggressiveness and violence because their wealth, their primary economic resource—animals—are so easily stolen. And because the South's low population densities have always meant that the state was less able to enforce compliance with the law and citizens have had to create their own system of order. Finally, unchallenged insults give the impression that you can't protect your family or property.
http://leighbureau.com/speaker_documents.asp?view=book&id=331


Its an interesting book, ive not read all of it but what i have read is backed up by empirical research and makes a hell of alot of sense.
The central premise (if you hadnt already guessed) is that southern states still carry with them a strong 'herdsmen' mentality, where swift judgements and violent punishment is a necessity of life.
The problem is, herding communities within the south are now comparitively sparse, but the old 'no nosense' attitude seems to have stuck around despite of this.

Will future generations carry the same attitude with them do you think? Would be interesting to hear some southern peeps views on this.
 
Yeah, farmers in India commit suicide when they become bankrupt as well.
 
So violence is honorable?

Honor <- Offend | Defend honor -> Aggression
Aggression -> Violence
Violence = Offend | Defend honor

Or is non-violence honorable?

Honor <- Offend | Defend honor -> Aggression
Aggression -> Non-violence
Non-violence = Offend | Defend honor
 
I've not read the book but it sounds plausible given the data presented.

However, I would like to point out that the early american west sounds very similar, in that, an unchallenged threats within sparsely populated areas leaves the individual "sightless" as to the full intentions of an aggressor. Common sense would tell the average person to challenge any aggressor and end their existence or at least severely discourage them in case they got it in their bones to follow-up where no resistance was offered, as stated in your post. So I don't think this is entirely a southern thing, but it certainly has lasted.

I think also that the south simply has better weather than the north and therefore, less time is spent on surviving the snow and more time is spent dicking around.

I lived in the deep south for 12 years. The "good 'ol boy" system holds true to the clanish mentality. Clan or family pride is very important in the south. I wouldn't call it tribal, but if you push the right buttons it can be.
As I once called it: Watch out for that rebel pride, that yankee arrogance, and that western indifference.

Let's just say I'm glad to be back out west where people generally don't have to know your business.
 
This might explain Baron Max's fondness for duelling (see the separate thread on that topic).
 
I think most anyone can take isolated data and make a case for almost anything! And there are many examples of it in this day and time ...many fiction books are mislabeled as non-fiction ...just because they included some isolated data to "prove" their theory(-ies).

I think a good example is "Guns, Butter and Germs", or somesuch title, about the reason why blacks in Africa are so backward, never achieved a damned thing for themselves. It's just all excuses, grandiose excuses, yes, but excuses just the same.

Anyone can "prove" almost anything with the "right" data isolated from other, contradictory data.

Baron Max
 
This might explain Baron Max's fondness for duelling (see the separate thread on that topic).

No, actually not. I was trying to see past some of today's viciousness in revenge killings ...like drive-by shootings, or arguments in a bar where the one guy goes out to his car, gets his gun and returns to the bar to shoot wildly at his opponent but hitting more innocent bystanders rather than the intended target. We've been getting lots of that in Dallas lately.

And "fondness" is not the right word. I think "usefulness" is a better term. If we could have legal duels, many of those random shootings might be averted.

Baron Max
 
No, actually not. I was trying to see past some of today's viciousness in revenge killings ...like drive-by shootings, or arguments in a bar where the one guy goes out to his car, gets his gun and returns to the bar to shoot wildly at his opponent but hitting more innocent bystanders rather than the intended target. We've been getting lots of that in Dallas lately.

And "fondness" is not the right word. I think "usefulness" is a better term. If we could have legal duels, many of those random shootings might be averted.

Baron Max

Yeah lets legalize killing instead of addressing the issue.:confused:
 
Its true, it is very easy to pull data and statistics together to make a case. What got me though was how it correlates so well with how other herding communities around the world generally interact and do business.

I'll reserve judgement till ive read the whole book though.
 
Yeah lets legalize killing instead of addressing the issue.

What "issue" are you talkin' about, Sam?

And it's not legalized killing, it's dueling ...a fair and honorable way of seeking personal satisfaction between two consenting adults.

Many Muslims seek personal satisfaction by blowing up a bunch of innocent women and children. I'm just seeking a way for them to gain that same satisfaction from someone who consents to the duel ...and does NOT harm innocent people.

Baron Max
 
What "issue" are you talkin' about, Sam?

And it's not legalized killing, it's dueling ...a fair and honorable way of seeking personal satisfaction between two consenting adults.

Many Muslims seek personal satisfaction by blowing up a bunch of innocent women and children. I'm just seeking a way for them to gain that same satisfaction from someone who consents to the duel ...and does NOT harm innocent people.

Baron Max

Yup, legalised killing, no matter which way you slice it.
 
What got me though was how it correlates so well with how other herding communities around the world generally interact and do business.

I think you could find that very same attitude with farming communities and the like, not just herding cattle and goats. One think you should keep in mind is the ideals of family-oriented societies versus ...ahh, well, the other kind! I.e., big cities where most people don't know anyone ...and mostly don't care about the others ...and crime against persons thrives. That very isolation of people is probably much stronger than the herding or farming issue.

I'll reserve judgement till ive read the whole book though.

Yeah, that's good. But don't just believe the author because it all "sounds good". A little critical thinking about it might help, too.

Baron Max
 
Yup, legalised killing, no matter which way you slice it.

Death or killing doesn't even have to enter into it, Sam. A duel could just as easily be a boxing match or wrestling match or a basketball scoring match or a scored target shooting or......

Why do you continue to think of killing all the time? Is that because some Muslims think like that way so much or what?

Baron Max
 
Death or killing doesn't even have to enter into it, Sam. A duel could just as easily be a boxing match or wrestling match or a basketball scoring match or a scored target shooting or......

Why do you continue to think of killing all the time? Is that because some Muslims think like that way so much or what?

Baron Max

Is the purpose of wrestling or boxing to kill the opponent?
 
I'm not the one advocating dueling in lieu of legal measures.

What does "legal measures" solve, Sam? If two people are in dispute, do you actually think that "legal measures" will solve that dispute? ...one person wearing black robes and spewing his opinion is going to solve that dispute?

Baron Max
 
What does "legal measures" solve, Sam? If two people are in dispute, do you actually think that "legal measures" will solve that dispute? ...one person wearing black robes and spewing his opinion is going to solve that dispute?

Baron Max

Not in Texas, apparently. I hear they prefer to shoot at each other.
 
Not in Texas, apparently. I hear they prefer to shoot at each other.

Well, the Palestinians don't believe in the legal system either! Nor, apparently, do the Muslims in Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan or.... Hmm, Muslims don't seem to believe in the legal system at all, do they? Or is that only when the judgement goes the way they want it?

Baron Max
 
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