Smoking in the presence of a child = Child Abuse

Sir Aristrotle

The C.E.O. of Teen-Moods
Registered Senior Member
This entire post is about eliminating 1) Second Hand Smoke 2) Smoking Influence from home.

I believe that smoking around, or in the presence of a child should be frowned upon by the government and be set as illigal.

This is how many kids get started smoking, simply because their parents do it, there are many scenerios where kids will start smoking or atleast try smoking as a result of their parent's habit.

Although there is plenty of anti-tobbaco and anti-drug education on Telivision (Programs like TRUTH) and in school (Programs like D.A.R.E.), the influence it the strongest in the home and that alone can overcome anything said and shown to the kids in school or on TV.

Read an article which went into detail about what happens when Kids catch the hell Second-Hand Smoke provides. It reveled some things to me I didn't even know. Like the fact that Nicotiene appears in urine samples from children who parents smoke around them. After that, I got furious about the subject.
I live in a house, where my mom smokes, without care or reguard for my or my little sister. I printed out the article and gave it to her, after reading the first 2 lines put the paper down and looked away.

What do you guys think about the law intervening when it comes to Second Hand Smoke at home?
 
Umm ... yeah. A mess of notes ....

Random (and Not-So-Random) Notes on Tobacco and Americans:

There is always a difficulty in this country when considering the benefit of children and laws pertaining to age. You're not supposed to discriminate before the law based on age, but we all know that children aren't people in this country.

Children imitate their parents; in addition to the addictive qualities of nicotine, it is quite sensible to point out the connection between smoking parents and smoking children.

DARE was rejected in 1999 or thereabout by a couple of states, as the statistical result showed that DARE graduates were actually more likely to become involved with drugs. The Truth Campaign is paid for, I'm told, by tobacco money as part of the settlement that got lost in the Clinton Years; it makes sense, as it casts non-smokers as militant, small-minded (expletive)s. I think of that one commercial, where the "camera" picks a kid out of a group of several walking past. The kid is so hostile that I, as a parent, would be ashamed of my parenting if my daughter grew up to speak to people like that regularly.

Peer pressure can overcome any influence in the home if peer pressure leans toward the permissive. Peer pressure can overcome anti-smoking messages of the home easier than it can stop a child from smoking.

We do all sorts of dangerous things to children. Take them hunting, cutting trees; I crawled around an engine compartment on a boat once simply because I was the one small enough to fit in there; who said anything about it being safe? Or working in my dad's shop when I was a kid, being exposed to various dusts and toxic fumes without a mask. I've known kids who scrabbled up to top a tree with their dad; I've known kids to help their parents roof a house.

And that's the problem. Businesses like bars and nightclubs, where cigarettes are quite commonplace, complain that they suffer business losses when smoking is banned citywide, though these bans usually have to do with children, since adults can choose to go someplace non-smoking. And that's the thing: it is illegal in some places for me to open a business designed to cater to smokers. You can't even smoke in a tobacconist's shop in some places, which is the end of an American tradition that even I got to enjoy in my day. (Every tobacconist I ever bought from also sold collectibles and cutlery, natural extensions of tobacco smoking, but also designed to supplement the cigarette business; like the "King of the Hill" bookstore episode, tobacconists seem to be a social institution designed specifically so the owner can sit around and chat about chess, World War 2, or the latest in German and Japanese cutting technology, fine wines, better days in Havana, &c, &c.)

But that's how ridiculous it is.

And considering those two aspects--the hazards children are subjected to and the scale of legislation taking place--it will be difficult, if not impossible, to pass a Home Health Secondhand Smoke law.

People are allowed to do what they want in their homes. My mother, in her early fifties, almost killed herself once because while she knew as a general concept to not mix bleach and ammonia, she didn't know to what degree that warning comes. It wasn't a heavy mix, merely ammonia in residual bleach on the container. She didn't pass out, but I did hear her hit the wall stumbling blindly out of the laundry room. Should that mistake against common sense become illegal because it has the potential to harm a child? (There is a point to that extreme example.)

The point is that if you take a look around at American laws and the society they allege to protect, you'll find there is a certain degree at which the law is expected to stop. It is only the war against marijuana and the War on Drugs that makes the kind of intrusion you're seeking a possibility; prior to the Reagan escalation of the Drug War (at a time when the number of households using drugs was declining) few laws dared enter the home so boldly as would a law banning smoking in the home.

Whether it is an abortion or the decision to put a child up for adoption; whether or not to inoculate your child; whether or not your kid climbs into the filthy bilge of a boat, or a warm (from running) hot (electricity) toxic (fuel, lubricant, &c) engine compartment (the engine was shut off at the time); whether or not Johnny goes up on the roof with Dad to tar the roof (note that most roofs are tarred in the middle of summer); going hunting (although my morbid favorite is the videotape of the kid accidentally shooting his dad) ... some decisions which bear results vital to the society in general are left entirely to the parents. Consider issues of religion in public education; yes, it's true--I have the right to intentionally raise a stupid human being. I can legally twist my daughter's little mind to such degrees as to make death seem a merciful option, even by lung cancer. (It's amazing, the things you can do to your kid if you don't beat or rape them.)

And I can put other harmful chemicals in my child. I mean, come on ... I defend American bacon because I love the stuff, but I won't kid anyone and say that I don't have to think a bit before introducing my daughter to bacon. The stuff's horrible for you. On the other hand, I'm more likely to stop smoking this year than I am to stop eating bacon ever. You'll slide that last slice of maple-and-pepper bacon out of my cold, stiff, greasy fingers when I'm dead; but that's kind of unnatural for me, so I wonder about all the crap in some of the horrible meats I consume. But would it be wrong of me to let my daughter eat pepperoni, bacon, hot dogs (statistically a potential carcinogen) &c? Ask an old garage mechanic or someone else who would have cause to take Coca-Cola and a wire brush to a piece of metal. We don't feed our children solvent, but we do feed them an addictive, exceptionally acidic tasty treat from time to time. Up here, the "we'll tell you what to worry about" people in our local news media have noted the number of children "surviving" on a steady diet of caffeine, sugar, and hydrogenated oils (e.g. - a bag of chips and a Pepsi in the morning) ...

Now then, these are only things to think about in terms of crafting a law. Because nothing changes two facts:

- Tobacco is present in the household in as many as 80% of SIDS incident diagnoses.
- There is a clear statistical correlation showing that children of smokers learn to smoke.

But nobody prosecuted my aunt, who smoked and drank during her first two pregnancies; one child is a recovering addict, the other has Down's Syndrome.

And that's the thing: Yes, nicotine is addictive, harmful, and easily transferred to the next person. But it's been ... eight years since I lived somewhere that I smoked inside; most smokers I know choose to go outside, even in the dead of winter, when smoking at home. But choices are part of what's at stake; yes, we know that the child cannot exactly pack up and leave, though it has happened that nicotine habit control has been part of child-custody and visitation settlements.

Understanding that complete anarchy is the state of things without laws, it can be expressed that laws are conventions established by people to simplify the maintenance of certain parts of their living necessity. That is, we want certain things but don't want to spend all day worrying about them, so we pass a law to make sure those things are taken care of.

Because of all these things, the idea of passing a Home Health Secondhand Smoke law is just a little over the top. Sure, it might mean a revolution in oven cleaners, but the Devil has the advantage of having what people want. Not so much in terms of the tobacco itself, but the tobacco companies find themselves in the not-entirely unique circumstance of having their villainy preserve a more general but vital part of the paradigm. In this case, imagine what happens when you say, "Because of the risk to children, it is illegal to smoke inside a home where children might be."

Just think of how big a precedent that would be, and how broadly it could be applied. Because of the risk to children, it is illegal to _____ in any place where one can reasonably expect children might eventually be.

And it has to cover that eventuality because of an interesting incident at the hospital when my daughter was born. After getting the riot act from a nurse for admitting to being a smoker, I happened to be discussing the issue with both the doctor and another nurse on separate occasions, in which I actually had to ask, "So you mean the Angry Nurse lied?" In one case, I got that grimace, tip of the head, and, "She means well." In the other, I got a thoughtful look and the response, "She probably extrapolated."

In the end, as a new parent, I was given the following instructions:

- Smoke outside, away from open windows or air intake vents
- Change your clothes after you smoke
- "Stripper baths" are helpful (baby-wipes for your face, neck, and even chest)
- Isolate "smoking clothes" from the baby's environment
- Because it is not "just" secondhand smoke that causes problems; a child will breathe nicotine vapor out of your clothing, the furniture, or other surfaces previously inundated with cigarette smoke; the baby can receive nicotine directly off your skin.

The tobacco companies get a quiet and dubious comfort in seeing that the celebrations after the passage of a strict anti-smoking law usually leads to a hangover.

Cigarettes are fairly unique compared to other harms, but that only makes them a banner issue. When it comes down to right, wrong, and the law, the first and foremost argument I can think of against a Home Health Secondhand Smoke law would be that this it the United States of America, and the People generally don't go in for that degree of government intrusion in their homes.

Should we prosecute the parents of obese children who do not actively address the situation in terms of diet? (One of my favorite morbid images of youth was the number of young, overweight women I saw who would eat "just a salad" because they were "on a diet", yet consumed "Diet" Pepsi like water through the gills. Diet Pepsi doesn't give you any real benefit if you drink six of them a day. There's Alpine Lace, why feed your child good cheese? And what, then, of Velveeta and "processed American cheese"?

And that's just a single facet of the problem of children and harm. Seriously, should we mandate the "Subway" diet? Of course, I have a friend that swears by the Atkins Diet; watch someone make "Atkins" "blueberry" (?!) muffins. (Yes, such a product exists: Pour contents of box into mixing bowl. Add vegetable oil. Mix. Add more vegetable oil. Mix. Add more vegetable oil. Mix. Does it "look" right? Good, now put it in the muffin pan and throw it in the oven.)

My mother used to keep me away from "red" food because red, sugary foods were said to contribute to hyperactivity more than other colors of sugary food. She thought it a better alternative than Ritalin (side effects include learning impediment and facial dysmorphia, but I'd have to look up my mother's company's source on that, since they competed with Ritalin), and I'm one of the lucky ones of my generation who ducked the meds craze. But I can note that fully three-quarters of my associates who happen to use cocaine, methamphetamine, or other speedy drugs were dosed with medical-grade speed as kids to control hyperactivity.

How many children do we want suing their parents for this or that harmful effect?

Parents need to treat their vices similarly. It is smarter if a nicotine-addicted parent can minimize the child's exposure (do not smoke in a car, ever, if your child is going to ride in it), and so in that sense I suggest to smoking parents to treat it like sex. Yes, you do it, but you don't do it in front of your kids, you don't leave stains on the sofa, and you don't leave porno and condoms around for the kids to play with. But trying to force the situation.

I'm curious about the urine samples: What ages in what study? I mean, one of my best friends started at 13, a girl I knew in school started at 11, and when my Dad was a high school teacher and football coach in Idaho in the 1970s, there was a flap that included several parents calling for his dismissal because he prohibited tobacco chewing among his football players. His reasoning was that while he couldn't stop them from chewing in class, he could on the field. Several parents apparently told the school board that they didn't want a man like that teaching their child. One football father apparently said, "I taught my kid to chew, dammit!"

(Juxtaposition for humor - sex ed ... you'll notice that when parents protest sex ed because it's an issue best kept at home, nobody ever announces to the school board, "I taught my daughter to f@ck, dammit!")

I mean, there's no question about the transferability of nicotine, in my mind. But anti-vice studies are notoriously devilish in the detail; consider for instance the marijuana use/carcinogenic studies that don't account for tobacco use among pot smokers. In other words, the damage may be done: beyond secondhand smoke, a child of 9 may have started smoking already. My first cigarette was at age 11, didn't touch 'em again until I was 13, and treated them scandalously and rarely until I got busted in high school. I finally took up smoking as a habit at 18, to go with coffee after work. The longest I've spent away from nicotine since then is 18 months. I'm actually gearing up for a summertime run at quitting, but one literally cannot give it any attention at all. Like this post. All it's done is kicked in my associative cravings. The more laws we have about cigarettes, the more the smokers will smoke, which says something about natural and artificial selection. But in terms of protecting the children, stupid parents who subject their children to secondhand smoke only contribute to the weakness of the gene pool. Perhaps there's some natural selection there. I don't actually know.

But I just don't see what it is that the anti-smokers don't get. In one tobacco settlement, Camel agreed to give up Joe Camel billboards. So they just put the Camel logo up, with no words, in shocking contrasts (e.g. yellow and black). My brother counted, watching me smoke once on a road trip. At the speed limit, the signs were placed ten minutes apart on the freeway for nearly a hundred miles. He's convinced they were just there to keep smokers smoking, constantly remind and prod them, kindle a craving. And it's true, I tell you. But what people don't seem to understand is that anti-smoking propaganda is pretty much the same way. We had a campaign up here where schoolchildren's ideas for billboards were translated to full-size, complete with cutesy misspellings and crayon signatures, "Megan, 7", or "Joey, 10". They stopped putting them up because the billboards, aimed at smokers, merely made us reach for our packs.

In fact, I'm signing off now in order to go smoke a cigarette. That I've made it through this post without one is due to timing; you need thirty minutes, now, to smoke a cigarette. Emma Grace has been giving me about ten at a clip today.

And consider that one of the reasons this post has grown so long is that it's a great diversion from not being able to smoke because of circumstance and priority.

But that's the kind of mentality that is involved with addictive habits.

No prohibitionist law will get me to stop smoking. But one libertarian allowance will do it. Legalize pot: A notable percentage of smokers will quit smoking tobacco almost overnight. When pot costs less than gold, I'll have less reason to use an addictive, known carcinogen instead.

It would be more advantageous (or, at least, more in tune with common sense), in fact, to ban tobacco altogether and legalize marijuana. What fun is cocaine without three packs of cigarettes to go along with the night? (What fun is cocaine, period? I don't do it because I don't see the point of getting hyped up just to sit around, smoke, and play dominoes.)

But a tobacco ban wouldn't work any better than any other prohibition. Rather, the "War on Tobacco" has to be waged differently.

... must ... smoke ... now .... ("Tigger! Get the moon-suits!")

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:
 
cutesy misspellings and crayon signatures
lol

Here is one thing I thought of.
Banning Tabbaco ADVERTSING Alltogether will eliminate all tabbaco ads. Period.

Can't hang a sign in a window advertising rocks of cocain, so you wouldn't be able to to have thousands of billboards advertising joe camel and his damn cigeretts...

Are there more crack heads than nicotene addicts?
 
Tiassa,

Outstanding reply........

"No prohibitionist law will get me to stop smoking. But one libertarian allowance will do it. Legalize pot: A notable percentage of smokers will quit smoking tobacco almost overnight. When pot costs less than gold, I'll have less reason to use an addictive, known carcinogen instead. "


Yes, exactly!

"What fun is cocaine, period?"

Again, yes, exactly. I agree with ya 100%

:D
 
WHAT???

Trust me, i am a student in high school, so i don't really care about pot, and i don't scream don't smoke!

However, to legalize it just to reduce cigarette smokers is stupid. SO now people would do fewer cigarettes, but they would then be toking all day. THat's just what our country needs...nore dumbfucks who fry their braincells every night.

Good ided though...not
 
I'm with you Wilcox8686, I'm in School of the High (get it?) and legalizing pot won't help anything. Maybe creating a canibus drink witht he positive effects if POT could be legalised but if we can do that, then there is no need to legalize the hole deal.
 
This entire post is about eliminating 1) Second Hand Smoke 2) Smoking Influence from home.

Why? Whats wrong with smoking? It's no worse than a thousand and one other things around.
How about banning murder and rape instead? Thats got to be better for the world than a ban on smoking.

Take care now.
Dee Cee
 
Originally posted by DeeCee
Why? Whats wrong with smoking? It's no worse than a thousand and one other things around.
How about banning murder and rape instead? Thats got to be better for the world than a ban on smoking.

Take care now.
Dee Cee

Tabbaco is a drug. Period. It should be banned.
But to tell you the truth, I do not care if others smoke, I just don't want them doing it around me. It also pollutes. Just alittle pollution is too much...

Whats wrong with smoking?
It kills. It causes lung cancer, amoung many other things like black lungs, heart disease and brown teeth.

Why?
Because its harmful, just as harmful as any other drug like crack or heroine(sp).

You said "It's no worse than a thousand and one other things around." I say, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I swear, your reply alone, was the most stupid thing I have ever read in a forum...
 
Originally posted by Sir Aristrotle
its harmful, just as harmful as any other drug like crack or heroine(sp).

What planet do you come from? I just started smoking, and in the past 2 weeks i have smoked 2 packs. Yet, i decided that i didn't like it, and i quit.

However, if i started crack, i would be addicted arter the first hit or two. My dad used to work in the ER at Parkland Hospital in Dallas. He has seen a shit load of people killed by crackheads because they get so fucked up.

My dad once told me that he saw a 2 year old dead baby there...the mom was so addicted to crack that she let her dealer rape her daughter. Would a person do that for cigarettes?:rolleyes:

As for your post, get the facts right, and don't call other people's posts stupid when yours is just plain wrong you moron.
 
I just started smoking

You shouldn't talk, moron. Smoking is just as stupid as both of your parents... :rolleyes: You're all idiots to me, not like I care what some niccotene addict (you) calls me over the INTERNET! :bugeye: You slow addicted fuck
 
You stupid fuck...i said that i quit...are you illiterate?

Besides, are you saying that you never smoked when you were in high school? If you say no, you are lying.:)

Besides, what the hell do my parents have to do with this? You are slowly digging yourself into a hole.

Besides, i do think that you care what i call you over the internet, because you really freaked out over my last post.
 
Addiction intervention

Originally posted by tiassa
Legalize pot: A notable percentage of smokers will quit smoking tobacco almost overnight. When pot costs less than gold, I'll have less reason to use an addictive, known carcinogen instead.
The point is not that tobacco users will switch to pot and just start chain smoking pot. The point is that pot seems to have the ability to reduce withdrawal symptoms from certain other drugs. I've seen it happen with enough people and booze. They wake up in the morning with their heads just splitting and all they want is another shot, and start the cycle all over again. Instead somebody handed them a joint. Sure they got stoned, but it also made the hangover go away so they didn't have the urge to get drunk again right away. It broke the cycle. When the pot wore off they didn't care about having more because pot wasn't their drug of choice, they didn't want to stay stoned. But they were real happy to have gotten through a hangover without having more booze. It broke the cycle of alcoholism.

Perhaps it will do the same thing for nicotine withdrawal. It certainly won't turn nicotine fiends into potheads. People who say weird shit like that either slept through the 1960s or attended one too many D.A.R.E. lectures.
 
So I guess giving children cigarettes is child abuse also?
Hmmmmm, well I don't want to be a child abuser.... at least I'll be saving money...
 
Tabbaco is a drug. Period. It should be banned.

Why? You some sort of puritan? Never drink coffee, tea, coke?
What about your script for prozac and your daily asprin?
I'm confused. Please explain.

It kills. It causes lung cancer, amoung many other things like black lungs, heart disease and brown teeth.

Like exhaust fumes?

God save me from brown teeth! :rolleyes:
Dee Cee
 
The libertarian can't help himself, gotta speak up

Originally posted by Sir Aristrotle
Tobacco is a drug. Period. It should be banned.... I swear, your reply alone, was the most stupid thing I have ever read in a forum...
No, actually, your statement is right up there. I grit my teeth and read through a lot of stupid shit on this forum because these are kids and if there's one thing my own generation taught the world it's that you can't teach kids everything they need to know by just lecturing them. Some of it they have to go out and learn on their own, even if it means taking risks.

But for god's sake, what rock have you been hibernatiing under to believe that:

1. "Drugs" are bad. I get it, Sir Aristotle (misspelled like most of the multi-syllable words in your post -- better lay off the Valium) is Mister Mackie's screen ID.

Caffeine is a drug, and a fairly dangerous one. If you don't believe me, try driving on the freeway in the morning rush hour, surrounded by all the white-knuckled Starbucks junkies. And we actually GIVE it to kids. We complain if they get hyperactive, and the other ones we pump full of stimulants. Just can't leave the poor buggers alone to develop their own personalities, can we?

2. You can ban drugs.

There are (at least) two things that no society in history has successfully banned: drugs and religion. Their attraction is too strong. They make people feel so good that they'll risk their lives for them. When you outlaw them all you succeed in doing is to create a lucrative black market, remove a really rich industry from the tax base, and often as not push all the profits offshore.

Just ponder one thing: the United States of America, the most powerful nation that ever existed, and one that has shown itself not to have a weak stomach when it comes to repression, has been totally unable to keep drugs out of its PRISONS! You really think we can ban tobacco?

(Actually it's proven just as impossible to ban music. But I like Frank Zappa's definition that music is the one true religion: it says it will make you happy and it does.)
 
Originally posted by DeeCee
Why? You some sort of puritan? Never drink coffee, tea, coke?
What about your script for prozac and your daily asprin?
I'm confused. Please explain.
You have to keep in mind that Sir Aristotle is as fanatical an anti-smoking nut as you're ever likely to come across. I recall a thread a while ago in which he said that tobacco executives who sell cigarettes are worse than the Nazis who gassed six million of Europe's Jews. Just to give you some perspective on where he's coming from…
 
Tobacco should be legal, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck big time.

Well, as much as my libertarian philosophy leads me to be extremely tolerant of drug use by consenting adults, the theory of addiction is nonetheless not completely bullshit. In my opinion, of all the popular drugs, tobacco has got to be the worst by any standard of social conscience.

Addictivity: extremely high. Synanon, the original drug rehab center in L.A., lost more patients when it stopped giving out free cigarettes than it ever did by simply not locking the doors on heroin addicts.

Health risk: extremely high. Yeah, crack is bad, but nobody would have bothered to invent crack if powder coke were legal. Yeah, meth is bad, but many meth users are just looking for an escape that they could just as easily get from marijuana. But pot is bulky, stinky, and shows up in a drug test weeks later, so they've "social engineered" young Americans into trying other drugs that are less dangerous in terms of getting busted but more deadly. Good job, Uncle Sam.

The high: nothing to rave about. Nicotine is a mood leveler. You don't have to figure out if you're anxious or depressed, a fag will push you either direction you need to go to get back to an emotional center. A drug for people who don't actually want a psychoactive effect, they're trying to avoid highs and lows. And a drug for people who are so out of touch with themselves that they can't figure out whether they need/crave an upper or a downer.

All in all, tobacco gives drugs a bad name!
 
I'm a smoker, and I enjoy it.

I dont think it's right though.

I've also taken (in INCREDIBLY dangerous levels) almost all other drugs, Heroin (never injected) cocaine, crack, alcohol (2 litre bottles of whisky in an hour, and all other drugs to that level except smack, just using alcohol as a well-known example).

I dont advocate drinking, smoking, taking illegal drugs, but I DO believe it's shown me things (not little green men, just different ways of looking at things), so I really dont know where I stand here.

Drugs ARE bad, and I wouldn't advise anyone to take any. I would like to see all illegal, but then I get the feeling people would be missing out on someone.

Sorry for my confused reply.
 
I agree. Smoking in an environment that means a child will inhale the fumes isn't right. I wouldn't really smoke in an environment where there are children, but having said that there are sometimes children in pubs, where I have smoked. That doesn't mean to say that it's the smokers fault though! It's their habit and if they want to smoke they should be allowed to. Again, having said that, smoking around children could mean that they will try to imitate this. Again, I would say it's the smokers choice though. If they don't condone the habit, I don't think they should be persecuted for it.

Nice to see you kept the title non-shocking :rolleyes: ;)
 
i don't understand why people have to do any of those drugs. what satisfaction is derived from cigarettes anyway? i've smoked in high school like all kids do (unfortunately) but i saw no reason to take it up as a hobby. it's a gross tube of paper with burning leaves and poisons inside. yuck. i also don't know anyone who actually enjoys it. they all know it's bad for them and wish they could quit but they keep on doing it.
 
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