Shown solutions to physics problems in lucid dream

BertBonsai

Registered Senior Member
So... yesterday I awake in early morning, try to get back to sleep when *wham* I'm in a lucid dream, in some guy's office. He says he used to be a physicist, apparently dead now but I didn't ask. He told me that physics/cosmology on Earth has gone down wrong paths, and showed me solutions to some of its big problems. I was there over an hour it seemed. I tried to commit the solutions to memory and wrote down details afterward. (I don't have a formal background in physics but I have read some books on the basic ideas, enough to mostly follow what he said.)

Anyone wanna hear them or is this frowned upon here?

These were the issues:

* flatness problem
* dark energy
* horizon problem
* quantum gravity dilemma
* information paradox
 
okay, but perhaps more on this one later since it's bedtime...

He said that an object launched upward from a planet at close to the speed of light will measurably accelerate away and not decelerate like you'd think. He said that's predicted by special relativity (I'm still working out some calcs he showed me), and the idea can be extrapolated to distant receding objects. Space is not expanding at all, as thought today, so there's no expansion of space to be accelerating; he gave me an example for that one that blew me away it was so simple.
 
He said that an object launched upward from a planet at close to the speed of light will measurably accelerate away and not decelerate like you'd think. He said that's predicted by special relativity (I'm still working out some calcs he showed me), and the idea can be extrapolated to distant receding objects.
That's wrong since SR doesn't include gravity hence your dream isn't correct.
 
That's wrong since SR doesn't include gravity hence your dream isn't correct.
That's not really true, I learned. SR equations are available for acceleration. The principle of equivalence of general relativity says that acceleration is equivalent to gravity. So those equations of SR will work for a uniform gravitational field, like when you throw something upward on Earth and track its distance from you over time. That's what he told me.
 
That's not really true, I learned. SR equations are available for acceleration.
Not gravitational acceleration, it is acceleration due to things like rocket thrust, electromagnetic forces etc. An object moving upwards from the Earth's surface is subject to gravitational forces.

The principle of equivalence of general relativity says that acceleration is equivalent to gravity.
But this is not a catch all statement. Instantaneously you can view acceleration as gravity or vice versa but for a general accelerations you can't use it in such a naive way.

So those equations of SR will work for a uniform gravitational field, like when you throw something upward on Earth and track its distance from you over time.
Not correct. The gravitational field of the Earth is not constant, it decreases as you move further away from it. This is true in both Newtonian gravity and GR. In Newtonian gravity you have $$\Phi(r) = -\frac{GM}{r}$$ which decreases as r increases. The GR case is less straightforward but the space-time around the Earth has the Schwarzchild form and you have $$ds^{2} = g_{00}dt^{2} + \ldots = \left(1- \frac{GM}{r}\right) dt^{2} + \ldots $$ where in the weak field limit you have $$g_{00} \sim e^{2\Phi}$$.

In high school when you work out the trajectory of a projectile you make the assumption the gravitational field is constant because unless you can throw a ball many miles vertically up this simplifications is approximately true. Putting satellites into orbit or launching a probe to Mars requires you to take the varying gravitational field into account. If you're 6400km above the Earth's surface gravity is 1/4 as strong as on the surface. Geosynchronous satellites are 36,000 km above the Earth's surface and gravity from the Earth is about 2% what it is on the surface.

It is possible to approximate the approximation of constant gravitational acceleration only if you are not considering moving much towards or away from the object whose gravity you're feeling. Using normal coordinates in general relativity puts you into an instantaneous SR construction but if you then run through time evolution you'll find this assumption breaks down before too long.

You don't even need to know any relativity to see you're incorrect. If you could always reduce GR to SR then why would we have GR?

That's what he told me.
He, aka your unconscious mind (or whatever dreams are interpreted to be) was wrong. High school level physics wrong. Simple logic wrong. Wrong.
 
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It is possible to approximate the approximation of constant gravitational acceleration only if you are not considering moving much towards or away from the object whose gravity you're feeling. Using normal coordinates in general relativity puts you into an instantaneous SR construction but if you then run through time evolution you'll find this assumption breaks down before too long.

You don't even need to know any relativity to see you're incorrect. If you could always reduce GR to SR then why would we have GR?
Your first paragraph is correct. But an approximation over a short distance and time period is all that's needed in this case, just like that's all that's needed in high school.

A result accurate to 100 significant digits isn't needed to make the case that an object thrown upward at a speed close to the speed of light accelerates away from us as we measure. He showed me that it can then be extrapolated (logically, without using SR) that any free object receding from the Earth at such a speed likewise accelerates away.

Consider this: using Newton's formula for a uniform gravitation field, you can accurately-enough find the final speed of an object dropped a cliff, right? We don't even need the exact final speed in this case, just a finding like "its final speed is greater." (In this case, the finding is "its change in distance over a same change in time is increasing".)
 
Your first paragraph is correct. But an approximation over a short distance and time period is all that's needed in this case, just like that's all that's needed in high school.
You're talking about throwing something close to the speed of light. It'll be out into space and past the Moon's orbit in seconds. That definitely doesn't allow you to make the assumption gravity is constant.

A result accurate to 100 significant digits isn't needed to make the case that an object thrown upward at a speed close to the speed of light accelerates away from us as we measure.
This isn't some tiny correction. As I said, putting a satellite into geosynchronous orbit puts it into a place where gravity is 1/50 what it is on the Earth's surface. If you don't account for that you won't be able to put it into orbit properly.

This isn't even an issue of having to consider relativity, its easily seen from Newtonian gravity, $$F = -\frac{GMm}{r^{2}}$$. Gravitational force F gets small as r increases. A galaxy billions of light years away from us hardly affects us, despite being billions of times more massive than the Sun yet the Moon raises and lowers the oceans twice a day everyday, despite being 1/81 the mass of the Earth.

Also if you're projecting things at close to the speed of light (relative to the Earth) then by definition you'll need to include relativistic corrections as classical mechanics fails to work properly.

[He showed me that it can then be extrapolated (logically, without using SR) that any free object receding from the Earth at such a speed likewise accelerates away.
He's wrong. I've given you the equations which prove that wrong. NASA knows you're wrong else they'd not have landed a man on the Moon. This isn't some difficult to measure things no one has every considered, hundreds of billions of dollars have been spent on space research and development, people have looked into this and what you say is known to be wrong.

Consider this: using Newton's formula for a uniform gravitation field, you can accurately-enough find the final speed of an object dropped a cliff, right?
I didn't say otherwise, because a cliff is very short compared to the size of the Earth. Its possible to measure the gravitational difference between the top of the cliff and the bottom of the cliff, to say its the same is an approximation. In fact this tiny tiny variation has been measured over distances of a few dozen metres in The Pound Rebka Experiment. You're claims are known to be wrong.

We don't even need the exact final speed in this case, just a finding like "its final speed is greater." (In this case, the finding is "its change in distance over a same change in time is increasing".)
Dropping something will make it accelerate downwards. Throw an object upwards and it'll still accelerate downwards. This is an experimentally observed fact. Rockets, balls, cannon balls, photons (redshifting only), other particles. The ballistic motion of rockets is essential to space technology and the construction of intercontinental ballistic missiles, ICBMs.

You are wrong. You didn't know relativity before your dream and since then what you've read you haven't understood, particularly the applications of relativity and mechanics to physics. This is an area of physics very well understood, as it has huge applications in the real world. That 'real world' disagrees with your dream. Just because you're read Wikipedia for 20 minutes doesn't mean you understand it. Do you believe otherwise?
 
You're talking about throwing something close to the speed of light. It'll be out into space and past the Moon's orbit in seconds. That definitely doesn't allow you to make the assumption gravity is constant.
Just because "It'll be out into space and past the Moon's orbit in seconds", why assume that one must measure anything at the height of the Moon's orbit? The whole experiment could be done over the height of a meter.

The results of Newton's equations for a uniform gravitational field can be correct to a certain number of significant digits and for a given experiment, despite that gravity is not uniform. Likewise, SR's equations for uniform acceleration (which replace Newton's for a uniform gravitational field, given the principle of equivalence) can return correct results to a certain number of significant digits for a given experiment. To accurately find whether or not objects thrown upward at close to the speed of light accelerate away from us as we measure (not to be confused with the value for g input into the equation), only a certain number of significant digits are needed and only a small height is needed (even a meter will do; if not, make it a centimeter), so SR's equations work fine.
 
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Oops, missed this one:

Also if you're projecting things at close to the speed of light (relative to the Earth) then by definition you'll need to include relativistic corrections as classical mechanics fails to work properly.
Sure, that's why equations of special relativity are used, and not Newton's.
 
That's not really true, I learned. SR equations are available for acceleration. The principle of equivalence of general relativity says that acceleration is equivalent to gravity. So those equations of SR will work for a uniform gravitational field, like when you throw something upward on Earth and track its distance from you over time. That's what he told me.

I just don't see how this is supposed to lead to objects accelerating away from Earth instead of towards it. The consideration of a uniform gravitational field was the first example I ever learned showing the equivalence principle being combined with SR, and I saw no evidence in the calculations that anyone in any reference frame would measure anything but accelerations in the direction of Earth.
 
I just don't see how this is supposed to lead to objects accelerating away from Earth instead of towards it. The consideration of a uniform gravitational field was the first example I ever learned showing the equivalence principle being combined with SR, and I saw no evidence in the calculations that anyone in any reference frame would measure anything but accelerations in the direction of Earth.
OK, I'll give you the example I was given, which the equations should agree with.

First, answer me this: Do you agree that SR tells us that, in principle, a spaceship could travel from our Solar system to the nearest other star system, say 4 light years away as we on Earth measure, in just one month on the ship's clock?
 
Just because "It'll be out into space and past the Moon's orbit in seconds", why assume that one must measure anything at the height of the Moon's orbit? The whole experiment could be done over the height of a meter.
You arte the one assuming things. You are claiming that the gravitational pull of the Earth is approximately constant over distances of hundreds of thousands of miles. You're wrong. I'm not assuming anything, you are.

The results of Newton's equations for a uniform gravitational field can be correct to a certain number of significant digits and for a given experiment, despite that gravity is not uniform
Yes and you obviously have no clue about how to work out the accuracy of your assumption.

Let's compare them shall we?

1. Assuming gravity is constant, so to raise an object of mass m through a height of h you need E(h) = mgh Joules.
2. Gravity goes like $$F = \frac{GMm}{r^{2}}$$ and to raise an object from the Earth's surface to a height h above the surface is $$E(h) = U(R+h) - U(R) = -\frac{GMm}{R+h} + \frac{GMm}{R}$$

We have that $$g = \frac{GM}{R}$$. We also want to consider 2 different cases, one whee h<<R (you don't raise the object much) and another where h>>R, you raise the object a lot. For the first case

$$\frac{GM}{R+h} = \frac{GM}{R}\left(1 + \frac{h}{R} \right)^{-1} = \frac{GM}{R}(1 - \frac{h}{R} + \ldots \right) = g(1 - \frac{h}{R})$$. Therefore the change in energy is $$E(h) = mgh + \ldots$$

For the second case

$$\frac{GM}{R+h} = \frac{GM}{h}\left(1 + \frac{R}{h} \right)^{-1} = \frac{GM}{h}(1 - \frac{R}{h} + \ldots \right) $$

Now let's compare the approximation you claim is valid with what Newtonian physics actually says. For h<<R you have E(h) = mgh and Newton has E(h) = mgh + ..., so they are approximately correct. This is why you are taught such an approximation in high school, its not too far from the truth provided h/R is small. But what if h/R is big? Then you have the following Newtonian result :

$$E(h) = -\frac{GM}{h}(1 - \frac{R}{h} + \ldots \right) + \frac{GM}{R}$$

In the limit of h->infinity, ie it never coming back and forever going up and up, you have to give it $$\frac{GM}{R}$$ energy. Compare this wiith your claim, E(h) = mgh. If h is infinite you need to provide infinite amounts of energy. This is NOT what Newton says. This is not some minor correction in the 10th significant figure, you're claiming HUGE changes. For instance, escape velocity is the velocity at which an object has sufficient kinetic energy to go up and up and up and never fall back to Earth, it can keep going. If gravity always behaved like mgh escape velocities would not exist, since you could never overcome the gravitational forces of a planet. Escape velocity for a rocket from the Earth is about 11km/s. This would sling the rocket out past the Moon, the Sun, into empty space. By your equations/claims that rocket wouldn't get more than about 60 million kilometres from Earth. We've sent probes out past that distance, we know how gtavity behaves. You're claiming its impossible to do what we've done. This isn't a small correction, you're claiming energies 2, 10, 100, a million times more should be needed.

You are not agreeing with Newton or Einstein or experiment, what you have said is false. You mention Newton's equations for constant gravity but there are no such equations!! Newton's equation for gravity is $$F = G\frac{Mm}{r^{2}}$$, which is dependent on the distance r. Only when you work out how all the particles in a planet or star affect something on the surface and that something doesn't move very much can you even get close to a constant gravitational field. Newtonian gravity is not constant, just as you can only approximate relativistic gravity to be constant when you consider very very little amounts of motion.

Seriously, you're trying to argue physics, which you admit you haven't studied, with someone who has. You're trying to claim things about Newtonian physics and relativity which are false and unlike you I've actually learnt something about them. You're saying "a few sig figs" when you actually have no clue as to the accuracy of your claims or the level of detail already done by physicists.

Likewise, SR's equations for uniform acceleration (which replace Newton's for a uniform gravitational field, given the principle of equivalence) can return correct results to a certain number of significant digits for a given experiment. To accurately find whether or not objects thrown upward at close to the speed of light accelerate away from us as we measure (not to be confused with the value for g input into the equation), only a certain number of significant digits are needed and only a small height is needed (even a meter will do; if not, make it a centimeter), so SR's equations work fine.
No they fucking dont. Unlike you I've actually calculated quantities in GR and I can tell you absolutely categorically that SR doesn't cut it when you consider gravity. Ever use a GPS route finder? It uses GR, it is proof you're wrong.

First, answer me this: Do you agree that SR tells us that, in principle, a spaceship could travel from our Solar system to the nearest other star system, say 4 light years away as we on Earth measure, in just one month on the ship's clock?
That's time dilation. It doesn't tell you the path the rocket should be set on in order to get there, you need to account for gravity to do that and SR cannot do it.

You might not realise this but when you turn on a rocket's engines you generally have to know where to point it in order to get to its destination. I'm sure you're experience it in a car, you have to know which way to drive in order to get to where you want to go. Yes, SR says if you drive quickly your clocks is measure less time but it won't tell you how to get there, which direction to go in. GR does because it tells you how gravity alters the motion of the rocket.

which the equations should agree with.
I know the equations, you are wrong.

You have no clue what physics involves and yet you're stupid enough to think that because you had a dream, a fucking dream, then suddenly you can tell physicists how to do physics. Obviously you weren't the sharpest tool in the shed before your dream if you think that a dream can make you knowledgeable.
 
You arte the one assuming things. You are claiming that the gravitational pull of the Earth is approximately constant over distances of hundreds of thousands of miles. You're wrong. I'm not assuming anything, you are.
I'll stop reading there. I didn't claim that. I specifically said the experiment could be done over the height of a meter, or even a centimeter. You can't prove someone wrong by changing the conditions of the experiment they're proposing. Sorry.
 
I'll stop reading there.
Yes, why listen to someone who does relativity when you can listen to your dreams :rolleyes:

I didn't claim that.
You claimed that approximating to constant gravitational fields is okay, the difference between the actual result and your approximation are in some sig fig down the line. This isn't correct. You claimed that SR agrees with you, that you have calculations you're going over. I know SR, I know it does not agree with you.

Yes, if you do an experiment over a very very short distance you can do this in Newtonian physics. We've done it, you're wrong. Yes, you can pick normal coordinates in GR which removes all first derivatives on the metric to obtain a constant metric but this is NOT the same as if you started your calculations purely in SR. If you could reduce GR to SR any time you considered gravity why even have GR, surely it would be a special case of special relativity. It isn't, its obvious from the names. Special relativity is a special case of a more general model, general relativity.

Is gravity constant over large distances in Newtonian physics? No. Is gravity constant over large distances in GR? No. Can you reduce GR to SR always at a point? Yes. Does this mean you can remove gravity and just use SR? No.

The assumption of gravity being constant requires you to consider only a small region about your point of interest. The deviation from this is measured in terms of the curvature variation. Constant gravity doesn't mean the space can be modelled using SR, it means you can go to normal coordinates which are valid in more than just a small locality about your point of interest. Setting a metric to be constant is not the same as the space being flat, you're picking a nice set of coordinates at that point, moving from it will invalidate your point of view before too long.

I specifically said the experiment could be done over the height of a meter, or even a centimeter. You can't prove someone wrong by changing the conditions of the experiment they're proposing. Sorry.
I have done nothing of the sort. I've pointed out that we've done experiments involving gravity on the Earth's surface, in orbit, in deep space over distances ranging from millimetres to billions of light years, we know a great deal about how it behaves. All experiments and observations disagree with your claim objects accelerate upwards when projected upwards, even by a little bit. You also claimed SR agrees with you. It doesn't. You admit you don't know SR, that it was all in 'your dream' and that you come here for comments. I've given you my comment, based on personal knowledge of relativity and you've ignored it. Why ask for people's comments on how accurate your dreams are if you just dismiss anyone who says "They are inaccurate"?

You talk about sig figs but by your own admission you have no knowledge in these things so what are you basing your claims about sig figs on if you can't do or understand the relevant calculations? Nor are you aware of the experiments and observations relevant to your claims. The Pound Rebka experiments measured the gravitational effects over very short distances. GPS systems measure them over thousands of miles. Pulsar observations measure them over millions of miles. Quasar and supernova observations measure them over billions of light years. The observations do not confirm what you're claiming, they in fact disprove what you're saying.

If you think I'm wrong about this then please do the following :

Describe clearly and precisely an experiment which could be done which is relevant to the effect you're making claims about. Describe what you believe the mainstream models would say about it, what your claims about it are and in each case show your workings which you do to obtain quantitative (ie numerical) results. In doing so please make clear the 'sig fig' variations you're referring to. Also provide the SR calculations which justify your claims about it agreeing with you. Doesn't matter if you haven't 'gone through them', just post them and I'll go through them myself.

If you can't do this then you're unable to justify your claims. In fact you'd demonstrate you're lying about how much you know about mainstream, since you keep saying it says this or that and yet your claims disagree with the mainstream. You're arguing you've gotten new ideas and then trying to imply Newton and SR agree with you. Which is it?

Either you've come here for people's comments or you've come here to simply declare your new ideas. Your openning post implies the former but your unwilling to listen to people who actually know relativity implies the latter.
 
I'll stop reading there.
Yes, why listen to someone who does relativity when you can listen to your dreams :rolleyes:

I didn't claim that.
You claimed that approximating to constant gravitational fields is okay, the difference between the actual result and your approximation are in some sig fig down the line. This isn't correct. You claimed that SR agrees with you, that you have calculations you're going over. I know SR, I know it does not agree with you.

Yes, if you do an experiment over a very very short distance you can do this in Newtonian physics. We've done it, you're wrong. Yes, you can pick normal coordinates in GR which removes all first derivatives on the metric to obtain a constant metric but this is NOT the same as if you started your calculations purely in SR. If you could reduce GR to SR any time you considered gravity why even have GR, surely it would be a special case of special relativity. It isn't, its obvious from the names. Special relativity is a special case of a more general model, general relativity.

Is gravity constant over large distances in Newtonian physics? No. Is gravity constant over large distances in GR? No. Can you reduce GR to SR always at a point? Yes. Does this mean you can remove gravity and just use SR? No.

The assumption of gravity being constant requires you to consider only a small region about your point of interest. The deviation from this is measured in terms of the curvature variation. Constant gravity doesn't mean the space can be modelled using SR, it means you can go to normal coordinates which are valid in more than just a small locality about your point of interest. Setting a metric to be constant is not the same as the space being flat, you're picking a nice set of coordinates at that point, moving from it will invalidate your point of view before too long.

I specifically said the experiment could be done over the height of a meter, or even a centimeter. You can't prove someone wrong by changing the conditions of the experiment they're proposing. Sorry.
I have done nothing of the sort. I've pointed out that we've done experiments involving gravity on the Earth's surface, in orbit, in deep space over distances ranging from millimetres to billions of light years, we know a great deal about how it behaves. All experiments and observations disagree with your claim objects accelerate upwards when projected upwards, even by a little bit. You also claimed SR agrees with you. It doesn't. You admit you don't know SR, that it was all in 'your dream' and that you come here for comments. I've given you my comment, based on personal knowledge of relativity and you've ignored it. Why ask for people's comments on how accurate your dreams are if you just dismiss anyone who says "They are inaccurate"?

You talk about sig figs but by your own admission you have no knowledge in these things so what are you basing your claims about sig figs on if you can't do or understand the relevant calculations? Nor are you aware of the experiments and observations relevant to your claims. The Pound Rebka experiments measured the gravitational effects over very short distances. GPS systems measure them over thousands of miles. Pulsar observations measure them over millions of miles. Quasar and supernova observations measure them over billions of light years. The observations do not confirm what you're claiming, they in fact disprove what you're saying.

If you think I'm wrong about this then please do the following :

Describe clearly and precisely an experiment which could be done which is relevant to the effect you're making claims about. Describe what you believe the mainstream models would say about it, what your claims about it are and in each case show your workings which you do to obtain quantitative (ie numerical) results. In doing so please make clear the 'sig fig' variations you're referring to. Also provide the SR calculations which justify your claims about it agreeing with you. Doesn't matter if you haven't 'gone through them', just post them and I'll go through them myself.

If you can't do this then you're unable to justify your claims. In fact you'd demonstrate you're lying about how much you know about mainstream, since you keep saying it says this or that and yet your claims disagree with the mainstream. You're arguing you've gotten new ideas and then trying to imply Newton and SR agree with you. Which is it?

Either you've come here for people's comments or you've come here to simply declare your new ideas. Your openning post implies the former but your unwilling to listen to people who actually know relativity implies the latter.
 
So... yesterday I awake in early morning, try to get back to sleep when *wham* I'm in a lucid dream, in some guy's office

What relevence is it that the dream was lucid?

. He says he used to be a physicist, apparently dead now but I didn't ask.

A fictonal character in your mind that you interacted with was already dead? I hope you see the dissonance in your statement.

He told me that physics/cosmology on Earth has gone down wrong paths

Why is the opinion of a fictional character in your mind relevant?

, and showed me solutions to some of its big problems. I was there over an hour it seemed. I tried to commit the solutions to memory and wrote down details afterward. (I don't have a formal background in physics but I have read some books on the basic ideas, enough to mostly follow what he said.)

Why is the opinion of a fictional character in your mind relevant?

Anyone wanna hear them or is this frowned upon here?

These were the issues:

* flatness problem
* dark energy
* horizon problem
* quantum gravity dilemma
* information paradox

What relevance does a dream character's opinion have with actual science?
 
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