You put a gun to someones head, while they are sleeping. You pull the trigger, no bullets come out. In an ideal world, have you committed a crime?
Should attempted murder be illegal?
- Thread starter Betrayer0fHope
- Start date
Yes..and attempted murder is illegal.
I view the legal system as a system designed to make bad people reform or keep them out of our society, someone who is prepared to attempt murder is a bad person, therefore attempted murder should be illegal to allow us to either help that person reform or keep them off our streets for good.
I have never understood the legal system to be a form of punishment. It uses punishment, but the goal is not to punish, the goal is to better our society.
I have never understood the legal system to be a form of punishment. It uses punishment, but the goal is not to punish, the goal is to better our society.
Of course, because of the intention and that you did everything necessary to kill, but it didn't happen due to outside interference - bad luck, jammed mechanism of the gun, no bullets, but you thought there were.
Nobody is harmed in any way, how is it fair to jail him? And note I said "In an ideal world.."
Should we also punish those who are very likely to commit a crime also? Even though they have not?
Should we also punish those who are very likely to commit a crime also? Even though they have not?
In the situation of attempted murder, the crime has been committed. It's practically a murder, even though the murderer failed, his goal was murder.
His goal was murder. If I try to kill you using my mind rays, I doubt I'd be jailed, even though I tried to kill you. We jail him because his intention was evil. Why do we not jail those who are very likely to murder people, like in that one movie with those three girls who could see the future, and prevented every murder from happening?
You can't ever harm us, we are always protected with our special hats we wear!
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
If his intention was to kill the person, I don't quite see how he fits into an ideal world.
There's a big difference between walking into a room with a gun and changing your mind and putting a gun to someone's head and pulling the trigger but the gun jams. Imagine you were the victim. He's your roomate. If it wasn't a crime, perhaps you can't even have the guy evicted.
See, you are a victim of a crime. I, personally, would not be able to sleep. I would go through a lot of fear, etc.
It's a crime.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
If someone announced they were going to kill me with mental death rays and then they fail to and move on to other forms of killing, there is problem.
The person who put the gun to someone's head has an excellent chance of success.
And again. The average person is not going to think they got lucky when they are not killed by the brainwaves. They are vastly less victims.
But if the brainwave killer announces he is going to kill me - and does not mention that it will be brainwaves - I will suffer and it is a crime.
I would live in a building with a guy who thinks he can kill with brainwaves. I would not want to live in a building with a guy who thinks its OK to put guns to people's heads and pull the trigger.
Put yourself in the victim's position and you will get the difference.
That's why I said if he were sleeping. In this hypothetical situation, nobody even knows he did it, nobody is harmed, physically or emotionally. Oh and this isn't necessarily what I believe, I just took this side since there is nobody else to argue for it.
To the second half of your post, he never changed his mind. Is there a difference between a man who attempts to kill someone and someone who is planning to kill someone?
To the second half of your post, he never changed his mind. Is there a difference between a man who attempts to kill someone and someone who is planning to kill someone?
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Because we don't have infallible psychics and even the ones in the movie were not infallible so they scrapped the system.
Haha, you saw that movie too? What was it called, I really wanna remember..
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
minority report,
tom cruise
samantha morton
and that great swedish actor whose name escapes me
tom cruise
samantha morton
and that great swedish actor whose name escapes me
OHH!!! lol, so anyways, back to the thread.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
OK, now I'll take betrayer of hopes side in this....
in the US the legal system tries to make it unlikely that an innocent person goes to jail, even if it means that some guilty will get away with a crime. That's the spirit of the system. How can we know, in many cases of conspiracy to commit _______, and attempted ___________ that the person would not have backed out at the last second. I think the pulling the trigger example is not the best one, but if one shows up at a house with a weapon and even takes aim, but is arrested right then. How can we be sure the person would have gone through with it.
Remember that when someone drives really stupidly, but they are lucky, then may get charged with a misdemeanor or nothing or a fine. But if they drive really stupidly and kill a pedestrian it becomes vehicular manslaughter, a serious crime.
IOW we reward luck, not behavior.
in the US the legal system tries to make it unlikely that an innocent person goes to jail, even if it means that some guilty will get away with a crime. That's the spirit of the system. How can we know, in many cases of conspiracy to commit _______, and attempted ___________ that the person would not have backed out at the last second. I think the pulling the trigger example is not the best one, but if one shows up at a house with a weapon and even takes aim, but is arrested right then. How can we be sure the person would have gone through with it.
Remember that when someone drives really stupidly, but they are lucky, then may get charged with a misdemeanor or nothing or a fine. But if they drive really stupidly and kill a pedestrian it becomes vehicular manslaughter, a serious crime.
IOW we reward luck, not behavior.
meant that.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
There might not be. But I have planned things I never would have done. There is a gray area, but leaning in to the sleeping person and pulling the trigger has gone beyond the planning stage. You know Betrayer, I think you raise solid issues, but your examples are too hard to defend. Try to aim for the gray area.
Or tell me to fuck off for being a busybody or ignore my suggestion.