Shifting responiibillity

Quantum Quack

Life's a tease...
Valued Senior Member
A little story I wrote to inspire discussion about the ethics of social buck passing.

For Life

“Has the Jury reached a verdict?”
“The Jury has”
Judge Julian had been on the bench for over 20 years. Apathy and indifference was always a challenge to him. He had seen so much trauma and sadness that he seemed to think of every trial as being yet again another exercise in futility. Within him he recognised a simmering anger that life had forced him into following a path that never yielded success and only ever yielded failure.
“Could the Jury Foreman read the verdict to the court?”
“We have found the defendant guilty your honour”
The foreman announced in a voice loud enough to be heard through out the gallery. The foreman was determined like most on the jury to keep a straight face, showing no visible signs of emotion. After all they were just about to send a young man to the electric chair and did not want to be seen as happy about it.

The court erupted upon the announcement. Families of the victims stood and yelled their agreement and delight at the verdict. Reporters from the major media organisations rushed out of the court to make their phone calls.

As Judge Julian hammered his gavel onto the bench and called for order, he noticed an elderly man sitting silently at the back of the public gallery. He knew that this man was the defendants’ only family. He could see that the man who was the defendants’ grandfather was obviously distressed yet he sat there staring to the front with only a face of sadness expressing his feelings. His faded suit, with frayed edges and food stains down one sleeve indicating his social status.
Judge Julian remembered how many times he had seen such a scene and the futility of his job just gripped his heart like a vice, the jaws of frustration, holding his mind in their tight and overwhelming grip.

He was about to pass sentence on a man who he knew was nothing more than just a product of his society. A man who had killed 3 people as an act of despair. An act of frustration born of years of destitution and neglect
The judge called for quiet in the court and slowly the gallery settled down and a hush was sustained as they waited for his sentence to be handed down.
As he was about to pass sentence something inside the Judge changed and suddenly he knew what he was going to pass as a sentence. Suddenly he knew that he must sentence as he felt to be right and true.

“After hearing all the evidence and listening to all the witnesses, and after recognising the Juries verdict I must now pass sentence on this man.
But before I do I must say that after many years on the bench I have come to realise where the true guilt lies and where society is so happy to pass the blame for it’s lacking to those who suffer because of it.
This man has in my opinion only had one course in his life. Society has ignored him, his life and his actions have been determined by our neglect.
He is even now facing further neglect, as our duty of care has been shown to be lacking.

I therefore sentence the community to a life sentence of penance towards this man. This mans freedom is societies punishment for it’s neglect.

This man is free to go."

As Judge Julian left the bench for his chambers, the court in a state of stunned silence, he knew what he had done was actually resign from the bench. He knew his sentence would be subject to an appeal and he also knew his life in the legal profession was over.
For the first time in many years he smiled at himself and felt a great release from the responsibility of being the chief buck passer for society.
Retirement looked good indeed. "


I guess the question I wanted to explore is about how it is often forgotten how there is a shared responsibility for our actions. It is true that we must ultimately take responsibility for our individual actions but are we to take full responisbility when our actions are so often determined by events beyond our control?

It is a contraversial subject I realise and no doubt it will stimulate comments of the absurdity of its propositions.

It's just that every time a child is left to go hungry or is allowed to be abused, or we turn a blind eye to the tragedy on our streets we somehow then later claim no responsibility for the outcomes of that neglect.

That forcing people to live in poverty both financially and emotionally will somehow avoid our responsibility when one of those impoverished people reacts to what he may percieve as an injustice.

care to discuss? :)
 
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Quantum Quack:

Are not we all abused to certain extents? And do not we have the capacity ways to react? To blame society alone is to neglect the criminal's responsibility.
 
Quantum,
You have hit on one of the two main reasons I can't support the death penalty (though I also can't quite condemn it either).
Parents are responsible (even if not entirely accountable) for their childrens' behavior and upbringing.
As a society, we are turning our backs and sweeping those we failed under the rug.

Just a pedantic point...
I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that the prosecution can not appeal.
The man freed in this story is free.
 
Another point:

We all make choices in life. Choices have consequences. The consequences of certain choices in a society that has laws, is that one might be punished for doing something. If one chooses to do those crimes anyway, one must realize that one will suffer through the consequences if proved guilty.
 
Prince_James said:
Quantum Quack:

Are not we all abused to certain extents? And do not we have the capacity ways to react? To blame society alone is to neglect the criminal's responsibility.

Of course what you have said is very true Prince, and yes I agree that the individual must maintain responsibility for his actions, even if they are a product of his circumstances. The story was more about the absurdity and hypocracy that seems so prevailent in peoples thinking.

Some might argue that the cost of the legal system including prisons and the like are costs associated with social apathy and in a way society is paying for it's neglect.

I guess also my post was steeped in idealism and has certain limitations regarding practicality etc. [The fictional Judge Julian did effectively resign with the handing down of his sentence.]

As One_ Raven has mentioned it is a vexatious issue as to where and how the responsibility should be shared.

In some ways the problem is highlighted in the lyrics of Elvis Presely's "In the ghetto".

Some will say that a person always has the opportunity to make good his life but I wonder if this is in itself a very idealistic notion. That someone who comes from extreme deprivations can somehow perfrom a miracle and pull himself out of the mud that a competitive society has put him in with out the help of that same society.

Someones gain is most often someones loss and the person with the big house and European limo has got there usually at someone elses expense. As we all fight over limited resources [ money, jobs, etc]

any way just thinking out loud....
 
one_raven said:
Quantum,
You have hit on one of the two main reasons I can't support the death penalty (though I also can't quite condemn it either).
Parents are responsible (even if not entirely accountable) for their childrens' behavior and upbringing.
As a society, we are turning our backs and sweeping those we failed under the rug.

Just a pedantic point...
I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain that the prosecution can not appeal.
The man freed in this story is free.
I understand your vexation over the use of the death penalty.

I am almost sure that they would call a retrial because of some "Judge insanity" clause in the legal proceedings laws.....but either way it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this thread.
 
Quantum Quack said:
I am almost sure that they would call a retrial because of some "Judge insanity" clause in the legal proceedings laws.....but either way it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this thread.
A retrial, like an appeal is there for the benefit of the accused.
I am positive that if he is found guilty, regardless of what happened during the case, even if he admitted it later, he would not be retried (though could be retried for perjury).
I am just not entirely sure if that applies the same to sentancing.
Like you said, it doesn't matter for the purpose of this post.

I try to look at the issue as if it was my kid (because, in a sense, it IS).
I could turn my back on him and blame it on him or I could accept accountability and stand beside him.
I find if very difficult, however, to conceive accepting responsibility, and STILL turning my back on him.
At the same time, he is an individual, not a clone of me.
I did my job the best I could, and had to let go with that faith.
I guess my problem, then, is that I most certainly do not think that we, as a society DID do our best, nor are we doing our best now.
Apathetic parents raise shitty kids.
 
An example of what I mean:
A major bank in Australia is cutting back on it's staffing by 30,000 people in one year.
Suddenly 30,000 middle level jobs are lost and most will have severe difficulty in gaining future work. Now statistically a certain percentage are going to be in big trouble, families will fail, and children are going to suffer.
The bank has in it's view paid sufficient compensation, in the form of redundancy payments etc but has not and can not provide the most important thing that people need and that is simply a job.

As companies downsize to increase profitablity, they seems so often to fail to realise the consequences of their actions on society and social structures. Such is the nature of capitalism I guess but then crime and abuse are an outcome that they must also share some responisibility for.

So often self identity is determined by what a person does for a living. And standing in a dole que does nothing to help with that self identity.

again I am just venting I guess and apologise for waffling.......
 
If I am not mistaken the sentence handed down can be appealed by the prosectution as manifestly inadequate given the capital nature of the crime.
He has been found guilty by the Jury and it is only the sentence that is in dispute. 3 murders would be normally have a mandatory penality attached I would think. [ any way this is what I had in mind when I wrote the story - maybe I am mistaken]
 
Quantum Quack said:
The bank has in it's view paid sufficient compensation, in the form of redundancy payments etc but has not and can not provide the most important thing that people need and that is simply a job.
Keep in mind that redundancy payments (called "severance pay" here) is NOT legally requires in America, and very few people under executive level can expect it.
 
I just see that we are really in a state of crisis in that as people are replaced by a little piece of silicon, the pool of jobs available is progressively getting smaller and smaller. In my bank scenario ATM's have replaced people. The Bank makes greater profit because of technological improvements, but in doing so feeds this crisis of pending unemployment levels. The amount of unskilled work in society is virtually non-existent already.

In the other thread you [ One_Raven ] ran about our self destructive evolution, this is one hell of a big issue that is rapidly evolving. The polarisation of the Haves and the have nots" is getting more dynamic. In 50 years having a job is going to be a luxury for a very small percentage of people. How society handles this will determine success or failure.

Or so I think.....
 
Quantum Quack:

Some might argue that the cost of the legal system including prisons and the like are costs associated with social apathy and in a way society is paying for it's neglect.

This is an interesting point, yes, specifically as the First World has not tended towards justice-system reform, nor any social structure change as you allude to.

Some will say that a person always has the opportunity to make good his life but I wonder if this is in itself a very idealistic notion. That someone who comes from extreme deprivations can somehow perfrom a miracle and pull himself out of the mud that a competitive society has put him in with out the help of that same society.

They are given many opportunities even in the ghetto, and there have been main instances of people who have seen where their life was going and chose to value different htings. Just the other day I was talking to one such man, who grew up basically in the Italian mafia here in New York, working as a sort of small-time gangster, getting stabbed, cut, and even shot before he found this girl and she helped him get away from it all. People who desire a change tend to take the opportunities offered to them.

Quantum Quack:

A major bank in Australia is cutting back on it's staffing by 30,000 people in one year.
Suddenly 30,000 middle level jobs are lost and most will have severe difficulty in gaining future work. Now statistically a certain percentage are going to be in big trouble, families will fail, and children are going to suffer.
The bank has in it's view paid sufficient compensation, in the form of redundancy payments etc but has not and can not provide the most important thing that people need and that is simply a job.

Economically, the bank needs to look out for its own interests. You can't expect it to keep those jobs if they aren't profitable.

As companies downsize to increase profitablity, they seems so often to fail to realise the consequences of their actions on society and social structures. Such is the nature of capitalism I guess but then crime and abuse are an outcome that they must also share some responisibility for.

But again, if it isn't profitable, how can they be expected to continue doing it? Reform laws to make them more capable of keeping jobs at home, and you'll have less instances of this.

So often self identity is determined by what a person does for a living. And standing in a dole que does nothing to help with that self identity.

again I am just venting I guess and apologise for waffling.......

This is true. There is a psychological impact on this. However, it is not just shame, but a sense of things being owed, that one -deserves something- simply for existing, that can be an even greater problem.

He has been found guilty by the Jury and it is only the sentence that is in dispute. 3 murders would be normally have a mandatory penality attached I would think. [ any way this is what I had in mind when I wrote the story - maybe I am mistaken]

This is true in most countries and states/provinces that I know of.

I just see that we are really in a state of crisis in that as people are replaced by a little piece of silicon, the pool of jobs available is progressively getting smaller and smaller. In my bank scenario ATM's have replaced people. The Bank makes greater profit because of technological improvements, but in doing so feeds this crisis of pending unemployment levels. The amount of unskilled work in society is virtually non-existent already.

People must change with the times. Unskilled work is no longer profitable, so they must find means to educate themselves. If not, then they are of no use to anyone in general.

In the other thread you [ One_Raven ] ran about our self destructive evolution, this is one hell of a big issue that is rapidly evolving. The polarisation of the Haves and the have nots" is getting more dynamic. In 50 years having a job is going to be a luxury for a very small percentage of people. How society handles this will determine success or failure.

This seems a bit exaggerated. There will always be jobs, just not necessarily jobs that one might want or some jobs one might not be able to attain to. The best thing to assure one's place in society's workforce, is to be as educated as possible. The higher you are educated, the greater the opportunity. Ever hear of an "out of work" Ph.D? No. It's basically unheard of.
 
Prince_James said:
This seems a bit exaggerated. There will always be jobs, just not necessarily jobs that one might want or some jobs one might not be able to attain to. The best thing to assure one's place in society's workforce, is to be as educated as possible. The higher you are educated, the greater the opportunity. Ever hear of an "out of work" Ph.D? No. It's basically unheard of.
Actually yes.
I have known quite a few.
Many more who have menial jobs unrelated to their fields.
Prince, you seem to exist in a world of theory, and somehow unable or unwilling to see the world around you.
That isn't meant to be an insult, please don't take it that way.
It just seems, however, for someone who claims to be a Conservative, and claims Conservatism is a pragmatic point of view you come off as awfully idealistic and optimistic.
You speak like someone who has led a somewhat sheltered life, but I don't believe that is true.
I don't get you.
 
Just a quick point as I have to go.
Not every one is capable of getting a university degree, their IQ Is not sufficient and also the cost of university are prohibitive....jobs that used to be available for unskilled are still needed and will still be needed in the future.

Any way I am off...till later
 
One Raven:

Actually yes.
I have known quite a few.
Many more who have menial jobs unrelated to their fields.

Admittedly, I was exaggerating a bit. But in general, are there many unemployed Ph.Ds? Or will a Ph.D ever really have that difficult of a chance getting some form of job related to his Ph.D or atleast have a better chance at getting a very good job in another field due to his level of education? In general, really intelligent people - and few Ph.Ds are stupid - will not have a difficult time getting gainful employment. Of course, like all others, they may have to sacrifice for this, including moving and other such things.

Prince, you seem to exist in a world of theory, and somehow unable or unwilling to see the world around you.
That isn't meant to be an insult, please don't take it that way.

No insult taken, but might you be able to demonstrate what you mean a bit more?

It just seems, however, for someone who claims to be a Conservative, and claims Conservatism is a pragmatic point of view you come off as awfully idealistic and optimistic.

Again, might you be a bit more specific? This is an interesting point, but I'm not sure what you are referencing.

You speak like someone who has led a somewhat sheltered life, but I don't believe that is true.
I don't get you.

Yes?

Quantum Quack:

Not every one is capable of getting a university degree, their IQ Is not sufficient and also the cost of university are prohibitive....jobs that used to be available for unskilled are still needed and will still be needed in the future.

This may sound callous, but it is true: If you aren't smart enough, then well, you're essentially screwed. The economy is changing, as are the times. Intelligence is counting more and more, whilst unskilled labour is counting less and less. Study hard, work hard, and strive hard, and unless one is strongly mentally deficient, a college degree is probably not outside anyone's boundaries. Apply for finnancial aid, attend community colleges, do courses online, skimp on luxuries, or do anything one needs to get a higher degree of education. Whilst it may be tragic in the transitionary period where a lot of people are suffering from this change, it is simply the way things are now a days. We all have to adapt to the changing aspects of reality.
 
Prince_James said:
Quantum Quack:



This may sound callous, but it is true: If you aren't smart enough, then well, you're essentially screwed. The economy is changing, as are the times. Intelligence is counting more and more, whilst unskilled labour is counting less and less. Study hard, work hard, and strive hard, and unless one is strongly mentally deficient, a college degree is probably not outside anyone's boundaries. Apply for finnancial aid, attend community colleges, do courses online, skimp on luxuries, or do anything one needs to get a higher degree of education. Whilst it may be tragic in the transitionary period where a lot of people are suffering from this change, it is simply the way things are now a days. We all have to adapt to the changing aspects of reality.
Prince what can I say, the whole point of the story seems to have been missed. It is this very attitude shown in the quote above that means that the bulk of society is going to go down the toilet.

Are you oblivious to the problem of an aging population, a situation where there is a severe shortage of university places, and a lowering need even for PH Ds', where the workforce has been shifting to part time and casual states, that full time work is nearly a historical relic that will eventually become the subject of myth and legend. Where more and more persons live their entire lives with out ever holding a full time job nor ever feeling the satisfaction of being free from having to recieve government benefits and charity.

I can only repeat my earlier assertion that the issue of employment is and will become the biggest issue that society faces unless there is a comprehensive change in approach to the issue.

When you find yourself redundant at 45 with another 40 odd years to live in pseudo retirement you will get the idea I guess.
I am not convinced that persons can accumulate enough investment to support a lengthy retirement by the age of 45.
So someone is going to have to foot the bill unless you are going to advocate euthanasia as a solution....
 
I might add that it is also callous for a young man to murder 3 people due to negative societal circumstances.
 
Quantum Quack said:
"He was about to pass sentence on a man who he knew was nothing more than just a product of his society. A man who had killed 3 people as an act of despair. An act of frustration born of years of destitution and neglect."

Perhaps. But that man was also just ONE of many ...yet he, of all of the others, chose to kill three men. All of the other people, in the same situation as the murderer, did NOT kill anyone. Yet, for that ONE act, by that ONE man, the judge is condemning the whole of "society"?

The problem I see is one of determining what you mean by "society"? I.e., if that killer were a product of New York City "society", should the "society" of Los Angeles bear any responsibility? ...or the "society" of Miami?

The concept of "society" is a difficult one and to speak of it in such broad terms is useless and serves no good.

As I've said above, however, there are many people in the poverty-stricken locales with poor education, etc., yet all of them don't resort to murder. That, in my opinion, is the first point that should be discussed. Why didn't all of those others, who were raised in the same environment, NOT resort to murder or violence?

Quantum Quack said:
It's just that every time a child is left to go hungry or is allowed to be abused, or we turn a blind eye to the tragedy on our streets we somehow then later claim no responsibility for the outcomes of that neglect.

Is a resident of California responsible for that child in New York City?

Define the term "society" or give a good working idea of what you mean by it in regard to this post. I don't understand it. For one thing, taking your post in a literal sense, "we" could also be responsible for some murderer in, say, Bangkok, Thailand! How can that be? Who is "we" and who is "...the tragedy of "our" streets..."?

Quantum Quack said:
That forcing people to live in poverty both financially and emotionally will somehow avoid our responsibility when one of those impoverished people reacts to what he may percieve as an injustice.

Who forces them to live in poverty? And do the laws of the nation permit each citizen to "...reacts to what he may percieve as an injustice."? Laws are usually made for all citizens and if one, for whatever reason, breaks that law, he should be held accountable.

Your broad brush strokes make discussing this a difficult, if not impossible task.

Baron Max
 
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