tali89:
For the audience, I would like to re-iterate my claim:
I find it rather strange that you [James R] feel the wording of the poll title is the pertinent issue, rather than the actual sexual harassment that occurred to the men in the example I posted. More curious is that you failed to make such a distinction when another member posted a similar poll with the title "What is the main reason you thank Men behave like they did in the OP video.???". Indeed, you were quick to criticize the collective behaviour of men, rather than quibble over the title of the poll.
Read my very first reply to that thread. I asked "How many of
those men ..." (i.e. the ones in the video from the opening post to that thread). In the same post I wrote "So, what are
these guys really saying ..." I asked "why is it that
these guys egos are so bound up with whether a woman on the street notices them or not?" And I ended that post with "I think this is mostly about
these men making themselves feel powerful and controlling and high-status."
Now, given that I specified the guys in the video no less than 4 times in the first post I made to the thread, whatever made you think I was talking about
all men? Was it not clear from the context that I was restricting my comments to the men in the video?
A little further down, I commented on the poll question, saying "But I think that what makes men do it is a combination of nature and nurture (as with most other complex behavioural traits), so I voted "other" in the poll." The "some men" is implied in this, because clearly not every man harasses women as they walk down the street (as I had already discussed). Notice that my response to that poll was the same as my response to your poll in this thread. There are no double standards - just consistency in my position on sexual harassment.
You need to read my posts more carefully before you criticise me for supposedly holding double standards. Frankly, it makes you look a bit silly.
You used alcohol as an excuse for women behaving badly in regards to sexual assault.
No. In my first reply to the current thread I wrote "This sort of upskirt harassment shouldn't be tolerated." And then there was this from me: "I don't think being drunk is a mitigating factor in sexual assault."
I couldn't be much clearer than that, could I? And you didn't have to look far to find what I thought, seeing as it was in the very post you were replying to.
Please stop the knee-jerk attempts to demonise me, tali89. If you wish to interact with me, try to do so honestly at least. Don't misquote me. Don't put words into my mouth that I didn't say. Don't accuse me of holding the opposite opinion to one that I only just expressed to you.
More importantly, how do you know that all the women engaging in sexual harassment were indeed drunk?
I don't know. Again, in my first reply to this thread I wrote: "In the poll, I voted "other". The "other" would be drunkenness, probably." That is, I applied my brain and drew what I would say is a reasonable conclusion given the information I was given.
Look at the context of your article, tali89. These were
barmen being groped by women
in a bar. Do you think they were all sober? Do you
know they were all sober? Do you think it would be reasonable to assume that at least some of them were not sober?
Are you saying that women only engage in such behaviour when inebriated?
No. If I wanted to say that, I would say it.
You may say that, but then you effectively argue against that contention in the next breath.
Wrong again.
That's a nice bait and switch. I wasn't talking about 'looking' (although ogling is considered sexual harassment by many), but mainly groping and indecent remarks.
If you weren't talking about "ogling", why did you mention it? Some advice: don't mention turtles if you don't want to talk about turtles. It makes things easier for everybody.
I addressed the matter of "fondling" that you also raised along with "ogling". This is your first mention of "indecent remarks", as far as I can tell.
And I'd argue that simply having a sex drive doesn't make one abuse others.
I agree.
So what caused the women in my examples to perpetrate the harassment? Did they have a genetic predisposition towards humiliating others or are women culturally indoctrinated to treat men as sexual objects?
I replied to that question in my previous post. You ignored my response. You'll need to do me the courtesy of reading it and responding to what I wrote if you want to engage with me further on this matter.
I'm looking for a valid explanation as to why women engage in such behavior. I don't consider 'they were drunk' or 'they have a sex drive' to be tenable explanations.
What tenable explanations do you suggest? Or are you mystified as to what might cause such behaviour?
You left another question of mine hanging, and even included it in your reply. It was this: "Also, are you at all concerned about the possible objectification of women? Is objectification bad for both sexes, or just one?" You might like to address that in your next response.
Program revolving around sexual harassment are predominately aimed at teaching males not to engage in harassing behaviour, which establishes a dichotomy that men are the harassers, and women the victims of said harassment.
Most of the time men are the harassers, especially at the more extreme levels of harassment. When it comes to actual sexual assault and rape, women are overwhelmingly the victims and men the perpetrators.
Being the expert in school programmes dealing with sexual harassment that you are, tali89, could you perhaps enlighten us as to what is usually taught in such programmes? A few references to curriculum material would be interesting, too. Thanks.
So if your wife or daughter stuffed her bra to make her breasts look bigger, or wore tight fitting pants to enunciate her buttocks/labia, you wouldn't have a problem with strangers ogling her, pulling cunnilingus faces, or paying her camel-toe sleazy comments?
You're trying to put words into my mouth again. Try to interact politely with others, tali89. Otherwise, you will tend to put them off side early in the interaction, and you won't win many friends.
Before I respond to this, I have a couple of questions for you. First: does "ogling" involve more than looking or staring? I'd like to get to the issue of what you find harassing about ogling, so I need to know how you define that term, and what you think is harassing about it. Second, what is a "cunnilingus face"? That is something I'm not familiar with. Since you obviously are, I hope you can enlighten me.
On the matter of sleazy comments, I would strongly urge you to read my quite extensive and helpful replies in the thread that you linked to in your post above this one. My opinions should be clear enough from that thread. If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask.
Would you teach your daughters to approach strange men and compliment them on their bulge?
No.
Would you teach your sons to approach women in the street and compliment them on their breasts?
You mentioned earlier that you did not consider 'looking' to be sexual harassment.
Correct.