Scientific materials in Buddhism.

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Pachomius

Registered Senior Member
I have been and are still in forums of skeptics, and one observation that I have encountered is that there are skeptics there who profess to be Buddhists and even declare that Buddhism has scientific grounding.

What do the guys here say, who modesty aside perceive themselves to be and are taken to be of a scientific outlook and with scientific knowledgeability: what materials in Buddhism can be seen to possess scientific grounding?

People who know me in skeptics' forums, I am glad to meet you here also.


Pachomius
 
Hello,
The most compelling similarity is the emphasis on experimentation and personal verification of Buddha's claims, rather than faith.
 
spidergoat said:
Hello,
The most compelling similarity is the emphasis on experimentation and personal verification of Buddha's claims, rather than faith.
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Can we have an example of Buddha's claims which we can experiment on and thereby verify it's factuality and effectivity?

Pachomius
 
Pachomius said:
Can we have an example of Buddha's claims which we can experiment on and thereby verify it's factuality and effectivity?

Pachomius
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Pachomius,

In Buddhism the principle of kharma (cause and effect) is extended into the human soul.

A simple thought experiment to test this: do living organisms attempt to avoid pain and suffering?
 
Pachomius said:
Can we have an example of Buddha's claims which we can experiment on and thereby verify it's factuality and effectivity?

Pachomius
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I heard some monks can raise their body temperature by thought alone. The benefits are usually pretty subjective, so it does differ from science there.
 
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Knowledge of past rebirths, an example of scientific prowess?

According to testimonies mentioned in Buddhist literature, attainment of enlightenment like that arrived at by Gautama the founder of Buddhism will gift a person with knowledge of his previous rebirths -- no knowledge of future rebirths I imagine, because attainment of enlightenment will entitle you to pass to definitive Nirvana, called Parinirvana whereby and wherein you are dispensed from the cycle of rebirths.

About monks being able to raise body temperature by the power of thought, the usual worry is how to bring down body temperature; a lot of conventional medicine, called scientific medicine and medicine by evidence has to do with bringing down body temperature.

I would suggest to monks to master instead the skill of bringing down body temperature by thought power, that should come in handy next time these monks should be suffering high body temperature as to be in danger of delirium owing to over heating of their body, specially their brain.


Pachomius
 
There is alot of mythology and nonsense attributed to enlightenment. Buddhism advises us to seek enlightenment for ourselves. It's not like suddenly knowing a series of names that describe previous incarnations is a typical attribute of enlightenment. In that sense, Buddhists are more scientific. We don't know exactly what enlightenment is or how everyone experiences it, most of these experiences cannot be described except in a poetic sense, due to limitations of language. When new information presents itself, such as a person able to describe enlightenment in a new way, it is accepted as a new data point.

Often the reports (sutras) of later monks are more important or relevant than Buddha's.
 
Buddhism isn't more or less scientific than any other religion, though these hippie types always make it out to be so. Just go read Buddhists scriptures and see for yourself.

The Buddha taught to seek enlightenment from within, as did Jesus, Krishna, Lao Tzu, Hermes, Thoth, etc....
 
Pachomius,

I'm not a Buddhist (I'm atheist). I find it scientifically intriguing that Buddhists profess that their meditative technique can raise levels of happiness. They've spent millennium trying to optimize these techniques.

It is possible to measure the average size of the hippocampus, a part of the limbic system, and compare non-Buddhist to Buddhist monk. Not so unsurprisingly, the average size of a non-Buddhist is smaller in the aged while the Buddhist monks appear to retain volume. This is of course a correlation - but, it does fit with other studies that suggest the Buddhist meditative trance increases the volume of this limbic structure and thus a person is more likely to retain neural plasticity and cope better with stress and be happy. (Prozac has a somewhat similar effect).

Is this what you were referring to?
Michael
 
The Dali Lama wrote a book about it recently. While there are similarities, and Buddhists acknowledge the power of science, Buddhism isn't exactly scientific. There are aspects of Buddhism that shouldn't be defined, lest people use them in a literal way. The essential teaching of Buddhism can't be captured in a text, or taught by anyone. The best they can do is steer you in the right direction, tell you what not to do.
 
NewScentist had an interesting article about a developmental neural biology and cognitive science conference that the Dali Lama hosts each year. . . .
 
Science is the method, of course with a philosophy of science.

My knowledge of science is the same as when I first came to know science in school.

Science is the acquisition of knowledge by observation and experimentation and testing and replication of the results of testing.

The whole system of Buddhism is not founded upon observation and experimentation and testing and replication of the results of testing.

The thing that is observable and experimentable in Buddhism is Buddhist meditation; in this context one interested in Buddhism as purported being scientific has to find out how meditation the Buddhist kind is observable and experimentable and testable and reduplicatable, so that anyone can effect the results of meditation by following the methods from observation and experimentation established to be productive of the results of Buddhist meditation.

I seem to have read reports of such studies of Buddhist meditation, but the finding is that it is nothing peculiar to Buddhist meditation as to not be available without Buddhist meditation.


I will look up available materials in the web on these researches.


Pachomius
 
I haven't read anyone that says Buddhism is founded on the scientific method in a rigid sense, although it was founded on observation, experimentation, testing, and replication of results. The problem is the results depend on the individual, and the methods aren't absolutely fixed. So, Buddhism is more akin to martial arts, not a description of natural law.

It is most often mentioned in that it is not ideologically incompatible with science, as some religions often are.
 
Not in a rigid sense, no it is not scientific.

spidergoat said:
I haven't read anyone that says Buddhism is founded on the scientific method in a rigid sense, although it was founded on observation, experimentation, testing, and replication of results. The problem is the results depend on the individual, and the methods aren't absolutely fixed. So, Buddhism is more akin to martial arts, not a description of natural law.

It is most often mentioned in that it is not ideologically incompatible with science, as some religions often are.
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Let us concentrate on meditation as a method for attainment of knowledge and/or relief from stress.

I will look up some research based articles or writings in the web on this matter.

I must confess however that I feel Buddhism seems to be overrated in its non-incompatibility with science, just a personal observation, though.


Pachomius
 
Here is a research paper about experiments on Buddhist meditation.

By a happy but fortuitous reliance on Google I came upon this article as the first hit when I entered the phrase "experiment on buddhist meditation," in Google search box, namely:

Web Results 1 - 100 of about 454,000 English and French and Italian and Portuguese and Spanish pages for experiment on buddhist meditation. (0.26 seconds)

Buddhazine Article: Experiments in Buddhist Meditation Again the scope of the present study does not allow us to discuss the long history of Buddhist meditation. Here we will be limited to a few experiments and ...
[link] www-buddhanet-net/tr20-htm [/link]- 56k - Cached - Similar pages

[Sorry, can't post link yet, but you can enter the link by replacing the dash "-" with period "."]
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I have not read the paper carefully, but on a first impression it would seem to me that the benefits which the author seeks to establish as could derive from Buddhist meditation, can certainly in my own experience and observation of my own life and acts be achieved and have been achieved and will be achieved by myself and anyone like myself, just an ordinary person with a working mind and intelligence, without doing Buddhist meditation.

Tell me what you guys think from your reading of this paper.

But I believe I have landed upon something in the study useful to people who have trouble at times in getting to drop into the realm of sleep.

Here, read this paragraph I am reproducing below:

Although satipatthana, vipassana, or Zen can be done in walking or any other position, people usually think that a sitting posture is the best position for a meditator. Anyone's mental picture of a meditator is that of the lotus posture. Several reasons account for the popularity of the lotus posture. The cultural and historical background in India is a major one. It is a habit of Indians to sit in lotus posture. The Satipatthana Sutta [1] itself makes special reference to it as a way of getting ready to do certain meditations like the meditation on breath (anapana sati). Obviously, the meditator's lungs remain fully expanded and spinal cord stays straight when one sits in lotus posture. This helps lungs and brain to function freely. Besides, it is a stable and settled position for the meditator. It is not unusual for a person to fall asleep when the mind becomes calmer and calmer. If it happens the meditator will not get injured, because he or she is steady in his or her sitting position itself. We can imagine what could happen if one falls asleep during the walking meditation. Therefore sitting posture, especially the lotus posture, is a firm and balanced physical position for the meditator.

[Bolding by Pachomius]​
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It is not unusual for a person to fall asleep when the mind becomes calmer and calmer.​
So, one benefit of Buddhist meditation is to get to sleep when one is experiencing a spell of insomnia, but has to get some sleep for tomorrow's big business of living a challenging day as usual in everyman's big adventure of a full life.

However, as everyone knows there are many ways to get to fall asleep; in my one case I count backward from one hundred slowly, 100, 99, 98, 97, 96, 95, 94... snorrrrrrrrrrrrrre. But I must confess that often I fall asleep with the TV on, then on waking up I would turn off the TV and the light and go to sleep again.


Pachomius
 
Falling asleep can be a side effect of the calming during the initial stages of practice. However, the brain wave pattern seen during early sleep stages are structurly different than those seen during meditation. During sleep, theta waves are seen; alternatly, beta waves are present during alert and awake, but relaxed, brain function, and are the main brain waves seen during meditation. (Alpha waves are the alert, awake, and active wave type; delta is seen during the deepest sleep)

Tracking meditation practitioners with EEG's, it is easy to see when they fall asleep - the more experienced the individual, the less theta is seen during practice.
 
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Sauna said:
There is scientific evidence that the heart creates more electromagnetic energy than the brain, confirming the wisdom of the ancients. I don't have any real citations and can't supply links because when I deleted all my posts it made me a noob again and now urls won't show up. And I really shouldn't bother posting the text of the url since other probably aren't capable of copy/pasting
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Since Sauna deleted his post, I added the quote from memory as best I could. I'm sure its accurate because I've never forgotten such things. As far as I can remember.

Citations for "scientific evidence" do not require "links." They need only the author of the peer-reviewed article, the date, the article's name and the name of the peer-reviewed publication it was found in.

But your "scientific evidence" aside, proving that there is more electricity at work in your heart rather than your brain isn't indicative of anything special. There's more electromagnetic radiation given off from my lawnmower than my PDA, but I know which one is more technologically advanced. So, when you say "most active," you're being misleading.

And, whenever someone says "scientific evidence confirms ancient wisdom," everyone's kook alert should go off.
 
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SkinWalker said:
And, whenever someone says "scientific evidence confirms ancient wisdom," everyone's kook alert should go off.
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I disagree. IMO, the simple test of trying and failing (what humans have done every moment since day 1) is a pretty good way to determine what works and what doesn't.

The health benifits of tea, stretching, limited food intake, red wine, etc, etc all have found scientific backing. Same goes for the efficiency of the methods developed to create different tools, goods, and buildings; advanced technology and the scientific method have certainly given us an edge, but our ancestors were no fools, either.

There are, of course, 2 inaccurate legends for every useful one, but I don't think that such a strong reaction to someone crediting "ancient wisdom" is a good thing. Even if 2/3rds of old ideas are innacurate to the point of uselessness, and the remaining 1/3rd is credited to the wrong cause - that 33% still may may hold some pearl of wisedom in its observations.

For instance, even if evil spirits are not circling around a corpse for a week after death, hoping to fly into the mouths of anyone who comes near, the act of avoiding direct, unprotected contact with a possible source of contagion could prevent an infectious outbreak.
Even if the chi in green tea does not add a boost to the overall flow of chi in the body, the low levels of caffine and high levels of anti-oxidents certainly appear to help keep the body healthy.

Asking for further, more structured study should be the reaction to such claims, not kook-alerting.
 
Usefulness of Buddhist meditation.

Buddhist meditation is receptive to scientific examination unlike Buddhist karma, rebirth, and Nirvana.

We can seek the usefulness of Buddhist meditation in three areas of cognition, affection, and bodily conditions and skills.

As regards cognition there is further the area of cognition that is within scientific examination and that beyond or resistant to scientific examination; for example, if Buddhist meditation brings the subject to the information of where to locate a missing person, that is certainly scientifically verifiable, while if it brings a person to the knowledge of what persons he was in previous rebirths, that is beyond or resistant to scientific examination -- Buddhists believe that in effect Gautama from meditation arrived at enlightenment and Nirvana wherein and whereby he knows what he was in previous rebirths.

What about affection? Considering attachment to say a religion or a country as an affection, we can allow that in terms of affections engendered by Buddhist meditation, it can also be examined scientifically, namely, as to whether the affection is due to meditation or not.

Buddhists make up the greater majority in Sri Lanka, whereas Hinduists represented by the Tamils make up a small minority which are fighting for a separate Tamil state. We can ask the question scientifically whether the Buddhist majority for being Buddhist thereby doing Buddhist meditation habitually, they derive a more intensive patriotism. inspiring them to crush the Tamil rebellion; more specifically, do Buddhist soldiers fighting Tamil rebels derive greater zeal from Buddhist meditation contributive to their military campaign to defeat the Tamil rebels?

Lastly, in regard to bodily conditions and skills, we can examine Buddhist meditation scientifically to find out how the body of the subject is more healthy or less, is a better athlete or not; for example, can Buddhist meditation be accredited with the Kungfu prowess of Buddhist martial arts practitioners like Shaolin monks? That question can be answered scientifically.


But Buddhist meditation itself is to my observation not a scientific activity unlike say training in logical thinking.


Pachomius
 
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