SciContest! Why can't matter be made of photons?

[Reiku]

How did I lose my passport? I apparently leave it in a photocopy machine. I tried
to copy it yesterday. Because of this, I had to postpone my trip.

Well, if photon has energy (E=hf, as you said), then the fact that it is massless
perhaps because its mass is converted into energy. But, do photon really have
energy? How to measure its energy? To measure energy is not as simple as
to measure mass.

Oops... it safe though, to get your passport back i mean? That's a real bitch!


The idea that energy has an energy, derives from the work of Newton (i think). For a photon to have a work, there must be some kind of energy attributed to it for it to do work. Even a potential to do work, must have a potential energy for it to do work.

 

[Vern]

Did you know Newton also postulated the idea?

I didn't know that; I'll look for some confirmation and add Newton to the list of us "crackpots" who suspect that photons comprise all physical reality.

 

[Reiku]

Yes... here it is my friend:

„Are not gross Bodies and Light convertible into one another, and may not Bodies receive much of their Activity from the particles of Light which enter their Composition?
The changing of Bodies into Light, and Light into Bodies, is very conformable to the Course of Nature, which seems delighted with Transmutations. [...] And among such various and strange transmutations, why may not Nature change Bodies into Light, and Light into Bodies?“

IsaacNewton - Optics 1704, Book Three, Part 1 Qu.30


Truely a man beyond his times.

 

[Sciencelovah]

Oops... it safe though, to get your passport back i mean? That's a real bitch!


The idea that energy has an energy, derives from the work of Newton (i think). For a photon to have a work, there must be some kind of energy attributed to it for it to do work. Even a potential to do work, must have a potential energy for it to do work.

I hope nobody thinks that I am trolling the thread, but yes I got my passport
back, but I should wait till the copycenter was opened, and so I missed my
train. I made my bf and my friend upset, but fortunately the ticket is flexible.
However we prefer to change the date.

I have a question: can you convert photon into other fundamental particle
(such as electron, proton, neutron, or quark... well thats all the one that I
know) so that the equation is like this:

Energy + photon = Energy + other fundamental particle other than photon

In which the amount of energy on the left side and on the right side of the
equation is the same even if they take different forms?

 

[Cyperium]

Ok, this is the first ever SciContest.

The rules: entry is free. Anyone can participate. No trolling unless it's good, and I reserve the right to judge "good" in a completely arbitrary way. Serious entries are welcomed. The best entry will win a USD$25 gift certificate to Amazon.com, courtesy of me. This means you will have to send me some contact details, but it's ok you can trust me. The contest is over when I say it is, but I will give some notice (say...a week?) before I close the nominations.

To prevent overkill, I will accept three entries per person. No sock puppets.

New Rule: If you can poke holes in someone else's reason, then you should! Of course, someone else can poke holes in YOUR reson, as well.

Finally, the winning entry should be scientifically correct, and it should be phrased in such a way that everyone can understand. If you are a scientist, then you should explain things on the level that laypeople can understand. This is not to say that laypeople cannot enter, and (truth be told) my hope is that a layperson actually wins. If you are an amature, try not to confuse me! The judges will be me, and JamesR (even though he has no idea about this) and one other person who's not a moderator, and who will be chosen in a thread in "About the Members".

Ok, here goes. Keep it clean!

Matter cannot be made of photons. Why?

Why can't mass be made of photons?

Photons are the result of the energy released when mass converts or when something of higher energy enters a lower state (then the energy difference is released as photons to preserve the energy total)

So photons preserves the energy, so then there is no need for preservation in the form of photons, if the energy is already preserved in mass.

You can convert photons to mass, or mass to photons. But photons cannot be mass.

 

[Reiku]

Inzomnia

(Good!!!)

> Now, i have a suspicion that a single photon is not enough to convert into rest mass. You see, in Quantum Chromodynamics, quarks can come together, but actually have in their final state, less mass than what they originally constituted to the production of a proton, let's say. What's happened?

It turns out, that $$E=Mc^{2}$$ plays all the difference. The quarks actually give up energy to come together, and the excess energy is then converted into gluon energy, hence gluons are also Chromodynamical. Another example, at sufficiently high enough temperatures, shich occur naturally inside the interior of stars, light nuclei ''fuse'' together to form heavier ones. The process happens in a series of four steps. Four $$H^{1}$$ nuclei fuss to form a $$H^{4}$$ nucleus, and the mass of the $$H^{4}$$ nucleus is slightly less than four times the mass of the $$N^{1}$$. It is consequently because of this, for an amount of energy is released according to $$E=Mc^2$$.

We may expect that many photons come together to create the birth of an electron and positron. But when the two particles (the normal and anti-pair) come together, only two photons are observed to come out of the annihilation. Again, the equivalance equation may answer why.

 

[Vern]

Why can't mass be made of photons?
Because photons are the result of the energy released when mass converts.
So no mass = no photons.
So if mass was made of photons, there would be no mass.
You can convert photons to mass, or mass to photons. But photons cannot be mass.

Your argument doesn't hold. Photons can just as easily be released when mass converts (Magic?) if mass is made of photons.(No Magic)

 

[Sciencelovah]

Inzomnia

(Good!!!)

> Now, i have a suspicion that a single photon is not enough to convert into rest mass. You see, in Quantum Chromodynamics, quarks can come together, but actually have in their final state, less mass than what they originally constituted to the production of a proton, let's say. What's happened?

It turns out, that $$E=Mc^{2}$$ plays all the difference. The quarks actually give up energy to come together, and the excess energy is then converted into gluon energy, hence gluons are also Chromodynamical. Another example, at sufficiently high enough temperatures, shich occur naturally inside the interior of stars, light nuclei ''fuse'' together to form heavier ones. The process happens in a series of four steps. Four $$H^{1}$$ nuclei fuss to form a $$H^{4}$$ nucleus, and the mass of the $$H^{4}$$ nucleus is slightly less than four times the mass of the $$N^{1}$$. It is consequently because of this, for an amount of energy is released according to $$E=Mc^2$$.

We may expect that many photons come together to create the birth of an electron and positron. But when the two particles (the normal and anti-pair) come together, only two photons are observed to come out of the annihilation. Again, the equivalance equation may answer why.

Are you the same dude who said 0+0 = 1 the other day?

I've never heard of Quantum Chromodynamics until just now, so it's a long
way to go. I guess I am off for now. Ciao.

 

[Reiku]

Here's something (which seems interesting at best). Nothing more than that i'm afraid.

I considered the momentum of a mass a while back, as it is accelerated in any normal function from an initial velocity to a final velocity, such as $$v_{1}$$ and $$v_{2}$$ >

$$\int (Mv) dv (v_{1}=ic \rightarrow v_{2}=c) = 1/2Mv^{2}$$

Where the limits would yield

$$1/2M((c^2)-(1/2Mi^{2}c^{2}))=Mc^{2}$$

This math simple shows that that the energy of motion is an integral of the momentum from an initial velocity, following to a final velocity, and is equal to $$E=Mc^{2}$$, which would suggest that any matter can be seen in the interesting light of mathematics to be moving at the speed of light. If all matter is nothing but light. Of course, these are manipulations at best. But it seems interesting that a particle with rest mass, seen to be constituted from photons themselves, can yield the same constant speed of c, if seen in light from $$E=Mc^{2}$$.

 

[Reiku]

Are you the same dude who said 0+0 = 1 the other day?

I've never heard of Quantum Chromodynamics until just now, so it's a long
way to go. I guess I am off for now. Ciao.

''Are you the same dude who said 0+0 = 1 the other day? ''

I like to take a walk on the wild side.

Bye bye.

 

[Reiku]

I hate this latex system. I hardly ever use it, and when i do, i make plenty of mistakes..

 

[Sciencelovah]

Ok, so, I pop in back for a minute. BenTheMan should have made it free layman area.

I have a question: what is happening in the photosynthesis? Isn't it the conversion
of light (photon) into matter?

Edit: photosynthesis is the conversion of CO2 and H2O into matter by the help
of photon. Anyway, here, isn't photon seen as energy? And since energy is
proportional to mass (& light velocity), why can't matter be made from photons?

 

[Reiku]

Mmmm.... In the photoelectric effect, the electrons are already in the surface plate, so when a photon is absorbed, or even for better terminology, ''hits'' the surface, two electrons scatter from the plates.

 

[Sciencelovah]

Mmmm.... In the photoelectric effect, the electrons are already in the surface plate, so when a photon is absorbed, or even for better terminology, ''hits'' the surface, two electrons scatter from the plates.

Is that a respond to me? I was asking about photosynthesis on the green plantation.

 

[Reiku]

Is that a respond to me? I was asking about photosynthesis on the green plantation.

Oh dear. Sorry. My bad.

 

[ashura]

Ok, so, I pop in back for a minute. BenTheMan should have made it free layman area.

I have a question: what is happening in the photosynthesis? Isn't it the conversion
of light (photon) into matter?

Edit: photosynthesis is the conversion of CO2 and H2O into matter by the help
of photon. Anyway, here, isn't photon seen as energy? And since energy is
proportional to mass (& light velocity), why can't matter be made from photons?

I'm not following, the photons aren't turning into matter. They're being used as energy for a reaction in preexisting materials. It's like asking why if fire is used in creating food, why can't food be made up of fire?

Or at least, that's how my layman brain sees it. I could be completely off for all I know.

 

[AlphaNumeric]

Here's something (which seems interesting at best). Nothing more than that i'm afraid.

I considered the momentum of a mass a while back, as it is accelerated in any normal function from an initial velocity to a final velocity, such as $$v_{1}$$ and $$v_{2}$$ >

$$\int (Mv) dv (v_{1}=ic \rightarrow v_{2}=c) = 1/2Mv^{2}$$

Where the limits would yield

$$1/2M((c^2)-(1/2Mi^{2}c^{2}))=Mc^{2}$$

This math simple shows that that the energy of motion is an integral of the momentum from an initial velocity, following to a final velocity, and is equal to $$E=Mc^{2}$$, which would suggest that any matter can be seen in the interesting light of mathematics to be moving at the speed of light. If all matter is nothing but light. Of course, these are manipulations at best. But it seems interesting that a particle with rest mass, seen to be constituted from photons themselves, can yield the same constant speed of c, if seen in light from $$E=Mc^{2}$$.

Stop posting maths. You know you don't understand it and any maths you make up is just BS.

 

[Reiku]

I love you too.

 

[Reiku]

Ok, so, I pop in back for a minute. BenTheMan should have made it free layman area.

I have a question: what is happening in the photosynthesis? Isn't it the conversion
of light (photon) into matter?

Edit: photosynthesis is the conversion of CO2 and H2O into matter by the help
of photon. Anyway, here, isn't photon seen as energy? And since energy is
proportional to mass (& light velocity), why can't matter be made from photons?

Exactly. Matter can be made of photons. There is overwhelming evidence to support this.

 

[BenTheMan]

Photons are products of excited (heated) atomic matter. The wave frequency (beats or waves per second) of the photons of white light are so high that it can reach 400 to 790,000,000,000,000 waves per second! (Tera-hertz frequency)

With such erratic motions it would be impossible for a photon to become a solid or permanent piece of any molecular or atomic configuration. If in a laboratory, one attempted to forcibly make a photon join in with say a particle of Earth dirt, the photon would just bounce away unable to be joined with the solid matter. It may be the case because the photon cannot be contained in a magnetic field.

Ultimately however, like electricity, we can only know what a photon DOES and not what constructs it, it is I believe, what I'm going to term a "base unit" of the Universe.

(I am a "layman"... have I come close on my statements? )

Ok, second entry, Diode-Man.

Anyone care to critique?