SciContest! Why can't matter be made of photons?

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Vern said:
There's another way to get gravity out of a photon-only universe that uses a universal saturation constant of space that splits between Planck's constant and gravity.
I didn't know that photons have inertial mass, which is what we assign to bodies that are gravitationally interacting, that's in the two "frames" I've heard of, one's a few centuries old though.
 
Vern said:
...photons do attract each other gravitationally.
That's what inertial masses do in Newtonian and Einsteinian space and time - the dynamics as it were.
The two knowns. Yours appears to be an unknown?
 
Vkothii said:
That's what inertial masses do in Newtonian and Einsteinian space and time - the dynamics as it were.
The two knowns. Yours appears to be an unknown?
I'm sure you know that photon's do attract gravitationally. That doesn't imply there's inertial mass there I don't think.

Mike Honcho said:
Light can't escape black holes. Gravity. Photons.
Something wrong with that?

True in theory; I'm not sure the theory is 100% reality. I suspect there is a saturation constant that limits the process so that the singularity that is supposed to exist in Black Holes is never quite reached.
 
I probably don't understand specifically the details of what you guys are debating.
Nonetheless, my point is that photons must be "gravitationally interacting" because they are observed to bend around stars and are trapped within black holes by gravity...right?
 
Mike H said:
..they are observed to bend around stars and are trapped within black holes by gravity...right?
Right.
But not because photons have mass. That would mean they couple to a certain quantum field too, and they don't in any other model I've heard of.
That's been accepted for publication, I mean.
 
You're doing great Mike Honcho; photons do interact by gravity. And you are clear about the Black Hole theory of light being trapped. I was just giving a personal opinion of mine that is different from conventional theory. My personal opinion is that Black Holes do not contain a singularity.
 
Vern said:
photons do interact by gravity.
That doesn't make sense.
What does it mean, in your opinion?

Also, can you expand on what: "trapped in a black hole" means, a little? you mean they are still photons, still in this hole, it's a sort of "photon storage depot"?
 
Vkothii said:
But not because photons have mass.
No argument; but a photon theory advocate would claim that mass is one state of photons, the other state is free photons.
 
You're doing great Mike Honcho; photons do interact by gravity. And you are clear about the Black Hole theory of light being trapped. I was just giving a personal opinion of mine that is different from conventional theory. My personal opinion is that Black Holes do not contain a singularity.

me niether. its my understanding that a singularity is more of a mathematical term anyway. its not the actual "thing" at the center of a black hole. thats undefined by the math (an infinity).
 
Vern said:
mass is one state of photons, the other state is free photons.
No, you've lost me.

How about back one step, in the induction?
When is mass a "state" of photons?
 
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Vkothii said:
That doesn't make sense.
What does it mean, in your opinion?
Photons attract each other gravitationally. I thought every body knew that. It is mainstream theory; I'm not making that stuff up. That is not an opinion of mine; it is an observation :)
 
That doesn't make sense.
What does it mean, in your opinion?

Also, can you expand on what: "trapped in a black hole" means, a little? you ,mean they are still photons, still in this hole, it's a sort of "photon storage depot"?

A black hole is called a black hole because we can't see it because light cannot escape. So ya, i guess it is a photon storage depot. what it does with them i don't know.
 
I do.
Anything with zero mass is effectively accelerated to infinity, beyond the horizon.
IOW, the 'hole' makes light "go" to the visible horizon of the universe, it 'disappears' beyond any light cone we will ever see.
 
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Vkothii said:
How about back one step, in the induction?
When is mass a "state" of photons?
When you are explaining why the existence of mass does not rule out a photon-only universe. Mass can be a state of photons. So its existence is not fatal to photon-only concepts.
 
Mass always has an equivalent which is what it will become, that's expressed as photons, or energy.

That doesn't imply you can run it backwards, if mass does become energy.
It's called entropy, it just does not go backwards.
 
Vkothii said:
That doesn't imply you can run it backwards, if mass does become energy.
It's called entropy, it just does not go backwards.
Sure it does; what do you think all that stuff is that appears downstream of collisions in particle accelerators. Mass is created out of energy.
 
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