Satan is God's right hand, God, who is cruel and jelous

[Avatar]

In the Book of Job, one of the finest works of ancient literature extant, God and Satan are engaged in an obviously amiable dialog about the nature of man. Satan is claiming that if enough calamity befell a believer, he would lose his faith in God. God believes the opposite. To settle the dispute, they arbitrarily select Job, a good and honest man who loves God. With God's specific permission, Satan sets about destroying Job. The important factor here is that Satan had to have God's specific permission each separate time before the numerous temptings and tormentings of Job, and again, that Satan was indeed a respected and welcome member of the Heavenly Court serving God as prosecutor or adversary against man. The story does go on to relate that all was eventually made right with Job, the innocent victim of this divine debate, but even so it does not speak very well of God to have allowed a good and faithful servant to have been subjected to such horrible torment for so many years simply to resolve a philosophical debate between him and his agent Satan. In any case, a reasonable person reading this story would have to conclude that Satan cannot tempt or otherwise do harm to humans without God's specific permission in each individual case.

So we get out of this that Satan and God are debating like friends, they are not in an enternal war or smth. Satan gets permission from God to torture Job (would you like God if the two pals chose you as their test rabbit?).
So all you xtians and other people, why is God thought of better thn Satan if we analyse this particular case?
It is clearly seen here tht God has several human emotions->
1. he wants to win
2. he want's to prove his right
3. he's cruel
4. he likes to debate (just as we)
5. God is very self assured

So why to pray to smone tht is obviously human in his thoughts and actions (god created adam in his image), He has simply bigger power thn humans do. So humans pray to God , because of this power. Why? Power causes fear (it has always been like tht). So humans pray to god out of fear , but to explain theirselves they say tht they pray to god out of love

Pray out of love- this is redicilous. Praying in most cases means asking and you ask smth not because you love the giver, but because you think you can get smth from him.

end conclusion->
God is just like most humans , he is jelous and cruel. He can torture to prove his right. (Hey I have higher moral standarts thn god, I would never do such a thing). He has bigger power thn humans. Those who believe in him are afraid of his power. Xtians are afraid of him, he has scared the hell out of them, but not wanting to admit it, they hide behing the mask of love.

 

[Ekimklaw]

Job

Biblical scholars are divided as to the origin of Job. There is no doubt that it teaches some wonderful lessons about not putting all your focus and attention on things of the Earth, but on eternity. It teaches a great lesson about faithfulness and loyalty, and the rewards for same. Then there is the bothersome image of God and Satan acting like a couple of Greek gods.

Many people do not consider JOB to be a historical account, so much as a kind of "passion play". I tend to believe this. Jesus used parables in his teaching and there is no good reason to think that Job couldn't be a big parable as well.

In reality God would never play games with human life. Nor would he bargain with Satan. Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that he would, or will do this.

By the way, I recommend you read it. It reads like a Shakespeare play!

-Mike

 

[Avatar]

Biblical scholars are divided as to the origin of Job. There is no doubt that it teaches some wonderful lessons about not putting all your focus and attention on things of the Earth, but on eternity. It teaches a great lesson about faithfulness and loyalty, and the rewards for same. Then there is the bothersome image of God and Satan acting like a couple of Greek gods.

I don't care what it teaches- I care for the facts provided there

Many people do not consider JOB to be a historical account, so much as a kind of "passion play".

HAHAHA it's laughable... many people think...... It's bible for the Yeshuas sake, it's the only vertification for your faith you christians have. You use bible to prove anything you want- I look at the facts and analyse what bible has to say, not blindly close my eyes.

esus used parables in his teaching and there is no good reason to think that Job couldn't be a big parable as well.

Yeshua wasn't even born when the book of Job was written.

In reality God would never play games with human life. Nor would he bargain with Satan.

Why the god wouldn't? why not, really I read the bible and see tht he does. How about the great flood, how about the killings of the giants, how about sodom and gomor, how about those people in the desert [40 years - tht is cruel and seems more like an experiment to me, like nowaday scientists isolate a part of population to see it function ]

Nowhere in the Bible does it indicate that he would, or will do this.

and you of course don't considerate the book of Job to be a part of the bible:bugeye: It is indicated, it is told. And god is crueal , jelous and humanlike. God plays ames with people and tht is written in your holy book, so don't argue tht with me.

By the way, I recommend you read it. It reads like a Shakespeare play!

I have read the bible, than you. I liked bahvad gita (sp) better. edit to add- becasue it was more lyrical and it had less brainwashing, but I agree tht bible is very interesting ESPECIALLY EXODUS. now tht one is interesting. in many aspects.

 

[Avatar]

Then there is the bothersome image of God and Satan acting like a couple of Greek god

why does it bother you? it does, yes? but it is in the bible and I don't think you should deny bible, it's the only thing you 've got to backup your beliefs.

it is bothersome because it question your moral standarts of what is good and not. God has no moral, and why should he. Christians don't dare to judge him (as I see it clearly in your case) and those who don't believe in him/she are just as nonexistant to him , because they don't care.

your beliefs are put under a question, you are afraid. fear shows a real christian.

but I hope there is still hope for you

 

[Xev]

Avatar:
Let's analze:

With God's specific permission, Satan sets about destroying Job.

"Job 1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

We also note that God was able to limit Satan's power. Whatever is done to Job is done with the express permission of God.

The important factor here is that Satan had to have God's specific permission each separate time before the numerous temptings and tormentings of Job,

Correct.

and again, that Satan was indeed a respected and welcome member of the Heavenly Court serving God as prosecutor or adversary against man.

I do not see the "serving God as prosecutor or adversary against man".

We do know that Satan was regarded as an adversary of man, but I see no mention of him doing this for God.

We rather see that Satan is not a part of the heavenly court:

"Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

And

"Job 2:2
And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Apparently God didn't know, which rather suggests that Satan is not actually "working for God". He seems to have a fair amount of independance.

"In any case, a reasonable person reading this story would have to conclude that Satan cannot tempt or otherwise do harm to humans without God's specific permission in each individual case."

Simply because such happened once, does not mean it is always the case. In fact, in Christian mythos, Satan is described as

"1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour"

It appears that the Devil is free to tempt anyone he damn near pleases. However, elsewhere in the NT God's (and the Christian's) power over the Devil is asserted.

Oh, BTW, Tony, if you read this, note Jude 1:6 and compare it to the above.

end conclusion->
God is just like most humans , he is jelous and cruel. He can torture to prove his right. (Hey I have higher moral standarts thn god, I would never do such a thing). He has bigger power thn humans. Those who believe in him are afraid of his power. Xtians are afraid of him, he has scared the hell out of them, but not wanting to admit it, they hide behing the mask of love.

As a matter of fact, the best conclusion is that the Bible is an accumulation of myths and there is likely not a God.

But yes, the Judeao-Christian God is rather sadistic.

 

[Avatar]

Xev, you know my thoughts about god/gods. I just don't think tht it is needed for me to struggle the christians proving tht there is no god, it would steel this thread. The intention of this thread is to show tht their God is not as good as they want him/she to be and tht Satan is not such a bad guy after all

And I agree about Satan being more independent from the heavenly court. It is hard for me , because bible in Latvian differs from the english version, so it is hard to fins some good quotes in the instant, I read the bible some 4 years ago.

So we agree Satan is independent from god , but god can give him permission to mess up (destroy) people's lives just for the sake of argument (as you may have noticed a part of this thread is taken from one article I noted you earlyer)

 

[Raithere]

Re: Job

Originally posted by Ekimklaw
Many people do not consider JOB to be a historical account, so much as a kind of "passion play". I tend to believe this. Jesus used parables in his teaching and there is no good reason to think that Job couldn't be a big parable as well.

Without being as derogatory as Avatar: How does one rationally make such a distinction? It always seems that Christians pick and choose which parts of their doctrine they take literally and which to take figuratively based upon their personal conception of what God is like.

~Raithere

 

[Ekimklaw]

Avatar, be careful. You may strain yourself.

I did not say that Job was not part of the Bible. Did I? No... I did not. What I did say is that the book of Job is more of a poetic type of dramatic story with a moral. At the time it was written, it was common to couch real events in a sort of dramatic language, not unlike what is done today ("This is a dramatization based on true events"). The worth of Job as I mentioned was to present this individual, who I believe was almost assuredly a real person, and show how a believer can stand firm in his belief through not bad times, but HIDEOUSLY bad times.

It is a book that was given to humanity by God, through the agency of spirit-inspired human authorship. There is no controversy here. The Bible is not a dry history book. It is a collection of many books some historical, some poetic, some song collections, some drama (some aren't even books at all, but letters) working together to form a whole picture. The so-called "old testement" points toward Jesus, the Gospels tell of Jesus, Acts tells of events following Jesus' resurrection, the letters expound on the teachings of Christ, and Revelation tells of the end of the world and future events in Heaven.

Job has been around for eons. Better people than us have debated it.

-Mike

 

[LIGHTBEING]

The real Kicker in this Book is that if the Christian "God" is so All-Powerful why didn't "he" give Job his children back???? Seems very cruel.

 

[Avatar]

Avatar, be careful. You may strain yourself

don't worry I won't. not so sure about your brain though.

What I did say is that the book of Job is more of a poetic type of dramatic story with a moral

this is again your impertretation. let's look at the facts, though. God had a debate with Satan, they had a nice talk, God authorized Satan to torture Job just to see if Job believed truly in God. With Gods authorization Job's family and his life was destroyed. If any human would have done this we would have said tht he is an insane , cruel filosopher.
Satan was this filosphers right hand and they quite enjoyed their time.

Job has been around for eons. Better people than us have debated it.

who better? I am "better".

It is a book that was given to humanity by God

you said for ourself. it was written by many people. many parts in it are from more ancient texts. written accordind to tht say way of human thinking. no indication tht it was written by some divine being. Better read u-book then, if you want to heas smth so insane tht it could truly be written by a god-gone-mad

The Bible is not a dry history book

yes it's a good bed time story book also

The so-called "old testement" points toward Jesus

one or two lines:bugeye:

I'd really like to have a debate with Satan. Bebelina could bring pot. He would have a lot of interesting things to tell. How was it in reality , for instance, not spoiled by some crazy gospel propoganda.

 

[Xev]

Elkimlaw:

The so-called "old testement" points toward Jesus,

No it dosen't. It points to a Messiah. Jesus did not fulfill any of the descriptions of that Messiah.

Show me a passage, any passage, in the OT that you claim is about Jesus, and I will debunk it.

Avatar:

I'd really like to have a debate with Satan. Bebelina could bring pot. He would have a lot of interesting things to tell. How was it in reality , for instance, not spoiled by some crazy gospel propoganda.

That would be fun. Count me in. We could even invite Tony.

Yeah, I know that you're an athiest. Just a bit of extra piss-taking.

 

[Ekimklaw]

Originally posted by Xev
Elkimlaw:


No it dosen't. It points to a Messiah. Jesus did not fulfill any of the descriptions of that Messiah.

Show me a passage, any passage, in the OT that you claim is about Jesus, and I will debunk it.

Gee Xev... you are one argumentative person. There are many passages in the old testament that point toward Jesus who turned out to be the Messiah. Here's 30 of them:

1. Seed of Woman = Genesis 3:15 = Matthew 1:20
2. Virgin Birth = Isaiah 7:14 = Matthew 1:18
3. Tribe of Judah = Genesis 49:10 = Luke 3:23,33
4. Born in Bethlehem = Micah 5:2 = Matthew 2:1
5. Presented with Gifts = Psalms 72:10 = Matthew 2:1,11
6. Herod Kills Children = Jeremiah 31:15 = Matthew 2:16
7. Shall be Immanuel = Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 1:23
8. Preceded by a Messenger = Isaiah 35:5,6 = Matthew 3:1,2
9. Ministry of Miracles = Isaiah 35:5,6 = Matthew 9:35
10. Enter Jerusalem on a Donkey = Zechariah 9:9 = Luke 19:35-37
11. Resurrection = Psalms 16:10 = Acts 2:31
12. Ascension = Psalms 68:18 = Acts 1:9
13. Betrayed by a Friend = Psalms 41:9 = John 13:21
14. Sold for Thirty Pieces of Silver = Zechariah 11:12 = Matthew 26:15
15. Money Thrown Down in God's House = Zechariah 11:13 = Matthew 27:5
16. Forsaken by His Disciples = Zechariah 13:7 = Matthew 26:56
17. Accused by False Witness = Psalms 35:11 = Matthew 26:59,60
18. Silent Before Accusers = Isaiah 53:7 = Matthew 27:12
19. Wounded and Bruised = Isaiah 53:5 = Matthew 27:26
20. Smitten and Spit Upon = Isaiah 50:6 = Matthew 27:30
21. Mocked = Psalm 22:7,8 = Matthew 27:31
22. Hands and Feet Pierced = Psalm 22:16 = John 20:25
23. Crucified with Thieves = Isaiah 53:12 = Matthew 27:35
24. Lots Cast = Psalms 22:18 = John 19:23,24
25. His Forsaken Cry = Psalm 22:1 = Matthew 27:46
26. Bones Not Broken = Numbers 9:12 = John 19:33-36
27. Side Pierced = Zechariah 12:10 = John 19:34
28. Darkness Over the Land = Amos 8:9 = Matthew 27:45
29. Buried in Rich Man's Tomb = Isaiah 53:9 = Matthew 27:57-60


Happy debunking!

-Mike

 

[Xev]

Elkimlaw:

Gee Xev... you are one argumentative person. There are many passages in the old testament that point toward Jesus who turned out to be the Messiah. Here's 30 of them:

At least I admit it, rather than trying to pick fights and denying that I do.

"1. Seed of Woman = Genesis 3:15 = Matthew 1:20"

Have you been smoking crack or are you under the impression that I am an idiot? What the hell does the announciation have to do with God just cursing the snake/manifestation of the Devil?

"2. Virgin Birth = Isaiah 7:14 = Matthew 1:18"

Mistranslation of the Hebrew word "almah" (young woman) as "bethulah" (virgin).

Also, Isaiah 7:10-13 makes clear that the prophecy is meant to refer to the time in which Ahaz was living.

"3. Tribe of Judah = Genesis 49:10 = Luke 3:23,33"

"49:10
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."

Nothing to do with Jesus.

"4. Born in Bethlehem = Micah 5:2 = Matthew 2:1"

Micah 5:5
And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.
5:6
And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the
land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.

Somehow I missed the part where Jesus leads a military expedition and lays waste to Assyria.....

"5. Presented with Gifts = Psalms 72:10 = Matthew 2:1,11"

Psalm 72:1 makes it clear that they are talking about the son of some king, not the Son of God.

"6. Herod Kills Children = Jeremiah 31:15 = Matthew 2:16 "

Before I bother to look up the verse, you do know that the Slaughter of the Innocents never happened, right?

"7. Shall be Immanuel = Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 1:23"

Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Where's Immanual?

8. Preceded by a Messenger = Isaiah 35:5,6 = Matthew 3:1,2

35:7
And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.
35:8
And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the
unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
35:9
No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found
there; but the redeemed shall walk there:
35:10
And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and
everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

Why don't I remember Jesus doing any of this? Oh, because He didn't!

"9. Ministry of Miracles = Isaiah 35:5,6 = Matthew 9:35"

See above.

"10. Enter Jerusalem on a Donkey = Zechariah 9:9 = Luke 19:35-37"

Yeah, Jesus raised the Jews against Greece alright.

"11. Resurrection = Psalms 16:10 = Acts 2:31 "

Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Where's Jesus?

"12. Ascension = Psalms 68:18 = Acts 1:9 "

Refers to God, not Jesus.

"13. Betrayed by a Friend = Psalms 41:9 = John 13:21"

Not referring to Jesus.

"14. Sold for Thirty Pieces of Silver = Zechariah 11:12 = Matthew 26:15 "

Is in the past tense.

"15. Money Thrown Down in God's House = Zechariah 11:13 = Matthew 27:5"

Past tense.

"16. Forsaken by His Disciples = Zechariah 13:7 = Matthew 26:56"

God is talking about killing prophets, not about Jesus.

"17. Accused by False Witness = Psalms 35:11 = Matthew 26:59,60:"

Out of context, not referring to Jesus.

"18. Silent Before Accusers = Isaiah 53:7 = Matthew 27:12"

In past tense.

"19. Wounded and Bruised = Isaiah 53:5 = Matthew 27:26"

In past tense.

"20. Smitten and Spit Upon = Isaiah 50:6 = Matthew 27:30"

See above, and in first person.

"21. Mocked = Psalm 22:7,8 = Matthew 27:31"

In first person, not referring to Jesus.

"22. Hands and Feet Pierced = Psalm 22:16 = John 20:25 "

See above.

"23. Crucified with Thieves = Isaiah 53:12 = Matthew 27:35"

Past tense.

"24. Lots Cast = Psalms 22:18 = John 19:23,24"

Not talking about Jesus.

"25. His Forsaken Cry = Psalm 22:1 = Matthew 27:46"

See above.

"26. Bones Not Broken = Numbers 9:12 = John 19:33-36"

That is soooo out of context.

"27. Side Pierced = Zechariah 12:10 = John 19:34"

See above.

"28. Darkness Over the Land = Amos 8:9 = Matthew 27:45"

See above.

"29. Buried in Rich Man's Tomb = Isaiah 53:9 = Matthew 27:57-60"

Past tense, although interesting.

 

[Ekimklaw]

Well Xev, you established that you don't understand prophecy. That's cool though. I don't think any less of you!

Nice try...

-Mike