Russiagate

[billvon]

So latest updates -

The eighth person in Junior's meeting that they were trying to conceal was Ike Kaveladze, a senior VP in a Russian company that Trump has partnered with in the past. The special prosecutor is now talking to him.

Spicer flat out contradicted Trump yesterday. Spicer claimed that it was purely a meeting about orphans. "The President has made it clear through this tweet. And there was nothing, as far as we know, that would lead anyone to believe that there was anything except for a discussion about adoption and the Magnitsky Act."

Trump, meanwhile, claimed it was a political meeting, intended to get dirt on Clinton. "Most politicians would have gone to a meeting like the one Don jr attended in order to get info on an opponent. That's politics!"

The amount of intentional deception here is staggering. It's like Trump is trying to ensure that everything he says is a lie.

 

[spidergoat]

Yes, it all makes sense now, Hillary’s campaign staff meetings with Russian operatives, her constant praise of Putin during the run up to the election, and her history of business ties to Russian interests. Trump was right to call her a puppet.

With all of that help with media manipulation from the Russians, it’s mind boggling that Hillary didn’t win the election. I mean Trump got hammered with all that dirt about his personal e-mails, and those pictures of him with the hookers in that Russian hotel room should have sent his candidacy into an electoral tailspin. Thank God we didn’t get stuck with that treasonous crooked bitch Hillary as POTUS, and instead are blessed to have the most honest, intelligent, level headed, hardest working man to ever hold the office.

Good one Capracus! Thank the stars we dodged that bullet and got the bestest, most uncorruptest president in the universe who totally reads books and stuff!

 

[iceaura]

The amount of intentional deception here is staggering. It's like Trump is trying to ensure that everything he says is a lie.

It's a lot harder to pin down fifteen stories than one story.

Ecologists have recently proved this, as another of the demonstrated benefits of flocking or schooling - predators do suffer confusion of focus and lower attack success rates from having their prey present itself as a cloud of separately moving individuals.

It's a category of tactic easily visible in American-authoritarian-corporate-right-that-must-remain-nameless propaganda, once tuned in: the Gish Gallop of the creationists belongs there, the multiple and mutually contradictory justifications for the Iraq War, the twenty five rotating and shifting and mutually contradictory justifications for reducing taxes on the rich, and so forth.

Combine that with one focus of attack at a time, message discipline on the assault (it can change, but remain unitary or bifocal at most), and we have a strategical explanation for

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

It wasn't entirely an accident in Yeat's time either.

 

[iceaura]

Meanwhile, a return to first principles:
http://www.mahablog.com/2017/07/19/one-more-time-follow-the-money/
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a56395/trump-russia-money/

Follow the money.

The eighth man - a good title for the movie of all this, which we hope will be made in English - was a Russian money launderer based in America.

But that's not the best news. The best news is that he has a lawyer, Scott Balber - and Scott has worked for Trump, in a personal capacity, quite recently.

He handled a lawsuit for Trump that involved 5 million dollars supposedly due to Trump.

It was unsuccessful. In fact, this lawyer managed to persuade Trump to withdraw it - thereby earning every nickel he was paid.

It was the lawsuit Trump filed against Bill Maher, for the five million Maher allegedly bet that Trump could not prove his father was not an orangutan. http://www.politico.com/story/2013/02/donald-trump-to-sue-bill-maher-after-bet-feud-087125

And for some reason that just cheers me up no end.

 

[billvon]

The eighth man - a good title for the movie of all this, which we hope will be made in English - was a Russian money launderer based in America.

And all these liberals thought it would be a big deal. But it's not. It's very innocent - a leader in the Trump campaign lied about meeting with a Russian spy and Russian money launderer after being promised sensitive dirt on Hillary Clinton, from a government who stated they wanted to support a Trump victory. (Followed by said government releasing such dirt in an attempt to sway the election.) It's not like he used the wrong email server or something.

 

[Quantum Quack]

All this provides the USA intel services a great opportunity to unravel and reveal a significant link to syndicated crime in Russia and it's links to the USA generally.
What I mean to say is that Trump may pose a significant threat to those syndicates by way of his (campaign team) high profile blundering...

 

[Capracus]

In a wide-ranging interview with The New York Times, the president also accused James B. Comey, the F.B.I. director he fired in May, of trying to leverage a dossier of compromising material to keep his job. Mr. Trump criticized both the acting F.B.I. director who has been filling in since Mr. Comey’s dismissal and the deputy attorney general who recommended it. And he took on Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel now leading the investigation into Russian meddling in last year’s election.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/19/us/politics/trump-interview-sessions-russia.html

How can a dossier that Trump, the fabricator in chief describes as a complete fabrication, give James Comey any kind leverage over him? Trump is implying by this statement that the dossier might actually contain some incriminating material.

 

[joepistole]

In a wide-ranging interview with The New York Times, the president also accused James B. Comey, the F.B.I. director he fired in May, of trying to leverage a dossier of compromising material to keep his job. Mr. Trump criticized both the acting F.B.I. director who has been filling in since Mr. Comey’s dismissal and the deputy attorney general who recommended it. And he took on Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel now leading the investigation into Russian meddling in last year’s election.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/19/us/politics/trump-interview-sessions-russia.html

How can a dossier that Trump, the fabricator in chief describes as a complete fabrication, give James Comey any kind leverage over him? Trump is implying by this statement that the dossier might actually contain some incriminating material.

Trump is doing what he does best, lying and playing the poor me card. Trump is always the perpetual victim, and it has worked for him. He's the superhero perpetual victim.

Trump threatened to fire Mueller. He berated his attorney general which under normal circumstance would cause the attorney general to resign. Let's see if he does. If he doesn't it would a rebuke of The Donald, and that would be extraordinary. Sessions was a senator and one of Trumps first supporters. It will be interesting to watch.

Trump also told the Times he wanted to make take the FBI out of the Department of Justice and put it into the White House effectively making the FBI his own personal police force. That's scary. He also threatened to fire Mueller again if Mueller investigated his finances or the finances of his family.

 

[Schmelzer]

Trump ends covert CIA program to arm anti-Assad rebels in Syria
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...f38140b38cc_story.html?utm_term=.13829c5908c4

This is, of course, very evil acc. to WP, because this is a move sought by Moscow.

The program was a central plank of a policy begun by the Obama administration in 2013 to put pressure on Assad to step aside, but even its backers have questioned its efficacy since Russia deployed forces in Syria two years later.

Note: It was not something criminal, in open violation of international law, to support terrorist gangs, even after they proudly distribute video of cannibalism and a child's headcutting. The only problem was that it became inefficient. The child-head-cutters have lost the battle for Aleppo.

But what to do with a criminal, but also inefficient program? Simply stop it? Not if one follows WP:

“People began thinking about ending the program, but it was not something you’d do for free,” said a former White House official. “To give [the program] away without getting anything in return would be foolish.”

And you wonder why people hate the USA? If they continue even inefficient criminal behavior, simply to blackmail others?

 

[Capracus]

Trump also told the Times he wanted to make take the FBI out of the Department of Justice and put it into the White House effectively making the FBI his own personal police force. That's scary. He also threatened to fire Mueller again if Mueller investigated his finances or the finances of his family.

Likely a subject of Trump's private conversation with Putin at the G-20, on how he plans to turn the FBI into the FSB.

 

[joepistole]

Likely a subject of Trump's private conversation with Putin at the G-20, on how he plans to turn the FBI into the FSB.

Likely..we are told that adoptions were discussed. And of coursed "adoptions" is code word for sanctions relief. Putin wants to see the fruits of his investment. As demonstrated by his actions, Putin wants sanctions relief. I suspect Putin is putting Trump through the wringer. I'm pretty damn sure Putin has a lot of dirt on Trump and Trump knows it. That's probably why Trump wanted a secret Russian communication channel which wouldn't be subject to monitoring by the US government. Trump is being squeezed between a rock and a hard space: Putin on one side and Congress on the other and then he has that pesky special prosecutor running around. Trump's in a tough place. Trump's trying with some success to prevent Congress from enacting further sanctions on Russia.

 

[iceaura]

Note: It was not something criminal, in open violation of international law, to support terrorist gangs, even after they proudly distribute video of cannibalism and a child's headcutting.

Those weren't the rebels being cut off. Supposedly, anyway (the competence of the American assessments and evaluations in that respect is suspect).

The conflation of Islamic jihadists with legitimate rebellion against the very ugly Assad regime is of course a central propaganda meme of Putin's, and you post such memes routinely - including labeling every target of Assad's and Putin's assault "terrorists" - but there is no need here.

Trump's actions can simply be read as cutting losses, accepting the defeat of the good guys, and negotiating the least miserable peace available. That would be sound policy, maybe. But that would require trust and faith in Trump and his intentions - which would be foolish.

 

[Schmelzer]

The conflation of Islamic jihadists with legitimate rebellion against the very ugly Assad regime is of course a central propaganda meme of Putin's, and you post such memes routinely - including labeling every target of Assad's and Putin's assault "terrorists" - but there is no need here.

Here is my beloved propaganda meme of defense paying for the legitimate rebels: "One incident here and there [of headcutting here and there a child] does not make you a terrorist group" https://twitter.com/Souria4Syrians/status/761248812254031872

 

[Capracus]

Likely..we are told that adoptions were discussed. And of coursed "adoptions" is code word for sanctions relief.

Not that

Likely..we are told that adoptions were discussed. And of coursed "adoptions" is code word for sanctions relief. Putin wants to see the fruits of his investment. As demonstrated by his actions, Putin wants sanctions relief.

Not that sanctions weren’t discussed in the second meeting, but can you really trust any account of an event given by Trump? He stated the meeting lasted only 15 minutes, while other witnesses said it lasted an hour, and out of earshot of all but the Russian interpreter. We have to trust this lying jackass for an account of an extended conversation with a traditional foreign adversary? As Trump is fond of saying,“You better hope there are no tapes of our conversation.” If we’re lucky one of the German intelligence services got an audio recording of the meeting, and it’s highly likely the Russians made a recording for themselves.

 

[iceaura]

Here is my beloved propaganda meme of defense paying for the legitimate rebels: "One incident here and there [of headcutting here and there a child] does not make you a terrorist group"

I don't trust the US CIA assessments at all, knowing where they came from in W's War and the long history of US complicity in Saudi (and other) totalitarian oppressions.
But your description of the Syrian conflict as a legitimate Assad government defending itself against terrorists is just crude propaganda - and using headcuttings and cannibalism by psychopaths and jihadists to sell your demonization of a population in revolt against somebody like Assad is bs.

And there is no need - American ineptitude and bad motivation is enough, surely? Unless your actual agenda is defending Putin's association with Assad, rather than with the legitimate rebellion - - -

Because defending Putin is kind of central to your posting here in general. An odd pattern for a libertarian.

 

[Kittamaru]

An odd pattern for a libertarian.

Thing is, it becomes decidedly less odd when you stop thinking of our comrade as a libertarian, and start thinking of him along the lines of a pro-Putin propagandist. It makes several things fall into place.

 

[Schmelzer]

But your description of the Syrian conflict as a legitimate Assad government defending himself against terrorists is just crude propaganda - and using headcuttings and cannibalism by psychopaths and jihadists to sell your demonization of a population in revolt against somebody like Assad is bs.

From point of view of international law, the Assad government is legitimate, even if you don't like it. And that the US supports childheadcutters and cannibals is not my problem, but one of the US. I do not demonize the population, I have no reason for this, given that a sufficiently large part of the population supports Assad.

Because defending Putin is kind of central to your posting here in general. An odd pattern for a libertarian.

No, this is a temporal union. The unipolar world, which would tend toward a world government, which in short time would become totalitarian, is the more serious horror for a libertarian than a multipolar world with several poles and many sovereign states. Of course, not only those big poles, but even small states are yet far from a libertarian ideal, but so what, I'm a realist, and until we have a working global reputational system, to hope for something more would be utopian.

BTW, the way the Russians are working in their reconciliation strategy is quite interesting. They negotiate a lot and try to reach a lot of reconciliation agreements with all the villages taken by the Syrian army. These are contracts. Unfortunately I don't know how the typical contract looks like. But it is reasonable to expect that such a contract is some sort of compromise between the interests of the local guys (who want to rule themselves) and the government (which does not want to have armed resistance in its back). A state based on such a network of local contracts between government and villages would be something conceptually interesting from a libertarian point of view.

One should not forget that Putin has given the Chechens who cooperated with him quite a lot local power. De facto they have independence, in all internal questions. In particular, they almost openly ignore some Russian laws against polygamy. This was successful for Russia, so they try to use it in Syria too.

 

[Quantum Quack]

From point of view of international law, the Assad government is legitimate, even if you don't like it. And that the US supports childheadcutters and cannibals is not my problem, but one of the US. I do not demonize the population, I have no reason for this, given that a sufficiently large part of the population supports Assad.

According to international law isn't Assad due in the Hague for war crimes and crimes against humanity?

Or was that just propaganda too...like your head cutter and cannibal nonsense...

 

[joepistole]

From point of view of international law, the Assad government is legitimate, even if you don't like it. And that the US supports childheadcutters and cannibals is not my problem, but one of the US. I do not demonize the population, I have no reason for this, given that a sufficiently large part of the population supports Assad.

No, this is a temporal union. The unipolar world, which would tend toward a world government, which in short time would become totalitarian, is the more serious horror for a libertarian than a multipolar world with several poles and many sovereign states. Of course, not only those big poles, but even small states are yet far from a libertarian ideal, but so what, I'm a realist, and until we have a working global reputational system, to hope for something more would be utopian.

BTW, the way the Russians are working in their reconciliation strategy is quite interesting. They negotiate a lot and try to reach a lot of reconciliation agreements with all the villages taken by the Syrian army. These are contracts. Unfortunately I don't know how the typical contract looks like. But it is reasonable to expect that such a contract is some sort of compromise between the interests of the local guys (who want to rule themselves) and the government (which does not want to have armed resistance in its back). A state based on such a network of local contracts between government and villages would be something conceptually interesting from a libertarian point of view.

One should not forget that Putin has given the Chechens who cooperated with him quite a lot local power. De facto they have independence, in all internal questions. In particular, they almost openly ignore some Russian laws against polygamy. This was successful for Russia, so they try to use it in Syria too.

Why didn't you post this material in your Syria thread comrade? This has nothing to do with Russiagate. This thread isn't a discussion of Syria. Why are you trolling this thread comrade? This is yet another attempt by you to divert the discussion from Russiagate to something else. Why is that comrade?

 

[Schmelzer]

According to international law isn't Assad due in the Hague for war crimes and crimes against humanity?
Or was that just propaganda too...like your head cutter and cannibal nonsense...

This was propaganda too. Instead, the cannibal as well as the childheadcutters were proud to publish the videos which show their behavior themselves. No need for propaganda, a youtube download app was sufficient. And that the US did not even after this video stop paying them was also their own press conference, see https://twitter.com/Souria4Syrians/status/761248812254031872

Why didn't you post this material in your Syria thread comrade?

The libertarian issue was raised here, and this was a side remark about the libertarian issue. Sorry, but I have a tendency to answer where the issue is raised. Answering one thread in another thread is more difficult, and one does not even know if the answer will be seen. But you are correct, this was off-topic.

So let's add something on-topic. Some news about how the US "liberates" from ISIS: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-fighting-forces-islamic-state-a7848781.html
40 000 civilians dead. Magnitudes more than claimed in Aleppo. And fighting Daesh without caring about civilian casualties is something which has increased under Trump.